Talk:Limpieza de sangre

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I am surprised to read that you relate "limpieza de sangre" to the Basque issue and nationalism. The concept of "limpieza de sangre" is basically and historically related to the Conversos or Cristianos Nuevos who converted from Judaism in Spain. The degree of integration into Christian society depended also on the number of generations that could be counted since the original conversion.

"Ethnic Christian"--what a concept! Sweetfreek 02:19, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's indeed quite imbecile to conect ethnicity to religion. But what did the Nazis did? And still today the concept of anti-semetism/anti-judaism "works"!

Contents

[edit] The Moors Were Not "Arabs"

The ancient Moors are not to be confused with Arabs. Arabs are native to the Arabian Peninsula not North West Africa. Yes, the Moors were Muslims and spoke Arabic, but the religion of Islam and aspects of its culture can be accepted by every race and nationality. The ancient Moors were North African Berbers and what anthropologists classify to have been of the "Caucasoid" persuasion. Similar to ancient Egyptians, Carthaginians and so on.

Yes, they did have an Arab common class (which represented a very small minority of the demographic) and Subsaharan slaves (which again made up an insignificant part of the over all Moor demographic) that they indeed had brought to the Iberian peninsula and yes, they did introduce the majority of the Jewish population to Iberia.

Where did you get the idea that so-called "sub-Saharan" Africans were slaves? Are you alos trying to imply that "sub-Saharan" means black and that is the only place where the black man in Africa is? The pictures I have seen of the jet-black Moors clearly don't show them as slaves, but as masters. This revisionist history is the latest move by those with black blood in them to try and write the blackness out of their bloodline. You cannot because it is already there.

Also, Bebers were NOT white, the white ones are a results of European invaders, many who mixed with Berbers. Berbers are black and many can best be described as people who look like Nelson Mandela's people.--71.235.81.39 16:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


Based on these facts, I call for an editing on that particular part of this article. In my opinion "Arab" should be simply changed to Moor or Muslim.

We are not concerned with realityn here, but what Modern Spaniards thought. They considered the descendants of Muslims and Jews as foreigners, even if they were actually Muladis.
--Error 20:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Further, I am not entirely (although somewhat) acquainted with the work of Sabino Arrana and the Basque Nationalist movement. However, I doubt very highly that "racial impurity" (in a non-European sense) was/is a common theme. The Basques view themselves as being unique to that of all of Europe. Highlighting their own ethnic/culture uniqueness and "purity" rather than really spewing rhetoric of the possibility of "mixed lineages" of the rest of Iberians and the French. They tend to focus on the impacts the Celts, Romans, Visigoths, etc. had on the ethnic construct of Iberia and France. For example, Arrana commonly referred to Spaniards as the "Sons Of Romans" not the Moors. To make a long story short, the case they make more so is that the Basques, unlike the vast majority of Europeans, are (in their opinion) only Basque; Not a variety of different European Nationalities.

I found a quote by Arana that I have not incorporated into the article because it is in a very non-neutral page and I have no means to check it against the original source:
“La pureza de la raza, más comúnmente conocida con el nombre de «limpieza de sangre» (...) es uno de nuestros fundamentos políticos”
Sabino Arana. (Bizkaitarra. 3 de Marzo de 1895)
--Error 20:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, The Moors, militarily, did reach various areas of what are considered to be areas of Basque territory (although not successfully occupying these areas). So, there is an argument that can be made that there are areas of Spain that were even further secluded from the Moors more so than the Basque country. The regions of Galicia/Asturias (Asturies), for example, can be argued to have had less Moorish presence as compared to particular areas the Basque territory. Thus, this poorly articulated argument and unproven theory that all Iberians other than the Basques are "mixed" with the ancient Moors is rather flawed and I think unnecessary in an article that is supposed to be focused on a totally different historic issue.

No matter the flaws, there were people like Larramendi who believed in it. --Error 20:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-modern Catholic Racial Views

Origen (circa 185-c. 254): “For the Egyptians are prone to a degenerate life and quickly sink to every slavery of the vices. Look at the origin of the race and you will discover that their father Cham, who had laughed at his father’s nakedness, deserved a judgment of this kind, that his son Chanaan should be a servant to his brothers, in which case the condition of bondage would prove the wickedness of his conduct. Not without merit, therefore, does the discolored posterity imitate the ignobility of the race [Non ergo immerito ignobilitatem decolor posteritas imitatur].” Homilies on Genesis 16.1

“Mar Ephrem the Syrian said: When Noah awoke and was told what Canaan did. . .Noah said, ‘Cursed be Canaan and may God make his face black,’ and immediately the face of Canaan changed; so did of his father Ham, and their white faces became black and dark and their color changed.” Paul de Lagarde, Materialien zur Kritik und Geschichte des Pentateuchs (Leipzig, 1867), part II

St. Jerome: “Chus in Hebrew means Ethiopian, that is, black and dark, one who has a soul as black as his body.” (The Homilies of Saint Jerome, vol. 1, trans. Marie Liguori Ewald, Homily 3, 28).

St. Ennodius (474-521): “Keep your chastity constant. Don’t let the body of a black girl soil yours, nor lie with her for her Hell-black face.” Epistulae 7.21

John Philoponus, Greek Christian philosopher (6th century): “The Scythians and Ethiopians are distinguished from each other by black and white color, or by long and snubbed nose, or by slave and master, by ruler and ruled,” and again, “The Ethiopian and Scythian. . .one is black, the other white; similarly slave and master.” A. Sanda, Oposcula Monophysitica Johannes Philoponi (Beirut, 1930), pp. 66,96 (Sanda’s Latin translation).

Ishodad of Merv (Syrian Christian bishop of Hedhatha, 9th century): When Noah cursed Canaan, “instantly, by the force of the curse. . .his face and entire body became black [ukmotha]. This is the black color which has persisted in his descendents.” C. Van Den Eynde, Corpus scriptorium Christianorum orientalium 156, Scriptores Syri 75 (Louvain, 1955), p. 139.

Eutychius, Alexandrian Melkite patriarch (d. 940): “Cursed be Ham and may he be a servant to his brothers… He himself and his descendants, who are the Egyptians, the Negroes, the Ethiopians and (it is said) the Barbari.” Patrologiae cursus completes…series Graeca, ed. J.P. Migne (Paris, 1857-66), Pococke’s (1658-59) translation of the Annales, 111.917B (sec. 41-43)

Bar Hebraeus (Syrian Christian scholar, 1226-86): “‘And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and showed [it] to his two brothers.’ That is…that Canaan was cursed and not Ham, and with the very curse he became black and the blackness was transmitted to his descendents…. And he said, ‘Cursed be Canaan! A servant of servants shall he be to his brothers.’” Sprengling and Graham, Barhebraeus’ Scholia on the Old Testament, pp. 40-41, to Gen 9:22.

Gomes Eannes de Zurara (official royal chronicler of Portugal, 1453): “These blacks were Moors like the others, though their slaves, in accordance with ancient custom, which I believe to have been because of the curse which, after the Deluge, Noah laid upon his son Cain [read: Cham], cursing him in this way: that his race should be subject to all the other races of the world.” C.R. Beazley and E. Prestage, The Chronicle of the Discovery and Conquest of Guinea in the Hakluyt 1st series, no. 95 (London, 1896), 1:54.

Francisco de la Cruz (Dominican, 1575): “The blacks are justly captives by just sentence of God for the sins of their fathers, and that in sign thereof God gave them that color.” Bartolomé de Las Casas in History (DeKalb, Ill., 1971), p. 417. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

This is going too far. Limpieza de sangre is used in English literature on the subject and I recognize it. I would not recognize cleanliness of blood without context. --JWB 01:54, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree, this should have been discussed here or more formally by WP:RM. WP:UE isn't a licence for Wikipedians to promote relatively uncommon translations of terms which are widely used in the English literature. GBooks search for "limpieza de sangre" (793 hits [1]), "cleanliness of blood" (33 hits [2]), "blood cleanliness" (21 hits [3]), "cleanliness of the blood" (15 hits [4]). "Purity of blood" and "clean blood" are also commonly used translations, but they're harder to search for as they're more ambiguous and used in contexts besides limpieza de sangre. cab 02:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Also agree. I came across this concept just a few days ago when translating Camilo Henríquez from Spanish, and the English-language reference I used, The Oxford Encyclopedia of Latinos and Latinas in the United States (the history section of the article), uses this term, not the English [5]. The English term is an imperfect translation of the words, not the name of the concept. Dmcdevit·t 08:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I've made a request at User_talk:Dark_Tea#Removing_foreign_words for the editor who made the change to discuss it. --JWB 19:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
I have never heard the term "limpieza de sangre" in an English-language conversation, but I have heard "racial purity" and "pure blood" before. WP:BETTER says to use the phrase common to English speakers.----DarkTea 08:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
This article isn't about "racial purity," it's about, well, limpieza de sangre, the concept of pure Iberian Christian blood common in the premodern era. This is the common term in English scholarship for that concept. Dmcdevit·t 08:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Would you change Apartheid to 'apartness' or some other English word? No, because the term refers to a racist ideology of a specific place and era, not racism in general. Limpieza de sangre is the technical term for a particular practice several centuries ago in Spain. Other technical terms from this era like converso and morisco are also used in their Spanish forms in English discussion, and would become too nonspecific if translated into English.
This is very similar to perestroika, which WP:BETTER#Use_other_languages_sparingly specifically cites as justified use. --JWB 16:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this issue of the title, it should be noted that Cleanliness of blood was also a concet and reality in Portugal - spelled Limpeza de Sangue - during the period of the Portuguese Inquisition. One had to prove one's cleanliness of blood in order to aply for public, military or church positions. Many were the Familiares do Santo Ofício, lay members of the Inquisition, that had to prove cleanliness of blood to the 5th generation. The Ogre 11:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

WP:NAMING says to use the English language version unless the foreign language version is better recognized by English speakers. I have never heard of "limpieza de sangre" in an English conversation but I have heard of "cleanliness of blood" in an English conversation. "Perestroika" and "aparthied" I have heard in English conversation, so they would be the exception to the rule.----DarkTea 20:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
It is the subject itself that is not as well known, not the term. If you read about the subject, you encounter the term. In fact I did a report in high school on limpieza de sangre, and following the literature, I used the term throughout the report.
I would be curious what "cleanliness of blood" referred to in English conversations you have heard. Did it specifically refer to the Spanish policy during the period referenced? And as cab Google tested above, the phrase is much less common. --JWB 22:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Is the problem simply that you are not familiar with the topic? Please provide sources of other English speakers using this term to refer to the specific Iberian concept discussed here? Dmcdevit·t 01:19, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Cleanliness of blood → Limpieza de sangre — Revert undiscussed move from Spanish term widely used in academic literature in English to an uncommon English translation. WP:UE should not have been applied here. Discussion above indicates a strong consensus for the move, I am looking to get wider community opinion here, so I've listed this on WP:RM. —cab 23:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see why this is necessary. The only one that contests the name limpieza de sangre is the same user that made the unilateral move. I think we should just revert it if no convincing reasoning is given for the move. Dmcdevit·t 01:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, since the move was a contested one, it was the user's responsibility to poll before doing it in the first place. --JWB 18:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the bold page move because it does not appear to enjoy much support. If Dark Tea or anyone else feels strongly about the English title, we can deal with a move request in the other direction. Dekimasuよ! 06:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blood percentages

It looks like there is a problem in the calculation of percentages given. If an Albino is 87.5% European/12.5% Africa, and a Torna atrás is the product of an Albino and a European, then the Torna atrás can't be less European (75%) and more African (25%) than his/her mother. This would affect the percentages in the rest of the table. 134.121.46.205 04:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)