Talk:List of African-American firsts

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[edit] List formatting

I deleted the long introduction and left one introductory sentence, as is the norm on Wikipedia. The content I deleted may be appropriate for adding to related articles. Spylab 17:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe two short paragraphs is a "long" intro. See Women in comics for a similar intro. I did try to find Wikipedia list policy by Googling "Wikipedia" and "lists", but found no relevant links. Could you point me to the relevant policy page? Thanks! --Tenebrae 05:17, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about any policy page on the matter. I'm judging this on viewing countless list and article pages. The whole point of having list VS article pages is that list pages are just that, lists - usually spun off from an article that provides the context and in-depth information. Many list pages don't have any introductions at all. Women in comics is supposed to be an article, not a list, since the word list is not in the title. As you can see, there is discussion about that issue, and whether it should be merged with something else. Spylab 14:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I have found the policy, at Wikipedia:List guideline, which says: "All articles should include a lead section, and stand-alone lists are no exception." With all due respect, please do not substitute your opinion ("I'm judging this on viewing countless list and article pages. The whole point of having list VS article pages is that list pages are just that, lists.") for Wikipedia policy. I'm returning the brief lead section as written, because it provides the list's necessary context and because it follows Wikipedia policy and guidelines. Please copy edit or make factual corrections, but do not pare it down to a less useful state simply based on your own preferences. The most important thing to remember is not to lose sight that the best any of us can do for this article is to expand the firsts that it lists.--Tenebrae 14:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Lead section, something I found while reading Wikipedia:The perfect article ... and forget about Googling "Wikipedia" because everything you need is Right Here.) --72.75.105.165 22:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Every claim here needs a source. Without it, the claims should be deleted. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:15, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

For blue-link persons and entities, the sources appear within their individual Wikipedia articles, as per std Wiki practice. --Tenebrae 21:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing standard about it. Other lists have been criticized for lack of citations, and plenty of lists now have citations. See List of bow tie wearers. Noroton

[edit] Jackie Robinson

One commonly cited example is that of Jackie Robinson, who in becoming the first African-American Major League Baseball player

What the heck does that mean? Besides the weird wording, this isn't true. There were African American MLB players prior to Robinson, just not for a long time. Moses Fleetwood Walker, for example, played for the Toledo Mudhens, then a National League team, in 1884. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:21, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete the Jackie Robinson example if you think it's a bad example; it'd be good to substitute another example to make the reason for this list's significance as explicitly clear as possible.

Jackie Robinson, in books and documentaries and a statute in his honor in Jersey City, is technically as the first Major League Baseball player of the "modern era," a standard term used by sportswriters and historians for technical accuracy. I'm not sure I'm following: Are you saying Jackie Robinson's appearance on a major-league team in 1947 wasn't groundbreaking? --Tenebrae 21:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No, not at all, it was clearly groundbreaking, but we need to make it clear in an encyclopedia that there were others before him, even if it wasn't for several years. I believe that "the modern era" refers to post-1900, but don't quote me on that. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The dumbest list

Why is something like this in an encyclopedia? GhostofSuperslum 04:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia has several such lists; please see Wikipedia: Lists. I'm assuming good faith that your objection is to having a list per se and not to having a list of significant African-American achievements. I would note, however, that the tone of your posting and your use of a phrase like "dumbest list" violates Wikipedia rules of civility. --Tenebrae 16:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George Washington Woodbey

Re the uncited claim that in 1902, the tirst African-American member of the Socialist Party of America was George Washington Woodbey: I can find references to him belonging to the party, and to being an important orator for it, but nothing that says he was the first actual member. --Tenebrae 16:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dehyphenated African American

The Wikipedia article is named "African American," with no hyphen ... I just changed over 120 instances on the main page ... please change it when you find it in other aricles as well. --72.75.105.165 22:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The title should have been hyphenated; it was an oversight that it wasn't. According to the AP Stylebook and Strunk & White, a compound modifier is hyphenated, except for adverbs ending in "ly." Wikipedia policy is to follow those guides for grammar and spelling. --Tenebrae 04:16, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Then why don't you move the article named African American to African-American while you're at it? —72.75.105.165 (talk · contribs) 04:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Because "African American" isn't modifying anything. The phrase "African-American man" uses the term as a compound modifier. No biggie. I do notice that though you signed your post as 72.75.105.165 (talk · contribs), the history here records you as User:Dennette. I don't want to open a can of worms, but using sock puppets really isn't cool. --Tenebrae 04:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

D'oh! It's context sensitive ... just got overwhelmed by the sheer number in this one article. <Sigh!> Will have to revisit the pages on my watchlist, but not tonight. --72.75.105.165 08:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Please DO NOT edit other people's posts. That's a breach of Wikipedia policy. I've restored the information you removed from my post above.

Regarding context: "Major League Baseball" is the official name of the organization. "Playing baseball on the major-league level" requires a hyph.

Please note I did work with you on the excellent stylistic change you made. --Tenebrae 14:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First interracial gay kiss on Television

Wouldn't this be Six Feet Under? Yes, it is an HBO show, but it's still television and not film, and should probably count. 209.51.87.93 05:20, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

HBO indeed is TV (no matter what the slogan says!). I'd missed the one that predated Will & Grace's. Do you have an airdate? --Tenebrae 22:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I remember seeing at least one example of a black man kissing another guy on Oz, circa 1999. Kransky 10:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone have the episode, airdate and actors? --Tenebrae 18:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First to hold public office

The article on Alexander Twilight says that he was the first African-American to hold public office (Vermont legislature). But this article says that distinction belongs to John Mercer Langston, who came along much later than Twilight. This site supports the claim for Twilight. Can anyone shed some light on this? Awbeal 14:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How little notable do we want to get?

Before it was deleted, the general List of African Americans had numerous mentions of "firsts" I copied the page in order to add some items here. But that list has some less notable achievements, so when I'm not sure, I'm going to list them below and let other editors decide whether they should go on the page's list and be bold and put them there if they want. I don't have an opinion on whether they should be in or out.Noroton

[edit] Here goes:

Frank J. Anderson (born 1938?), first African-American Sheriff of Marion County, Indiana [1]
Tom Colbert (born 1949), first African-American Oklahoma Supreme Justice^[1]
Barbara Jordan (1936-1996), first African-American woman elected to Texas Senate
Ellis O. Knox (1900-1975), first African-American to earn doctorate on West Coast (1931), educator, civil rights leader
Jeanine McIntosh, first African American female in the Coast Guard to earn the U.S. Coast Guard Aviation Designation
Benjamin Ward (1926-2002), the first African-American New York City Police Commissioner

I think we can all agree this is too random. Most of these things should be on the national level. Events with early dates (for example if this had been in 1838) might be more notable. futurebird 21:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right, but just in case ... Noroton 22:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the size and significance of NYC, for which we list first Af-Am mayor, and given that we list the NYPD's first Af-Am cops, Benjamin Ward seems like he would go on the page. Thoughts? --Tenebrae 18:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Barbara Jordan was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1994; she's an icon for African American Women and beacon of hope who demonstrates just what vision, struggle, and heart can do. So in her case I feel it's fair to give her a sentence in such a great article.I urge you, don't try to remove her based on an arguement of her insufficient importance. Barbara Jordan was one of the Greats, I can tell you that history will not soon forget her.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.133.173 (talk • contribs)

There are many inspirational people like Ms. Jordan, but that's not what the article lists. Unless she were the first African American or African-American woman to win the Presidential Medal of Freedom, she doesn't really fit the list. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Should we have more strategy? For instance, major cities like Baltimore, Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC; New York, Seattle and Los Angeles have all had first African-American mayors, but not all are yet listed here. Cities over 500,000? The cities' sizes and attention give them notability, and the people have been active in national politics and the US League of Mayors, so the men have had bigger than local platforms.--Parkwells (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racism found within the article

There are people mentioned as being the "first" to do something in List of African-American firsts, however they are not African-American. For example: Roxie Roker was one half of the first television interracial couple in 1976, but she is from The Bahamas, not an African nation. Does anyone else think that this is mildly racist? --Alex__0888 1:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Come on! It's just a mixup. How anyone could interpret that as being racist is beyond me! -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.224.117.27 (talk • contribs)

The character, which is what the line refers to, was African-American. The line is not saying the actors were a real-life couple -- it's only talking about the fictional couple.--Tenebrae 18:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Do Afro-Carribean Negro peoples not count for the purposes of this article? They came from Africa originally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.110.198.236 (talk) 18:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If they're living in the U.S. when they accomplish their first, they would certainly fall within the purview of this article. I'm sure there are African-Americans from Haiti, etc., on the list. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:05, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for rename

I have gone through the entire article. Ab initio it states African-Americans are a demographic minority in the United States and the list itself shows a strong leaning towards only US-related milestones. I propose the page be renamed to List of African-American firsts in USA or List of African-American firsts in America or something similar, to better reflect the character of the list. xC | ☎ 05:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't those titles be redundent insofar as the term African American already implies American? --Beaker342 05:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It would, you're right. Hadn't thought of that. Another question - is it neccessary to have the words First African-American church/author/newspaper etc. Those words are repeated again and again for every list item, wouldn't that be redundant as well? Just wondering. xC | ☎ 05:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree it might be redundant, but I think that can be viewed as a safety feature. A lot of newspaper journalists, students writing papers, etc., use Wikipedia, and if a line says simply, for instance, "First West Point graduate" rather than "First African-American West Point graduate", believe me, there will be published accounts of someone African-American listed as the very first West Point graduate ever. I would err on the side of caution, though I'd certainly go along with the consensus if otherwise.--Tenebrae 16:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great edits

Kudos to User:Wysinger and [2] for addedin great and needed footnotes in the lead.

It's quite a good list-article, isn't it?--Tenebrae 15:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obama Not The First Primary/Caucus Winner

Barack Obama isn't the first African-American to win a primary or caucus. Jesse Jackson won five in 1984. Obama is the first to win the Iowa caucus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.60.203 (talk) 18:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Will & Grace

TV.com, Yahoo.tv [3], TwizTV.com [4] and TVRage.com (unlinkable from Wikipedia) all list Steve Gabriel. Only IMDb lists James Sandoval. The NBC site doesn't seem to list individual episode credits in its episode guide. Does anyone have a DVD to check? --Tenebrae (talk) 00:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

it too, am inclined to believe grabriel is the correct writer. (yahoo gabriel) apparently sandoval is a primarily a producer, actor, etc, but i could not find any credits as writer....except imdb. (Baseline StudioSystems) (yahoo sandoval) (dvd box) --emerson7 03:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of European-American firsts

Is there one? If there is, I'm assuming it would be named "List of white firsts", because "African American" always has a counterpart of "white". I don't think there is one, but correct me if I'm wrong. Redsox7897 (talk) 21:02, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction needs resolved re: 1st Af-Am female pilot

There is contradictory reportage from two sources making competing claims. Since this involves not just this article but also the article Vernice Armour, which makes a major point of this claim, I've removed this entry from this article until the competing claims can be sorted out on this talk page and any related pages can be adjusted. I'll put a note at Talk:Vernice Armour as well, suggesting that discussion be centered here.

The Wiki article Vernice Armour cites the Jet magazine article "Vernice Armour, 1st black female combat pilot, serves in Persian Gulf as family copes - National Report", April 14, 2003, by Nicole Walker. It says, "After flight school, Armour took an assignment at Camp Pendleton Naval Air Station near San Diego, CA, and honed her skills piloting the famed Super Cobra. In March 2002, she was recognized as the Department of Defense's lone African-American female combat pilot."

The editor changing the claim to that of Captain Christina Hopper (who has no Wikipedia article) cites the webzine Talking Proud!, which has much less of a publishing history than Jet and may not or may not use professional journalists, but is a niche publication specializing in the subject. The article "'Thumper' Hopper, F-16 fighter jock, Iraqi war vet, instructor pilot", non-bylined, published February 26, 2005, says, "Her squadron deployed in December 2002 to Al Jaber Air Base, Kuwait as part of the 332rd Air Expeditionary Wing supporting Operations Southern watch and Iraqi Freedom, making her the first Air Force African-American female fighter pilot to fight in a war."

I'm wondering whether Armour was the first female Af-Am combat pilot, and Hopper the first female Af-Am combat pilot deployed in a war zone?

Could fellow editors come in and help research/comment on this? --Tenebrae (talk) 15:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Education and academia

Given the heroic efforts for education in the 19th and 20th century, I think there should be more effort to locate first educators, college presidents, etc. This leans toward politicians and sports figures, also military. The example of men who became presidents of historically black colleges inspired generations. More than one of the founders of the sorority Alpha Kappa Alpha earned master's degrees at Columbia University in the early 20th century. (I'll be looking, too.)--Parkwells (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Liberia called an African-American nation?

Isn't this rather colonial? Weren't there Africans living there when African-Americans went there?--Parkwells (talk) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

First, it's a pleasure to have someone like you with such academic-research skills join the editors here! Second, you make a good point, and it's worth noting that an African nation and a African-American nation are two distinct things, with the difference being cultural and not just semantic. African-American culture, like Appalachian culture, for example, is considered indigenous to the United States and did not previously exist — so Liberia at its founding was a unique entity. That makes it historically notable, and certainly a first. Was its founding colonialist or imperialist? By today's standards, probably so. But it's an objective and unique historical first nonetheless. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, I do understand about Liberia; it just struck me oddly. And thanks for your encouragement. Already this has been so interesting, as I was coming across people not thought about in a while, and learning more all the time. Many years of achievement on this list. It's good to see the progress.--Parkwells (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Word that, amigo. Some nice work there you're doing! --Tenebrae (talk) 20:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!--Parkwells (talk) 16:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of Mayors?

Maybe you're right to delete some mayors, but Washington, DC, and cities where African Americans had gone in the Great Migration seemed important to me - also a hugely white majority city like Seattle. DC had not long been a majority black city. Otherwise you could establish a population limit of over one million, say, and take out all that don't qualify. Maybe only LA, Chicago and NY would stay in; would have to check Cleveland's population then.--Parkwells (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking the three largest cities, as you suggest, and adding a "See also" to the page that would take us to "List of first African-American mayors." That would open the door to everything from small towns down South on up, providing an eventually comprehensive and helpful specialty list without making this page excessively long or too minutely parsed. What do you think? --Tenebrae (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(1) Earlier today I removed Walter Washington, the first African-American mayor of Washington DC, because he was DC's first elected mayor of any color. Before 1975, when he was elected, DC's leader was appointed by the President, and he was not a mayor. See List of mayors of Washington, D.C. for the boring details.

Because of the unique situation in DC, I don't think it's appropriate to include Walter Washington's 1975 election as an "African-American first". — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

(2) In general: There are a few very significant "first Black" mayors elected in the early 1970s: Hatcher in Gary, Stokes in Cleveland, and Gibson in Newark. After that, I would include only a small number of major cities such as Atlanta, New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, possibly Detroit (roughly 1 million people), and maybe some others I'm not thinking of at the moment. Beyond that, I personally wouldn't include any others. Just my two cents. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 20:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

List of first African-American mayors would do it. Good idea, because there are interesting stories, for instance, Clarence Lightner was elected mayor in 1973 of Raleigh, NC, the first African-American to be elected in a majority-white southern city. Adding such facts enlarges the picture.--Parkwells (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

We'd have to give some objective reason why Hatcher, Stokes and Gibson are significant. One thing in favor of using population as a cutoff is that's completely objective. If there are quantifiable, special historical reasons for particular individuals, though, I don't think population should be a bar; we just need to watch out for POV subjectivity. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

In 1967, Hatcher and Stokes were elected the first Black mayors of major American cities. Here's a New York Times article that refers to them as "the Jackie Robinsons of contemporary black politics". Here's an excerpt from Eyes on the Prize (the civil rights documentary) about them. At the time, their elections were considered monumental achievements. (Click on the "Press" tab at Eyes on the Prize to see some contemporary news accounts.)

I thought Gibson was elected about the same time, but his bio says it was 1970. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Those are good sources, and I'll take a look and encourage other editors to do so as well. Thank you for providing the links and the context! I, for one, need to learn more; Cleveland seems understandable, but I'm at a loss to understand why Gary, Indiana, is considered a "major American city." --Tenebrae (talk) 03:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL. My wife is from Gary so I've been there many times, and I wonder the same thing. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 03:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I would need to find some data, but calling Gary a major city probably referred both to population and to its near past as a major industrial city and powerful economy at one point. It was a place where industrial workers joined the middle class. I think providing some historic context is a good idea; many of the first African-American mayors arose in northern cities which were destinations in the Great Migration and were significant in the urbanization of African Americans, as well as becoming quite different places due to increased diversity from both the GM and European immigrations. I think they were all majority-white cities then, so part of the excitement was about generating wider support. These were really firsts in the context of the list and both mayors elected in 1967 should be included on the main page, I think. --Parkwells (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The question is (and I still have to view those links — taking brief break form work at the moment) how do we convey this in a brief logline? Saying "First Af-Am mayor of a small industrial city symbolic of the Great Migration" doesn't work.

Playing Devil's Advocate here: Maybe we're looking at this too comprehensively. We can't list every first of everything, obviously. Maybe we need to see this as a handy, quick-search list of quantifiable firsts, and leave the nuanced stuff to articles about the Great Migration, etc., while including Gary (and every other town for which information is available) on the list of first Af-Am mayors (which I'd really like to see us create, though with the Memorial Day weekend and my own deadlines — yep; workin' over the weekend — may be difficult for me to do myself. Do we like the idea, first off?) --Tenebrae (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

(Losing track of the indents) - Yes, I definitely say yes to the mayors' list; it seems to get us out of the difficulties of including too many on this list - although I'd say keep the very first two elected in 1967 (both from white majority northern cities), then also have first AA mayors of NY, Chicago and LA, because those cities are so big.--Parkwells (talk) 16:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you may have also have solved the problem of how to include Gary, Ind. -- "First Af-Am mayor of a white-majority U.S. city." That's quantifiable per the census, and Gary may not be a major city (subjective term though that is) but it is a city. That said, though, who was elected first? Hatcher in Gary or Stokes in Cleveland? By the nature of this list, we only include the first, not the first and the second.

While I'm here (procrastinating! aargh!), could we get a discussion up about first to speak before the American Historical Society? Du Bois was probably the first Af-Am to speak to a lot of groups. If we're not going to list every one, what objective standard can we use to include the AHA and not, say, the Kiwanis or the National Geographic Society or Daughters of the American Revolution, etc.? The first to speak before a world body like the U.N. I would argue is objective -- there are only two or three such world bodies like that, e.g., the U.N. and the World Court -- but how are we to decide what plain old group is to be included and which not? --Tenebrae (talk) 16:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Since Stokes and Hatcher were elected the same year, I say include them both. I think the NY Times article mentioned Stokes first, probably because Cleveland was bigger (and African Americans were only about 35% of the population) but not to mention Hatcher the same year seems wrong. It was a watershed year, because there were two black men elected the same year in major cities.

In terms of Du Bois, he trained as an academic and the American Historical Association was the professional association in his field, with membership then limited (I think) to practitioners. It was much more established than the newer field of sociology, which he also wrote about in his career. The so-called Dunning School at Columbia Univ. became very influential in American history about this time, and was telling the southern white view of Reconstruction (that it was filled with corruption and inept blacks, who mostly didn't have an active role). Du Bois' address of the AHA conference meant a panel of the association had accepted a paper from him and found it worthy of discussing at a national conference, not just that he was invited to lecture. The issues in history were important and what he wrote his masterwork Black Reconstruction in response to. So maybe we can limit it to professional associations.--Parkwells (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

After spending too much time on lists, I'm ready to call it a day - 1967 was when both Stokes and Hatcher were elected, so they were first the same year, like the two African-American women honored the same year on Time's cover. But if people vote for the mayor of Gary just to go to the second list, I don't care any more. It had 100,000 plus in 2000, so even if it had twice that in 1967, it was a medium city (but the largest in IN that's not a county seat.) The first mayor of any city was the year before, 1966 in Springfield, OH, but he was appointed by the city commission. So 1967 is still the important first year for elected mayors and we know more than ever elections are important.--Parkwells (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as Du Bois and the AHA, I still think it was important, because of the people he could come in contact with and who would hear him, but won't press it. I think he's more important than comic books, but that's me. And yes, it's probably too hard to define which speech where. Books and offices are easier.--Parkwells (talk) 19:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Breaking up the sections

Would anybody object if I broke up the centuries into subsections with decades? Having a single TOC entry (and editing section) for the 20th century is a little unwieldy. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea for the 19th and 20th centuries; not so sure about earlier. What does everyone think?

BTW, nice catch on City of NY. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I would agree on just breaking up the 19th and 20th centuries into decade subsections.--Parkwells (talk) 14:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wiki style issue

When African modifies the noun American, in "first African American elected president", the term is not hyphenated. When it is a compound adjective, as in "first African-American general", it is. I was trying to change entries in the list to reflect that, but got caught in an edit conflict. We should do it right on this list.--Parkwells (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You're certainly right about compound modifiers, and while I couldn't find a specific Wiki style guide on the issue, I do see that the article titles Italian American and Japanese American have no hyphs. Seems non-standard to me (like the apostrophe-s The New York Times until recently put in numerical decades, e.g., " It was the 1980's.") but we have to be consistent. So, you are correct, sir! Nice catch! ... and thanks for the discussion. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New TOC

Oooooh...! Niiiiiice! --Tenebrae (talk) 00:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Not so sure about the new decades headers, though. Having 1910 above 1910 doesn't look right. I'm thinking 1910s, 1920s, etc., are clearer and a shade more accurate. What say we? --Tenebrae (talk) 00:42, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

New TOC looks great. As far as the decades headers, look again. Not happy with this, either, as some have some irregularities. I tried 1910s, 1920s, etc. first, but that looked strange, too - somehow that "s" sticking out above the other numbers. Try it out yourselves, and decide which you prefer.--Parkwells (talk) 01:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel very strongly about it, but I prefer the decades (1920s, etc.), although it gets a little awkward with the first decade of the century: 1900s? Any thoughts? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 01:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

It would have to be 1900s. Will change it tomorrow.--Parkwells (talk) 02:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and change it. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 02:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

TOC and headers look great, Malik. Thanks; must have worked on it too long yesterday for anything to look good.--Parkwells (talk) 17:02, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of first African-American mayors

Has been started and can include every one. I've moved some years - mayors need to be identified by the year in which elected, not the year of being sworn in, unless not by election (as in NY this year)--Parkwells (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Cool! I'll go visit!--Tenebrae (talk) 23:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other lists

There should be other lists like this. 76.126.15.78 (talk) 01:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] first African-American presidential candidate?

I thought it was Clennon King in 1960, but now I came across some info indicating it was George Edwin Taylor of the National Liberty Party in 1904; regardless he needs an article. And then I came across mention of Blanche Kelso Bruce, which elsewhere (not in the WP article) says was nominated for, but did not become a candidate for, President. Hmm. See e.g. "Black Blood in the White House" and "Pioneers in Presidential Race." Some editors here may also wish to help with Category:African American United States presidential candidates - in adding people, or maybe turning it into a list so that distinctions can be made between nominees and candidates and so on as well as providing other details. Шизомби (talk) 20:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, this page[5] seems to indicate that in 1848 Frederick Douglass received 1 of 104 votes at the convention of the Liberty Party (United States) for President. That might make him both the first AA VP and P candidate. I don't know if it is the same as the National Liberty Party or if they were related in any way. Шизомби (talk) 20:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Again returning to the above syr.edu page, one of the presidential candidates who ultimately received the vice presidential nomination was C.C. Foote. Foote is identified in The Provincial Freeman: A New Source for the History of the Negro in Canada and the United States by Alexander L. Murray The Journal of Negro History, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Apr., 1959), pp. 123-135 as "a white preacher from Detroit." However, in Martin Delany, Frederick Douglass, and the Politics of Representative Identity By Robert S. Levine 259 n.46 he is identified as a "black minister." If AA, he would be the first prior to Douglass. Шизомби (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)