Talk:Liminality

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[edit] Problems with this article

1. It seems to contain a examples not consistent with the only definition provided for liminality, particularly sections 4.2 to 4.5. These sections are littered with examples not even indirectly relevant to anthropology. Many examples do not make sense and may even be offensive. For example bisexuality as a liminal stage. Already being a bisexual is outside of even the most generous definition of a "ritual" and thus seems inconsistent with the article's definition of liminality. But moreover it trivializes bisexuality as an actual sexual orientation since implicit in any definition of liminality is that it is a transitional phase.

I think the talk about bisexuality may overreach a little bit, but you're probably reading too much into it and being sensitive when you interpret the article as calling it a "liminal stage". Not my words, not my thoughts, but liminality is characterized by indeterminacy, and when we're talking about cultural anthropology, it's important to be able to talk about value judgments that we may not agree with. (See: Ittoen: The Myths and Rituals of Liminality) --Dhimelright 00:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

To resolve this issue with bisexuality, perhaps emphasis could be placed on the permanently liminal stages. Limiting the definition of liminal to the ritual seems too confining. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.94.76 (talk) 01:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


2. Disturbingly low amount of sources. Only 4.6 and the definitions are sourced. Even more disturbing if one considers that most of section 4 reads like original research.

Suggestions: Gut everything past 4.1 and then expand 4.1 with more information relevant to liminality as a concept in anthropology. Unfortunately I am in no position to contribute anything to the article since I have only a cursory knowledge of the concept.

Sourcing is really bad, I tracked down a couple of the bib items and moved them to references. I have a pretty early web source for Turner's "Frame, Flow and Reflection" (http://www.ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/107.pdf) but I'm not up to doing the rewrite (that I agree is necessary) just yet. --Dhimelright 00:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

3. The author of this article is overextending the term liminality to cover territory defined by marginality, which is not necessarily transitional, and abjection, which is equivalent to outsiderhood. Turner's definition of liminality is explicit in that he states that it is not a 'state' but a process. The reaggregation of the liminar's identity into a new status or configuration of symbols at the other of end of a transformative rite of passage is a undeniably indispensible to the tripartite scheme that includes liminality. Ritual is temporal and episodic, while not all the examples in the article allow for this interpretation. The author also misses the importance of metaphorical structuring that characterizes rites of passage by analogy. An example is the dichotomy of life and death, which is often used to describe the movement through liminality that ritual passengers experience. Plus, the flip side of communitas is the extreme power held over the "neophytes" by the ritual "guides." I would work on the article itself, but I should be working on my thesis, which is about liminality a draft of which is due in two days. 134.10.123.68 (talk) 03:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing Word Choice/grammar

The section of this article titled "Liminality of Beings" is very confusing. It lists beings that are (apparently) examples of something, but it does not say what they are examples of or what they have to do with the section. Indeed, it does not say what the section is about and thus has no meaning and is completely irrelevent to the article. I can not edit myself because I lack the proper knowledge, and, now that I think about it, my writing can be rather confusing as well. Repku 22:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

At an interesting meeting this week April 2008(AusWeb80) and the speaker referred to those who work as information architects being in a liminal state. Not accurate but made the point very well.

[edit] The first job: a liminal process?

The article is quite thorough and tries to explain this difficult concept that is liminality. However, there is a kind of Liminal Space that isn't analysed here and that could be given some importance since most of us go through it. In deed, a recently graduated student that just started his first job is a perfect example for a liminal case.

The undergraduate, in his last year of studies at college benefits from a series of advantages. He is seen in the university as an element of prestige: placed in the top hierarchy, he is already considered as a result of achievement, given proofs, and success. Employees see in him an eventual future boss and try to treat him more or less as such, because they truly believe he deserves to be treated as such. All in all, he is at the peak of his student recognition level and importance in the organization he is in.

But then, after graduation, comes the first job, and with it a sky-dive fall over what seems to be an edge: the first job. When arriving at this new organization, the no-longer student is placed in an environment where he has yet a long way to overcome and proofs to give, and as so is not yet seen as a professional. Here is the liminality of the situation.

This liminal space where the graduate is no longer viewed with promising eyes and aim of trust and belief, situated at the top of his organization, but is rather seen with doubtful eyes, for how welcoming they may be, and is asked to prove everything that he says that he is worth, and that he had not to prove at college. In other words, he is no longer a final-year student, but neither is yet a professional recognized as such nor a full employee.

This liminal space in which he is placed for at least the first months in the new organization he is working for can be a quite hard social process to go through, and many factors during this time will influence the performance, motivation and satisfaction of this new employee. These factors are such as the relationship the managers and peers, but also the easiness of the socialization process, the level of challenge of the first task and many more.

The question remains to know for how long does this process endure and how can it be smoothen?

Dfvital 13:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The question for this is: is this discussion appropriate for this article? And the answer is, No. It is about jobs, not liminality, and furthermore is original research. Goldfritha 00:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

User: minetruly

I looked up this article after the author Chuck Palahniuk described "liminal" and "liminoid" in chapter 38 of his fictional book Rant. The information in this article and the book look extremely similar, to the point I suspect either someone wrote most of the article from Palahniuk's description, or Palahniuk did most of his research by reading this article.

Palahniuk, Chuck. Rant. Doubleday. 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.76.28.112 (talk) 18:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Liminal

Interestingly this word is from the english word limen, which means threshold. Limen was first used in 1884 in the journal 'Mind'. It pertains to psychology and was introduced from the German word schwelle by Herbart in "Psychology" in 1824. Limen means the limit below which a given stimulus ceases to be perceptible. We get the word subliminal from the same place, psychology. However, there is a latin word limen, which also means threshold in a non-psychological sense. Our word threshold derives from this around the turn of the tenth century, much earlier. I'm arguing that limen had already given us the word threshold without a pyschological meaning much earlier than limen. It is no coincidence that the german word schwelle from which we now derive limen is used to mean threshold in the everyday sense of 'the threshold of a house'. It was with a specific psychological intention that limen came into the english language in its figurative form from german, not the literal meaning. —Fred114 08:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing citations throughout

Problems defined in earlier editors' and users' comments above remain. The article still needs extensive revision and much more documentation of almost every part of it. Added templates. Removed section that clearly violates WP:NOR. Much of the rest of this article still does too. Leaving it to others to bring to Wikipedia quality standards (policies and guidelines.) --NYScholar (talk) 02:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)