Talk:Lisbon

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[edit] westernmost capital

I changed the article to reflect that Lisbon is the westernmost capital on mainland Europe, as opposed to all of Europe. Many people forget that Iceland is part of Europe, and Reykjavík is about 12° further west than Lisbon (21°56' W vs 9°11' W). I said Lisbon was the second westernmost capital, but technically this is still not correct. If you don't distinguish it as a national capital, other provincial, territory or autonomous regional capitals may also count; the [Canary Islands], part of Spain, come to mind. --Farnkerl 04:53, 16 July 2005 (UTC).

If you consider the islands, then the Portugeuse islands of Azores, still considered as "european", are the westernmost territory of Europe. --BBird 01:16, 17 July 2005 (UTC)Bold text

Yes, but the capital is not in Azores, so, Reykjavik is still the westernmost capital. Afonso Silva 00:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

....but if you read the (anyway old) original comment, it was referring to the Canary Islands, clearly east from the Azores... --BBird 15:35, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] moved from article

The following was added by an anon to the description of the Vasco da Gama Bridge. I found it incomprehinsible (and probably only marginally encyclopedic), so I cut it. "In 98 a know Detergent brand organized the biggest lunch table on the main plataform of the bridge with 20 km, beeing listed as one of the biggest in world at Guiness Book of Records." If anyone knows what this means to say and thinks it's worth saying, feel free to rewrite it comprehensibly & re-add, or to write it here in Portuguese or whatever else within reason & someone can translate. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:57, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

Good edit. That was part of an ad campaign led for that detergent (*cough*Fairy*cough). IMHO it's worthless for an encyclopedia. Nuno Correia

I understand what that means and it is probably true. However, I don't think that is relevant for an encyclopedia. It might go to the "Curiosities" section but even for that section its relevance is almost null at least for an article about the city of Lisbon. It can go to the curiosities section (if it exists) of an article about that bridge.

Ricardo, from Lisbon ricemagic.blogspot.com

[edit] moved from article

There might be a few more things to be "squeezed" out of the Dutch-language article. My Dutch is not great, so I might have missed something. (Use the article with care, though, there appear to be a few errors there, although it was clearer than the Portuguese on the reconquista.) I chose to leave out some information in that article that seemed to me to be general history of Portugal rather than of Lisbon. I also chose to omit the mention of Bosch and Dürer works in the National Museum. I supposed having Bosches is notable & could be added (preferably with some specifics as to what works), but what major European national museum lacks Dürers? -- Jmabel 07:15, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

lol Rita Guerra is a prominent person? this must be some kind of joke

Well, I suppose it is questionable (I didn't add her) but if you think not, you should probably nominated the article about her for deletion. -- Jmabel 16:36, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The following was added by an anon to the description of the Vasco da Gama Bridge. I found it incomprehinsible (and probably only marginally encyclopedic), so I cut it. "In 98 a know Detergent brand organized the biggest lunch table on the main plataform of the bridge with 20 km, beeing listed as one of the biggest in world at Guiness Book of Records." If anyone knows what this means to say and thinks it's worth saying, feel free to rewrite it comprehensibly & re-add, or to write it here in Portuguese or whatever else within reason & someone can translate. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:02, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] pictures

Glad to have all these pictures, but the current layout is a disaster. It may work at some screen resolution, but it's a sloppy mess on the one I use. There are ways to do this so it scales. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:28, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Lisbon page reform and city flag

I've totally reformed the layout of the pictures and much of the content, mostly when I wasn't registered as TintininLisbon. I was hoping someone could take out the current map and put a map of the municipality or the city itself. I was also wondering if someone could upload the flag and coat of arms of the city. I'm sorry but I don't know how to add or change images.

The current map is highly inaccurate, as it is a map of the Lisbon district and not the city of Lisbon.

[edit] The Moors?

Quite frankly, the Moorish rulers of Lisbon, from 711 to 1147, aren't given enough credit in this article. The rule is concluded in two sentences. Did the city just dissapear and reappear in 1147? Lisbon was a thriving city under Moorish rule, and we need to mention that. Go in depth. Mention how the populace spoke Arabic, some retaining the Romance, and that the majority of the population was Muslim during this time. Somebody needs to do research and write as much about the Muslim rule as is in the Roman rule. Thanks!

Go for it!!! --BBird 23:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, go for it! But sources are important. I had the idea that a great part of Lisbon's population (Muslim and Christian) had been killed by the Crusaders. This should be checked. The Ogre 13:07, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't seem to be the case, as in fact the whole neighbourhood of Mouraria, a very big (by the standards of that period) and populous neighbourhood, seems to have been created in consequence of the ressetlement of the mourish population outside the city's walls. So, expelled from their homes, yes; mass slaughtered, i shouldn't think so.--Pedrojpinto 23:40, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

This section now looks like like almost apologetic for the reconquering of Lisbon, and makes Lisbon the paradise on earth under Moorish rule. I really doubt it is accurate. Some sources and some balance might be of use here.--BBird 00:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not "apologetic" for the reconquest. All I tried to do was make the differences in Lisbon's life then and now jump out at the reader. You have to admit that life was much different then. How was it "paradise on Earth"? Is it because I said that Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peacefully together? That is the truth. It is 100% accurate. You're sounding biased or almost mad that Muslims ever came to Lisbon. Stallions2010 21:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Not mad at all. Muslim rule is part of Lisbon history. I don't know much about

this period but I doubt (i) everything was so peacefull and tolerant, repeated twice or 3 times (ii) that Lisbon florished (no mark is left from the Moorish period except the castle wich existed already and the moorish wall). Which mosques were converted in to churches?. Anyway, this was almost 1000 years ago, and this period is far from being the best period in Lisbon story.Th woule descripriton seemed vague and common place. sorry -- this was my reading. BR. --BBird 22:12, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

See, I just don't see why there is a doubt about the tolerance. Throughout the Moorish kingdoms there was tolerance and peace. Occasionally there were uprisings, but they were very rare. The reason why there is so little Muslim material left is because the Christian reconquerers destroyed everything that they could. It may or may not be the best period in Lisbon history, but I lightly touched on this. The 16th century, when Portugal had many colonies, is looked upon in this article as the Golden Age, not the Muslim period. Can we at least give some credit to the Muslims who were in Lisbon? The Moorish rule left much more than you think. True, there is little physical evidence left. But many placenames exist that are derived from Arabic - the Alfama, for example, is derived from the Arabic "al-hamma". And Lisbon's name itself, pronounced Lishboa in Portuguese, is more directly derived from the Arabic name of the city, al-Ushbuna, than the Latin Olissipo. The azulejos that are so common on streetsides are originally Muslim in style, and the word "azulejo" is derived from an Arabic word. Therefore, credit should be given to the Moors. All reason points to it. Stallions2010 23:30, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
That's not interely tru. The Visigothic name for the city was already Ulishbona.
"The reason why there is so little Muslim material left is because the Christian reconquerers destroyed everything that they could." This was a silly comment. Most written material was in Lisbon and was destroied in the 1755 earthquake. The rest that disapeared was during the Spanish rule, many things were relocated to the capital of the kingdom, and Napoleon Invasion.
Indeed, and anyway, from Olissiponam, it's easy to derive Lisbona (which was the very early name of reconquered city) using regular sound-changes which took place in all of western Romania. If Lisboa derived from al-Ushbuna, the name of the city would probably start with an a (*Alusbua or *Alusbunha) like nearly every other word in Portuguese derived from Arabic. Finally, the zh sound in the modern pronunciation of Lisboa didn't show up until the 17th or 18th century, due to French influence, I think. Wtrmute 01:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I tend rather to think what you wrote above -- factual interesting informative -- would be of bigger value in the article than the generalizations that were inserted in the article. mind you, I agree the Moorish heritage is important, just like the others. Thanks. --BBird 10:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

If I have a doubt, it's justified. Many modern Portuguese don't like the Muslim heritage. They see the Moorish rule as being disastrous and Muslims as uncivilized. An example is at this link: http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2748&PN=1

Based on what do you say that? Based on a forum post of someone that changed from being an over zealous christian to an over zealous muslim?

Anyway, as you wish. I'll put them into the article, as well as the generalizations previously listed. Stallions2010 22:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I sincerely have my doubts that Muslims were "converted" to christianity after the invasions. From what I know most muslims were captured and killed during the Reconquista. THis should be checked.

The muslims had to pay a ransom to be freed and then were free to go to the neighbouring muslim kingdoms. Just like the Christians had to pay a ransom when captured.

[edit] Demographics

I think the demographics section needs references. Especially this sentence: It's expected that the population of the Lisbon Metropolitan Area will increase to some 4,5 million by 2015 and more than 5 million by 2020. It's the fastest increasing region in Portugal.. By 2020 Lisbon will concentrate 50% of the Portuguese population? (I think the population will not increase very much from the current 10,500,000). Where does this come from? I agree that a paragraph about demographics should be included, but with coherent and verifiable data. Afonso Silva 23:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact, a softer reference to specific numbers should include the idea that this is only an estimate, and in no way the most accepted projection.--Pedrojpinto 23:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lisbon as the largest city

Lisbon (...) is the capital and largest city of Portugal.

List of capitals and larger cities by country lists Lisbon as only the second largest city in Portugal. I truly believe Lisbon's bigger than Porto, as stated in this artice, although as I'm not sure, I'll not edit that list. jοτομικρόν | Talk 23:21, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

As a Portuguese, I can assure you that Lisbon is considerably larger than Porto. That was changed in the other article. Afonso Silva 08:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
This is a recent discussion in Portugal, but a somewhat pointless one. The fact is that if a generous criteria for building clusters of urban areas was applied to Northwestern Portugal, then the Porto Urban Agglomeration would be the biggest urban area in Portugal; this would, however, mean that cities like Braga or Guimarães would be considered functional parts of the Porto agglomeration. Even though there is some proximity and normal economical co-dependence, anyone who's ever crossed the region will recognize there are some very sharp breaks in the urban continuum, that lead to the conclusion that Porto should be considered as separate urban entity from what is also known as the "Minho conurbation". There is a very interesting book on the subject, published by DGOTDU (a portuguese governmental agency on regional and urban development) called "As Regiões Metropolitanas Portuguesas no Contexto Ibérico", in which the two portuguese metropolitan areas are given, for i think the first time, an objective and unbiased evaluation of total population, using two european methodolgies (NUREC and GEMACA) and the one used by the US Census Bureau (CPSV) for the american metropolitan areas. The results are (i also show the results for Madrid and Barcelona, for context)
        • NUREC - Lisbon 2,261,458 ; Porto 1,282,283 ; Madrid 4,314,778 ; Barcelona 3,195,918
        • GEMACA - Lisbon 2,463,142 ; Porto 1,547,961 ; - ; -
        • CPSV - Lisbon 2,871,350 ; Porto 2,195717 ; Madrid 5,010,747 ; Barcelona 4,348,272

--Pedrojpinto 00:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torre de Belém

We need a photo of Torre de Belém in this article.

[edit] Snowfall in Lisbon

"Climate" section, "However, snowfall can occur. The latest one happened on January 29th 2006."

I think this two sentences are deceiving for two reasons.

1. On January 29th 2006 it sort of snowed for less than 20 minutes in Lisbon and I don't even know if that was technically snow or just hail. Anyway, whatever came has imediately melted in the ground.

2. Before that moment, it also snowed 60 or 80 year before, I am not sure whether it is 60 or 80. Thus, snow is something that can occur only in extremely rare circumstances. In the last 100 years, if it really, technically snowed at all, the sum of "snowing time" was less than 60 minutes. "snowfall can occur" doesn't lead to the idea that snow can occur 60 minutes or less every 100 years.

I suggest that ""However, snowfall can occur. The latest one happened on January 29th 2006." be removed because "snowfall can occur" is misleading and the other sentence is not relevant: making a register of the two or three times that it "sort of" snowed in the last 100 year in a city doesn't seem relevant enough for an encyclopedia. I believe an encyclopedia should be extensive but can save some words and some reader's time by not including what are mere curiosities of low relevance or including those curiosities in the "Curiosities" section, as long as they are not deceiving.

I was in Lisbon last time it "snowed". I asked some German friends about this snow and all of them said "this is not true snow". Even if it was true, not controversial snow the two arguments above still hold.

Ricardo, from Lisbon ricemagic.blogspot.com

[edit] Education in Lisbon

Another major public university, eventhough its name doesn't start by the word "university" is ISCTE (Instituto Superior de Ciências do Trabalho e da Empresa). This institution is important for many reasons, for instance it is one of the oldest institutions offering undergraduate and graduate Business programs; its organization is different from the other universities, being a kind of experimental project.

A common mistake is saying that the Universidade Católica Portuguesa is a private Portuguese university. It is not private and it is not Portuguese. Its law status is "public foreign university": it "belongs" to Vatican which is a person of public law. I don't have a documental prof of this, I only can state that a friend of mine holding a PhD in law and who also was both an undergraduate and graduate student in UCP told me that.

Finally, it probably is not considered as a major university but Universidade Aberta might deserve a mention in this section: its headquarters are in Lisbon and it is one of the few or the only one university in Portugal that teaches their students by correspondence and using such media as open chanel tv educative broadcasts (usually in RTP2). It is also an important producer of text books that encompass many different fields and that are used by students from other institutions (for instance, from the Goethe-Institut Lissabon).

Ricardo, from Lisbon

[edit] Phoenician foundation of Lisbon?

The following was moved from "Talk:Prehistoric Iberia".

The article Prehistoric Iberia states the following:

The myth of a Phoenician foundation of the city as far back as 1300 BC, under the name Alis Ubbo ("Safe Harbour") is unreal.

However, the wiki article on Lisbon states:

Archeological findings show that a Phoenician trading post existed in the place that, since 1200 B.C., has occupied the centre of the city. The magnificent natural harbour provided by the estuary of the river Tagus made it the ideal spot for a settlement to provide foodstuffs to Phoenician ships travelling to the tin islands (modern Isles of Scilly) and Cornwall. The new city was named Alis Ubbo or "safe harbor" in Phoenician.

Olavius 13:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the reputed Portuguese historian José Mattoso (vide Mattoso, José (dir.), História de Portugal. Primeiro Volume: Antes de Portugal, Lisboa, Círculo de Leitores, 1992 - in Portuguese) there were no Phoenician colonies, settlements or trading post in Portugal, other than the one in Algarve (namely in Tavira). So I believed the story about the Phoenician foundation of Lisbon should be regarded as myth. Even if the Phoenicians did maintain comercial activities with the rest of the modern Portuguese territory (other than the Algarve), and that is why one can find Phoenician pottery and such. At best Lisbon was an ancient autocthonous settlement (what the Romans called an Oppidum) that maintained comercial relations with the Phoenicians. I'll correct the articleon Lisbon. Thank you. The Ogre 13:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New external link

I'm going to add an external link about a photo essay with captions on the old Lisbon's districs of Alfama and Castelo.

http://www.jordibusque.com/Index/Stories/AlfamaCastelo/AlfamaCastelo_01.html

Feel free to revert and discuss. Panex 17:54, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Gloria

You do mention elevador da Gloria in your article, so I figured it might be relevant with a link to a traveller's tale about Gloria, "Lisbon's Own Queen". Keep it if you like. There are no commercial interests behind my initiative. Scribbleman (talk) 07:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

External links policy on Advertising and conflicts of interest states You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, and in this case, you are Terje Raa . Unfortunately your conflict of interest editing involves contributing to Wikipedia in order to promote yourself and your articles. Such a conflict is strongly discouraged. Your contributions to wikipedia under Scribbleman consist entirely of promoting Terje Raa / bootsnall.com / travellady.com and is considered WP:Spam. Looking through your contributions as a whole, the all seem to be Terje Raa/bootsnall.com/travellady.com related only. Please do not continue adding links to your own websites to Wikipedia. It has become apparent that your account are only being used for spamming inappropriate external links and for self-promotion. Wikipedia is NOT a "repository of links" or a "vehicle for advertising" and persistent spammers will have their websites blacklisted. Any further spamming may result in your account and/or your IP address being blocked from editing Wikipedia. Avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines. You're here to improve Wikipedia -- not just to promote yourself, right? --Hu12 13:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Egas Moniz

I notice that in the list of people born in Lisbon has an error Egas Moniz did not born in Lisbon but in Estarreja Aveiro district and he only moved to Lisbon and died there not born.Just making it clearJorgeonfire (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Someone needs to trim the history section as it takes up almost half the article. I created History of Lisbon so any new material should be deposited there. ''[[User:Kitia|Kitia]]'' (talk) 01:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)