Talk:Lisa del Giocondo

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Lisa del Giocondo is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 13, 2008, and in the Did you know? column on October 11, 2007.

This article, or a prior version of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors on 18:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC). The League is always in need of editors with a good grasp of English to review articles. Visit the Project page if you are interested in helping.

Copyedited by Finetooth (talk) – 01:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Proofread by Galena11 (talk) – 18:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:


Contents

[edit] Suggestion

The heading of the picture, "Thought to be Lisa del Giocondo", seems a little awkward to me. Is there any way this could be worded a little more formally, or possible be removed? *Cremepuff222* 21:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Cremepuff, yes perhaps. For now I removed it. -Susanlesch 13:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Seems a lot better now. :) *Cremepuff222* 18:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks again for your suggestion, it really did help a lot, yes. -Susanlesch 00:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very nice!

Having done Giovanni Arnolfini, I toyed briefly with setting up Category:People notable only for being the subject of portraits - Paul Gachet and er.... But an interesting article anyway. The Villani are I think also a notable family. The other-wives-with-prominent-Florentine-connections is a wierd similarity between Lisa and Giovanni A - I bet it would be possible to show they were related! Johnbod 14:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi, Johnbod. Now that camera phones are invented 6 billion people are prospects for your category, at least in some jurisdictions. Giovanni Arnolfini is a nice article. Thanks for pointing it out. -Susanlesch 15:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rucellai

These people say it was the important family: "Francesco iniziò sin da giovane a lavorare nell'azienda di famiglia e nel 1491 sposa Camilla Rucellai appartenente ad una delle migliori famiglie della Firenze dell'epoca." Johnbod 19:12, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Eek, what language is that? *Cremepuff222* 18:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Italian - "Francesco began to work in the family business when young and in 1491 married Camilla Rucellai who came from one of the great families of Florence". Johnbod 18:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Jonbod I know in my head you are right but haven't found a reference (yet) that can be used. -Susanlesch (talk) 05:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
For Johnbod. Hurray, source found, pages 55 and 56 in Pallanti. Camilla was the daughter of Mariotto, a different branch of the family than Giovanni Rucellai. She lived in the Palazzo Rucellai until she married Francesco. -Susanlesch (talk) 02:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Well done! If she lived in the palace, she must have been a relatively close cousin, one would think - I think relatively extended families lived together in those days. Johnbod (talk) 02:42, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This author will be a source for new books and papers now that Lisa is positively the subject of the Mona Lisa again, at least that is a prediction. What a great service he and a few others have done, more than I will probably ever understand. -Susanlesch (talk) 03:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A "see also" section

Hello. I've become rather interested with this page, so I thought I would help out with improving it a bit. I was thinking that we could add a "see also" and possibly "external links" section. Would anyone be willing to add a section like this? *Cremepuff222* 18:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Not me but if you have an idea for improving the article that's good news. The Manual of Style advice for what you mention seems to be '"See also" for one section', WP:LAYOUT, WP:ALSO and WP:EXT. -Susanlesch
Another question. :) When addressing her in the article, should she be referred to as by her last or first name? I've always been taught that the last name should be used for formal essays, but I see in other parts of the article, she is mentioned as "Lisa". I just want to keep everything consistent in the article. *Cremepuff222* 18:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Call her Lisa." Lisa is what the sources say—Müntz, Zöllner and Sassoon and Kemp (from the parts of their works I have seen). Then, Leonardo is Leonardo and Francesco is Francesco. Does that help you? One thing that could be checked for consistency in this article is the name of the painting "the Mona Lisa" or "Mona Lisa"? (I have not looked up what the experts say about that.) -Susanlesch 00:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I suppose I understand your point. Yes, we could nom it for GAC, but I haven't really compared it to the guidelines that. That'll be a good goal to set for this. *Cremepuff222* 00:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Successful good article nomination

I am glad to report that this article nomination for good article status has been promoted. This is how the article, as of January 21, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?:
  1. (a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct. Pass
    (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. Pass
2. Factually accurate?:
  1. (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout, Pass
    (b) provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and Pass
    (c) contains no original research Pass
3. Broad in coverage?:
  1. (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; Pass, dealing with her life and the painting, but adding more details to the latter is vital, but not enough for me to fail its GAN.
    (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style). Pass
4. Neutral point of view?: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias. Pass
5. Article stability? Pass
6. Images?: Very weak pass,but I understand the difficulty or even perhaps the impossibility of acquiring more pictures

Requires tackling the mentioned problems above. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to Good article reassessment. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status, and congratulations.— Λua∫Wise (talk) 15:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Auawise, thank you so much for your time and your review. Seems to me that if one or more of the arts-related WikiProjects decides it can brave the vandalism there to raise the Mona Lisa article to higher quality, and/or if some other sources become available through newly scanned books, some new sources could emerge. I hope there will be an opportunity to make improvements here. Best wishes. -Susanlesch (talk) 19:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig

Saint Francis needs disambiguation. --Randomblue (talk) 22:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for catching this. Fixed. He was Francis of Assisi. -Susanlesch (talk) 05:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name on subsequent references

WP:NAMES says, "After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only", and I don't think that del Giocondo should be an exception. I suggest changing most instances of "Lisa" to "del Giocondo" beginning with "Little is known about del Giocondo's life." I'm bringing this up on the talk page because I see that the name question has been discussed here earlier. The sources who call her "Lisa" may have been following a different style guide, or they may have reduced del Giocondo to Lisa out of habit because she was a woman. In any case, she was del Giocondo and not the painting and not the ideas associated with the painting, and referring to her by her surname in this article would help make those important distinctions more clear throughout. Finetooth (talk) 04:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Hi. Thanks for your comment. Yes, I saw the potential for wanting to apply the MoS in this case, too. Hidden above under 'A "see also" section' is the answer for this case anyway: all four of the experts cited here call her Lisa, and almost without exception. I am sorry but it is not my place to disagree with them. -Susanlesch (talk) 05:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
  • P.S. Hi, again. You seem to have a lot of copyediting credits. Would you think Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Single_name covers Lisa? I looked again in and near MoS and this seems closest: "Sometimes, mostly for names of antiquity, a single word is traditional and sufficient to indicate a person unambiguously." I did write to someone who works with Mona Lisa a while ago to double check this, in case that helps. I think the only place I have ever seen "del Giocondo" in a reliable source was in an Associated Press article hosted at the NYT. P.P.S. I looked these up again. Sassoon called the painting Mona Lisa and the person Lisa five times, Lisa Gherardini six times, and Lady Lisa once (approx. and this is the paper not the book). Müntz used Mona Lisa and Mona Lisa Gioconda. Zöllner who I asked preferred Lisa. I returned Kemp's book but think he said Lisa at least once. I really don't see a precedent for del Giocondo, sorry. -Susanlesch (talk) 09:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
You've thought about this a lot, and I've just jumped in from outside with no special background in the subject. I need to think about this some more, and I'm in a real-life situation that's going to make it hard for me to carry on anything like a real-time conversation here for the next few days. My Internet connection will be intermittent. The Italians seem to prefer La Gioconda. The New York Times, following its own style guide, calls her "Mrs. Giocondo" here, which makes me laugh. You might convince me that "Lisa" is best, but I'm not yet convinced. Finetooth (talk) 14:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
At last, I'm back to a stable Internet connection. I've had time to think about the name some more, and I've come around to thinking your interpretation of the MOS naming conventions is fine. Lisa it is. I will confess to being pushed in this direction not only by your reasoning but by the gold FA star that appeared in my absence. In fact, the article is truly well-done, and I enjoyed reading it. When I appeared on the scene, I intended to do the requested LoCE copyedit but got stuck on the name. In reading through the article again, I see very little I would change. I think the imperial-metric order should be reversed in a couple of places, and a nit-picker would add no-break codes to a couple of things, and I might add or subtract a comma or two. If you want me to do these things and sign off on the LoCE form, I'd be happy to. On the other hand, you might prefer to withdraw the copyediting request. Just let me know. Congratulations on the FA. Finetooth (talk) 22:53, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Great news about Lisa! If you have time to do a LoCE review it would be an honor. Thanks so much for thinking about her name. Mrs. G is so funny. I missed that one. You make life good. -Susanlesch (talk) 00:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pallanti book

Mona Lisa Revealed' by Giuseppe Pallanti has been added as a source. A correction. I heard about it in the popular press and mis-characterized it as "amateur" (and as a result spent my small budget for this article elsewhere). Rather, it is a beautiful book whose author has both credentials as a historian and as a person who has lived in Florence. Clearly and as soon as possible, more parts of Lisa's life can be described here. -Susanlesch (talk) 01:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Ludovica

Upon entrusting her care to their daughter Ludovica .... Earlier in the article it lists their five children, and Ludovica is not mentioned. This is a discrepancy. 91.105.2.153 (talk) 01:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I am adding the Pallanti book mentioned above as fast as I can, and hope other editors will help too. The old accounts don't match his work. I for one imagine that discrepancies will be common for a few more years until new works by the experts incorporate Pallanti (only my guess as a non-expert). I'll try to fix this one today, thanks. -Susanlesch (talk) 03:12, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Marietta took the name Suor Ludovica when she became a nun. That explains that. Thanks again for your note. -Susanlesch (talk) 03:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Agostino Vespucci's marginal note

I read in "The Life Behind The Mona Lisa" by Lord Byron that there were rumors of her being lesbian the latter part of her life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ivantrollet (talk • contribs) 04:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no such Byron piece under that title. More interesting: the marginal note made by Agostino Vespucci in a 1477 printing of Cicero's letters that he was neatly correcting in the margins as he read through it, dated "8bre 1503" comparing Leonardo to Apelles and mentioning the portrait of Lisa del Giocondo he was at work on, confirms what Vasari said, and confirms Vasari's date too. You'd hardly know it from reading the article. Did you'all get the drift? I did. I haven't looked into Mona Lisa to see how it's mentioned there. Seems like the big story was rather passed over. --Wetman (talk) 05:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Hello, Wetman. Yes, this article is about Lisa. Now that you have seen the Mona Lisa article, where the margin note is reproduced courtesy Uni Heidelberg, do you think more belongs here? -Susanlesch (talk) 05:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Someone added the image here too. It looks nice. -Susanlesch (talk) 06:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Why is the subject of this article referred to by her first name throughout - surely her surname should be used, in line with the MOS? 92.40.8.97 (talk) 12:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

"Del Giocondo" denotes where she is from. Likewise, Leonardo da Vinci is known as "Leonardo" throughout. Alientraveller (talk) 12:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, thanks - that makes sense! 217.171.129.75 (talk) 13:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Icon?

Shouldn't the Icon be Secular icon? I've changed it on the article page, but I'd need an admin to change it on the featured article page on the front page. 76.116.109.221 (talk) 14:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, fixed also in a photo caption. Thank you. -Susanlesch (talk) 20:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] del Gioconda?

Is the form "Lisa del Gioconda", mentioned in the lead, really commonly found? I know that the painting is often called "La Gioconda", but the form "del Gioconda" seems to be un-Italian. Lesgles (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, agreed and fixed in the lead. Enough names already. -Susanlesch (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The featured article has different info from the doc.

The Wiki main page states that she was a mother five children yet when you go to the document it tells she was a mother of six children. Please revise... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.172 (talk) 23:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Lisa also raised Bartolomeo, her husband's son. I don't think there is any way for non-admins to revise the main page. This TFA is no longer there as of a few minutes ago anyway. -Susanlesch (talk) 00:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] other sources

The article in it.wiki appears to have a number of Italian-language sources that may be useful for building this article. Mangostar (talk) 16:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Please do add them if you have them. Pallanti in English was released in 2006 and from your note, in 2004 in Italian. -Susanlesch (talk) 06:04, 15 April 2008 (UTC)