Talk:Lin Biao

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[edit] Too many mistakes & too much false information

[edit] You can't trust Chang & Halliday

They simply ignore evidence that does not fit their prejudices. I've detailed some of it elsewhere. (Wikipedia is acting up so I can't give the exact link. But see Luding Bridge for detailed evidence against one of her widely-reported claims.

Everyone except Chang & Halliday regards Edgar Snow as reliable. Read his later books, which show a critical judgements.

I'm happy that extra sources have been added, and Mao's doctor is a reputable source.

--GwydionM 18:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Check [1] here for a critical survey of Chang & Halliday by someone who's just as much hostile to Mao, but more concerned with facts and proof. --GwydionM 17:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I've made some changes

I've added some material from Edgar Snow's works, making it clear that Lin was a gifted military leader. Included his replacement of Peng as Defence Minister, and that issues of military professionalism were important.

It's incorrect that "Peng replaced Lin in Korean War". Lin has never involved in the Korean War. Mao originally asked Lin to command the Chinese Army in Korea, but Lin refused with the health problems as the execuse. He then went to Moscow for treatment.68.68.104.203 03:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I've also corrected the assignment of a 1937 battle to World War Two. Removed an unsourced claim that Lin Biao opposed the Korean war. Split the article into sections, making it easier for more details to be added.

I've left alone the story about a planned coup or assassination, though frankly I don't believe it. Assassination has never been part of Chinese Commuist politics. But Lin would have had no hope of staging a coup if Mao opposed it What I think happened is that he knew he was due to be replaced, lose his position and be subject to imprisonment or 're-education'. So he decided to flee to the USSR as a refuge until Mao died. Had this succeeded, he would have been a formidable rallying-point for old-style Maoists in the years after Mao's death.

If you read more Chinese history, you won't think so. If he successfully went to USSR, his political life in China would be dead. Coming back after fleeing to a foreign country like that is simply not possible in Chinese political culture.

The crash itself seems very suspicious - why did a brilliant general not notice his aircraft was short of fuel? Why didn't the pilot seek some other airport when the fuel showed low? There may have been some sort of subtle sabotage.

I have added the widespread view that Lin opposed the raprochement with the USA.

--GwydionM 16:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

To me, this view is very doubtful. Lin is actually not a left-wing extremist imagined by some western people, most of whom only know his public image in the cultural revolution. Lin's political agenda is actually very close to Zhou's. One of the reasons that Mao was no longer trusting Lin in 1970, is because their political difference. A well-documented story (I could hardly find English reference to this, but it is somehow well know in the Chinese world) said that around 1970 Mao asked Lin to draft the keynote speech for CCP's national congress (which will usually be the "highest" policies for the following years). Mao used this as a test for Lin, to see if he is truly following him or not. If yes, Mao will consider to end the cultural revolution. Lin got excited and used several months to write the draft. He talked with Zhou Enlai and believed the focus should be economic development. Zhou proof-read the draft for him and highly praised the draft. However, Mao was extremely angry because he thought Lin's draft had no difference with the political ideas of Liu Shaoqi. He disproved the draft and asked Zhang Chunqiao (Member of the later "Gang of Four") to re-write the draft to stress on "class struggle". From then on, Mao began to suspected that Lin was actually against him politically. He became more relying on his own wife, and refused to end cultural revolution, as CR is Mao's ultimate weapon in party struggles.

Actually, I find the repeated mention of Snow's book rather distracting -- at times the article reads more like a criticism of Snow's coverage of Lin's career than about Lin's career. I don't think the information is inappropriate, but it might be organized better. --Saforrest 13:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Snow's views about Lin are full of mistakes and some of them even lack common knowledge. Examples: 1. Lin led Chinese Army in Korea -- anybody with some relevant knowledge would know how ridiculous this is. 2. The reason Mao established Lin -- the true reason is Mao wanted to purge Peng, and Peng was the No.1 military leader in China at the time, so Mao need a giant from the army to support him. It absolutely has NOTHING to do with the relations with USSR.

Many authors mention Peng's Soviet links as a cause of his fall. Chinese Communist secrecy remains highly effective, so many other things remain uncertain. It is possible that he commanded Chinese forces in the Sino-Indian war, but I only found one source saying that. --GwydionM 18:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military histories are lacking

There seems to be nothing in English that gives details of the military career of Lin Biao or the other Chinese Communist generals. The best I've seen are a couple of books about the Long March, which give broad outlines in a couple of paragraphs. It's an odd gap in Anglo knowledge.

--GwydionM 20:05, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

One mistake. It was Yen Hsi-shan's troop that shot Lin after the ambush at Pingxingguan. I know some about Lin and other Chinese generals. However, my English is poor ...

--zhxb515 18:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] subjectivity of the article

i think there is no place in an encyclopedia to give the opinions of writers. there is too much inpropriate details about Lin's life and thoughts. why not noly concentrate on facts ?? (what's more' all the writers are American I believe). I propose that some quotations should be erased from this article. (sorry for my English'

Hi. I'm not English-speaking neither, but I feel it's odd to write an article with so many quotations. Doesn't seem like an Encyclopedia article, but pieces of novels (for instance, who cares that Lin was awesome ?)

83.204.72.149 17:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MilHist Assessment

This article needs some serious clean-up. It's a good start, and I like that there's a picture, and some good section divisions. But there are way too many quotes and not nearly enough regular prose text. The sections on the Sino-Japanese War and Chinese Civil War could presumably be expanded, and the intro definitely needs some work. If this was in fact one of the most famous and important people in Communist Chinese history, I don't get that impression from the introduction, nor do I know why he would be considered important. An introduction paragraph should give a summary or overview of everything the casual reader needs to know about the subject. LordAmeth 17:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Life

Are any details known about Biao's personal life? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.64.99.48 (talk) 23:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Flight and death

Does anyone think Lin didn't die in 1971? If so, who? Cite them.

While the cause of the falling out and the plane crash remain speculative, the fact that they happened seems unquestionable. Presumably the USSR confirmed Lin's death after examining the wreckage.

Dubious historical analysis about what it was 'likely' was going on should be left out of the article, unless an authority can be cited.--Jack Upland 19:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

The article says that no planes entered Mongolian airspace because of the high cost of fuel at the time. This may well be the case, but it sounds very odd on two counts:

One would assume that Lin may have been worth more then some tonnes of fuel for the Chinese government at the time
Other reasons for not entering Mongolian airspace seem far more obvious. Relations with the Soviet Bloc were tense, and the Soviets had deployed some divisions in Mongolia (on Mongolian request) since (I think) 1965. In such a situation, a large-scale violation of Mongolian airspace might have caused a mayor international incident. A potential loss of Chinese combat aircraft over mongolian soil might at least have made China lose face big time. Yaan (talk) 12:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree, Yaan. This is complete nonsense, without any basis in fact. I'll go ahead and remove it, unless someone puts it back. Radchenk (talk) 20:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mongolian intelligence report

I thought I would add this interesting piece of evidence, which I obtained at one stage from a Mongolian source. This is a report prepared by the Mongolian investigators at the scene of the crash. It is actually quite lengthy, and as far as I am aware, is not yet widely available, or cited in any literature, with a possible exception of a recent Chinese book on Lin Biao. The report claims that the plane had plenty of fuel on board at the time of the crash, and suggests pilot error as the reason. It also provides a list of fatalities with detailed descriptions. Radchenk (talk) 12:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

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