Talk:Linear B

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[edit] i want to add a important link, but

i had tried to add a new link, that is considerable important for this article and the Mycanaean greek article, but, a stupid bot, deleted it several times. i give you the link for your consideration, that i think, and many of us i suppost, is extremely relevant:

Glossary of Linear B —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hans soplopuco (talk • contribs) 19:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is Linear B like Chinese or Japanese?

I would admit that I don't know Linear B. But if it is as described as "poor compliance with the phonemic principle" and is partly syllabic, with additional logographic signs that are "determinative", or "designational" (yielding "classes", and "types"), it is more like Chinese than Japanese.

The Japanese kana is pure syllabic and forms complete words while kanji (literally, Chinese word) is imported complete word. The interleaving of kana and kanji serves as word delimiter since Japanese does not have "space" as modern European languages.

A significant numbers of Chinese words are phonemic with determinative, though most of them are poorly compliant with phonemic principle.

To claim that Linear B is like Japanese is to say that Linear B consists of phonemic symbols interleaving with foreign words such as Egyptian hieroglyphs.

I can't read any of the signs on this page. I think we'd need images for all the signs, since most people viewing this page will not have the appropriate fonts installed. Pfalstad 05:44, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I know. Unicode Linear B is hardly supported by any system. If you can find a copyright-free image, or create one yourself, it would be most welcome dab (ᛏ) 09:33, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The conclusion drawn by User:Spryom, "that all early civilizations in the eastern mediterannean areas (mainland Greece, Aegean, Cyprus, Crete and Ionian coast) were actually Greek.", is unwarranted. I adjusted accordingly. Mycenaean-age settlements that show material culture of Mycenaeans suggest Greek-speaking cultures in specific Aegean sites, but I thought that was getting offtopic. --Wetman 16:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I think that my phrase was quite bad and I certainly won't insist on it, but your wording greatly weakens the archaeological significance of the deciphering and doesn't show a united Greek world of the Mycenean times. My view is that more than "that a Greek-speaking Minoan-Mycenaean culture existed on Crete", the deciphering of Linear B showed a united (at least culturally) Greek world in the area. Evans thought that the Cretans and Myceneans were enemies of different cultures. Linear B showed that they were the same tribe. This also unites them under a common civilization, with the Cypriots and the Ionian coast, where we also know that Linear B and A was used. It appears you're a native english speaker, would you consider another go? --Spryom 09:51, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of work - it should address both issues just raised - and include the link above.

And foremost, it should give dates for Linear B - not just "Late Bronze age" in the date space in the right column. I know I've seen citations several times regarding these dates.

I personally think Linear B conforms to the statistical requirements of a phonetic alphabet, and I'm certainly not alone in that idea. LK (UTC)

[edit] Cypriot Syllabary

The important role of the Cypriot syllabary in the decoding should be described. (See Chadwick, John (1958). The Decipherment of Linear B).

see Template:sofixit :o) dab (ᛏ) 13:55, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of Archeology, Crete, Linear B

I started to try to clean up this section, but then I wondered if it should be included at all, as it appears there may be some original research here with verifiability problems:

The major cities, and "palaces" of Crete, kept annual, yearly, or other{ ? ) records, for disbursements of goods. Wool, sheep, and grain were some common items, often given to groups of religious people, and also groups of "men watching the coastline". It is known that the tablets were kept in groups, and in baskets on shelves, because some of the palaces burned, see Knossos, and/or earthquake and volcanic events, also precipitated largescale fires. The fires, from catastrophes, made "fired-clay tablets", of a percentage of the tablets found. Impressions of the basket weaving, have been left in the clay.
One of the interesting categories of tablets, or records(the Logogram for "Chariot Wheel"), concerns wheels for chariots. I am pretty sure that the chariot was like a "backpack". The wheels were recorded as "pairs", and their quality recorded, as their usage caused lifetime wear. I presume that administratively,..a trip out to outlying areas used up supplies on the outward trip, and returned with other supplies, on the return trip. In other words, the unfortified palaces of Crete had this administrative system, that lasted for many generations, on an island that was nearing the end of the Minoan period. (Possibly the volcanic eruption of island Santorini, just centrally north of Crete, (and subsequent multi-year earthquake events?) brought the end to this era.)

First of all, the syntax needs to be cleaned up, as I can't possibly believe that all of those commas are grammatically correct. Secondly, the second paragraph uses the word "I", which both violates our encyclopedic style and makes me wonder if someone has added their own personal theories here. Any thoughts, because this isn't anywhere near my area of expertise. Func( t, c, @, ) 00:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Apparently this is User:Mmcannis's reading of material in the Chadwick title that he added to the References, is it not? Re-editing might be done with an eye to the source (Chadwick) that is being reported in this text. --Wetman 02:07, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
I totally agrre that this is probably irrelevant material and non-encyclopedical - at least to the eye of the reader. I think it should be left out completely too. A simple link to Minoan culture would be fine by it's self.

Regarding the opening, which states that Linear B was derived from Linear A, this is not the consensus currently, rather that they developed simultaneously or at least on similar time scales. For example, some of the signs in Linear B are more primative than their counterparts in linear A. (unsigned comment by User:Dr_Eng1ish 2006-02-19 20:25:22)

[edit] Bennett left out

Emmett L. Bennett, Jr., had a lot to do with the grid which led to Ventris's solutions. In the books about the decipherment, in the index Bennett is mentioned more times than Kober. I'm not a scholar, so cannot provide an article. I do have a personal bias here, as Emmett is my oldest brother. But I think the bias is worth paying attention to.

Myron Bennett--72.49.92.221 20:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I assume you mean Chadwick The Decipherment of Linear B (CUP), in which Bennett is mentioned 12 times, Kober 7. I'll look into it, as I have a copy to hand - and thanks for mentioning your personal bias.--Nema Fakei 21:37, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, he's in for the beginning. I think Blegen deserves a mention too, and I'll look at both their subsequent contributions during the decipherment process. Thanks for pointing this out!--Nema Fakei 21:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, thanks Myron. I learned recently that Bennett was still alive and I was totally astounded, as he knew everyone worth knowing who is deceased now. Bennett was a leading figure when I was just learning some Greek. If this were Japan he would be declared a national asset. These Wikipedia articles grow by successive revision. I have seen articles so stupid I just threw up my hands in despair but sooner or later something appeared there that could be worked with. Vandalism was a terrible problem for a long time but they seem to have it more under control now. What I am saying is, eventually Bennett should show in just about every Linear B article.Dave (talk) 01:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What does the Q stand for

and the "q" series is used for indo-eurpoean /kʷ/, /gʷ/, /kʷʰ/ and /gʷʰ/: Isn't the above sentence inaccurate? Also is /Tegway/ correct? Should it be Tēgwai?

I don't see what's inaccurate about the first statement, apart from a small typo. I'm not sure in what tablets Thebes is actually mentioned, but if it is, it should either be recorded as te-qa-a (-ai can never be directly attested: a2 is only found word-initially), or a proper phonological reconstruction /tʰēgʷai/ --Nema Fakei 10:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  1. Thanks, I just didn't like the "y" at the end and also the missing superscripts. Also is the final "iota" for the dual or for the plural? Can you please put back the corrected version or should I do it?
  2. What is the reasonging for including Thebes pronounciation in that section? Why not all the cities?
  3. Also in the sentence about labio-velar Indo-European consonants /kʷʰ/ should not be included or ot should be something like "/kʷ/, /gʷ/ and /gʷʰ/, the last one being devoiced in Greek to /kʷʰ/". Unfortunately in Greek alphabet we only have qoppa to represent all of them. There should be a goppa and a qhoppa :) --Kupirijo 15:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
(1&2) I don't know why someone's addes Thebes in and none of the others. I would therefore say it would be better to leave the Myc version out of it entirely. The final 'i' is for the plural - the dual would be /-ā/.
(3) Ah, I'm being a dunce. We can't reconstruct voiceless aspirates for IE, so it's just /kʷ/, /gʷ/ and /gʷʰ/. Thanks. --Nema Fakei 16:32, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I think you corrected it the other way out. I am going to correct it OK? --Kupirijo 16:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Ignore some of my previous comments about place names. --Nema Fakei 13:01, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy ignored?

The article fails to reflect that Ventris's alleged decipherment was controversial and is considered by some experts to be incomplete. --Nate Levin

Saying it here does not make it so. We can read Linear B. Ventris deciphered it. It is no longer controversial. There are some characters we don't yet know. -- Evertype·✆ 00:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
"The use of the word tends itself to create controversy where none may have authentically existed, acting as a self-fulfilling prophecy.'- Wikipedia, "Controversy". --Wetman 01:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technical assistance?

This isn't really about the article as such--it's about how to read the article. I can't see the Linear B glyphs, possibly because I don't have the right font. I get a weird symbol, the same one for all the glyphs. So I'm curious which font I should obtain. I also notice that the glyphs aren't templated, and it seems like there ought to be a template similar to {{polytonic}} or {{Script/Cuneiform}} for Linear B script. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC) Hm, I'm actually seeing two glyphs--one which looks like an ax, and another one that looks like a tripod. All the syllabic signs look like an ax, and the ideograms alternate between tripods and axes. Weird. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

To answer my own question, the font Code2001 ([1]) has Linear B characters, and works on Windows and OS X. Additional fonts can be found here. That page is specific to Windows, but the same site has pages on fonts for OS X and Linux/Unix. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I get the usual beautiful array of square boxes. Can somebody upload some images, please? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I tried installing the necessary font files, but in IE it still shows up as square boxes. In Firefox, however, I see all the cool symbols. I have IE set to Unicode encoding but still no go. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-06-22 12:44Z

Same problem here, I have downloaded and installed these fonts, but still what I see is just boxes... Kapnisma ? 18:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

O damn, I use Firefox and after installing the font I don't see the usual question marks (the Firefox equivalent for square boxes) but instead I get a lot of identical sort-of-hooks. Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 19:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I see exactly the same problem: on Safari 2.0.4 (pretty current) none of the glyphs render. Somebody's going to have to redo the tables as images, I think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.233.233 (talk) 08:38, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm using Firefox and Safari 3.0.2, and I see the proper glyphs on both. (This is on OS X 10.4.10.) --Akhilleus (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] missing

where is a reference to Cyrus Gordon's work showing that Linear B is Semitic? - 4.249.198.63

There isn't one, presumably because Ventris' decipherment has rendered it obsolete. You're welcome to include the book's details in the bibliography, and include a note in the appropriate section that Gordon tried to prove it was Semitic. Are you sure it was Linear B he claimed was semitic, not Linear A? --Nema Fakei 09:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
It was in fact Linear A, as I happen to have his main books on the subject. His approach is totally etymological; he picks out a small repertory of place names he believes were linked to Semitic equivalents. The possibility is not dead yet. In any case, not relevant here.Dave (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Todo

  • Finish updating the logograms/ideograms to include the 3/4 letter transcription approved by CIPEM.
  • Do the weights and measures
  • Either complete the logograms/ideograms or note that it is not complete
  • Sort out the reference to AGS
i.e. Aravantinos, V. L., 2001, Godart, L., Sacconi, A., Thèbes, Fouilles de la Cadmée I. Les tablettes en linéaire B de la Odos Pelopidou. Edition et Commentaire, I, Pisa & Rome
  • Add to transcribed additional syllabic signs their LB graphemes

Updated: Nema Fakei (talk) 11:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logograms

Ah, forgot about JAC and HAS being two different things. The latter is Unicode D8, 𐃘. Thanks for picking that up. On *233=PUG, the minutes and resolutions of CIPEM in (I think) 1972, which I was working from, it being the last full signary published, has *233=PUG, 234 (the single bladed version) unnamed - do you know when it was changed?

As to the ideogram going at the end of the line, I am afraid I can't think of a single example off the top of my head of an ideogram that does not precede a numeral, with the exception of tablet breaks, so I don't follow your edit to that sentence at all. --Nema Fakei (talk) 00:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. I changed it. If you can think of a better way just change it. I know a British pound sign follows and the dollar sign precedes so I thought that part was unclear. The intro is pretty well written; in fact, the whole thing isn't bad at all. I'm just giving an edit therefore, except for the expansion. The reader ought to know what, when, where and why. I jump around a lot so I won't be here too much longer, maybe too long already. I won't get all the work done. By the way I'm not getting any symbols on my reader, just little lines and boxes. Is that just me? The Deutsch Wikipedia has a template, LinearB, for putting in symbols and it seems to work. I won't be doing that this session.Dave (talk) 11:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
PS No, I don't know the answer to your question. I must say also I am not working from the latest; all I have are Ventris and Chadwick, Bennett about the time of Wingspread, Ruijgh, decipherment and a few other things on the Knossos tablets. So, I lack a lot of the 3-4 letter abbreviations even though in most cases I can get the Latin name from Ruijgh. Ventris does not like Latin names and Ruijgh does not like abbreviations. If you know what they are, put them in there will, you? But don't guess, of course. ThanksDave (talk) 12:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
PPS Well I've been probing around and the first thing I notice is the CIPEM site, which I had hoped would lead into some modern charts of what CIPEM has been doing. Well I don't know very much more than when I started except possibly Palaima is interested in Dylan and Willie Nelson; in fact, for a moment there I thought I was on a folk-music site, although what relevance Bob and Willie now have to anything whatsoever much less Linear B I do not see at all. Moreover Palaima seems to be using the site to sell his anti-war ideas. It seems as though something is still wrong in Texas. If you follow down the CIPEM links they are almost all dead and the rest of them lead nowhere. Just what the h. is Palaima doing over there and why is HE in charge of the site? Then I read that Cynthia wants to know where we go from here. Where does she want to go from here? I'm sure there are lots of places to go if anyone might be interested in going there. I always knew classics could be dull. For myself I would like to see Linear A finished up but apparently we can't do that without a new set of fundamental assumptions as the old ones are pretty old now and have had no result. The CIPEM site leads ultimately to a great bibiography but it has one drawback. None of it is accessible and none of it is for free. Apparently CIPEM never heard of Google Books and reviewability. Someone wants to make sure only the rich or a hereditary caste of classicists can read their stuff. The social net designed to keep the wrong persons out wraps around them like a fishnet and keeps them all in or wrapped up or whatever. That being so I am afraid I cannot check us against the very latest. Somewhere in the stuff I have read Ventris complains that the sword is more of a dagger. That is as far as I can go. Nothing that might enlighten me can be reviewed on Google or costs less than $250. Why, when the Decipherment came out, it was a paperback I think you could get for a quarter! There are a couple of libraries I can visit if I can find a place to park but that will have to wait. So, it is up to you! I can only help out with some of the work but you will have to edit at least for now. What I would like to see is a chart that tells you everything you would otherwise have to take a $3000 classics course to learn or buy a few thousand worth of books to find out. So, for now I am going as far as my notes carry me and then you or the next person will have to take up the story while toasting marshmellows by the fire.Dave (talk) 00:55, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A very minor point

The last sentence in the paragraph headed "Decipherment" doesn't quite make sense:-

"...and presented Greek in writing some 600 years earlier than what was thought at the time."

I don't really know what the writer means, or I would amend the ending myself... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.14.66.122 (talk) 13:03, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Obection

The tablets are not enciphered. Translating them should be called translation, not decipherment.A.times.B,equals (talk) 01:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

In real life, the word decipherment has the meaning, among others, "2. To find out, so as to be able to make known the meaning of; to make out or read, as words badly written or partly obliterated; to detect; to reveal; to unfold." [1913 Webster] Whatever it should mean, it is being used with a standard English meaning when we speak of deciphering the tablets, and Google Books has many examples of it being used in exactly this context.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)