Talk:Limbic system

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[edit] No subject

I'll be updating this page with some of the more recent developments (10/15 years worth) in this arena. Notably, this phrase needs to be placed within historical and descriptive contexts as, currently, it is arguable that no single limbic system exists per se. Still, is a suitable location to frame a discussion of the emotional structures and how they operate. PilotPrecise10:40, 9 March 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. Joseph LeDoux in his 10-year old book The Emotional Brain states, starting page 73: "Around mid-century it seemed that the prize was finally in hand when the limbic system theory of emotion was proposed...It would be hard to overestimate the impact of the limbic system concept. It had a tremendous influence not only on the way we think of emotional functions but also on the way we think of the structural organization of the brain. Each year, legions of neuroscience students are taught where the limbic system is and what it does. Unfortunately, though, there is a problem. The limbic system theory is wrong as an explanation of the emotional brain and some scientists even say that the limbic system does not exist." - Gyan

Agreed. This problem motivated my addition of the History section to this article. The limbic system is a fascinating and critical conceptual idea in the historical development of affective neuroscience, but we will get no where fast if we debate what is or is not part of the limbic system, as the field has moved beyond this limited construction. I would propose that we either devote a section of this article or create a new article in which we document the brain areas currently thought to be both centrally and peripherally related to emotion and their putative roles. sallison 19:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The inclusion of the cingulate and fornicate gyri is inaccurate: The cingulate gyrus makes up part of the fornicate gyrus along with the parahippocampal gyrus The fornicate gyrus is so-named because the two components together make a horshoe-shape in the medial aspect of the cerebral hemisphere. From Latin: fornicatus (meaning 'arch'-infinitive) and fornix (meaning 'vault' or 'arch'). The fornicate gyrus is also called the "Limibic Lobe" (L. Limbus - 'border') as it forms the margin about the diencephalon.--Henry Hadlow 15:13, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to edit inaccurate information. I'm trying to figure out a structure and organization method that will lead this article to featured status. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 06:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we settle for organizing the article in such a way that it adequately offers readers an overview of current science? Is reader service the goal, or is the goal prestige of acheiving featured status? CheckFacter 18:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Septum" revert

The phrase "the pleasure center, known simply as the septum, is located in the limbic system" was removed due to an inaccuracy. The article isn't as full as it could be, but this is simply wrong, or confused. The "septum" is generally the name given to the Septum pellucidum, which is simply a glial membrane seperating the two lateral ventricles and has nothing to do with the limbic system or dopamine. The Septal nuclei are indeed connected to the limbic system, but they provide cholinergic input to the hippocampus. Semiconscious (talk · home) 00:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Hey Semiconscious, I checked out your userpage to see if you started work on Basal Ganglia and noticed you made this edit. Actually, I think they mean the nucleus accumbens, which is not part of the limbic sytem but is closely linked to it. I made changes that reflect this. Maybe this should go in the NA article, rather than here, but I left it for now. Nrets 14:31, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Emotional structures

As a follow up to my comment above, I think it would be useful to directly contrast the list of limbic system structures presented on this page with a new section that discusses structures that are currently thought to be most important for emotional processing:

Amygdala
Prefrontal Cortex
Anterior Cingulate
Ventral Striatum
Insula

Is there any opposition to this sort of approach to the problem proposed by PilotPrecise above? sallison 22:50, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

A good way to do this is to divide the article into 1) strict anatomical description of limbic structures, 2) functional description (ie. basis for emotion, memory, affective disorders), 3) historical perspective. Nrets 00:54, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I like that approach. What you suggest is very clear and correct: the limbic system is a historically defined set of brain structures, and these structures support a variety of functions including emotion, memory, etc. I can see how introducing a list of other non-limbic structures could be pertty confusing. However, your suggested outline leaves an interesting problem: I think many of the visitors to this page will be specifically interested in learning more about the brain systems that primarily support emotion. To this end, perhaps there could be another page (that is at least easy to get to from this page) that discusses the neural circuitry of emotion. The emotion page might accomodate it, but neural circuitry seems a bit heavy for that discussion. The field of affective neuroscience is young enough that a new page there could probably adequately accomodate this information. A more cumbersome approach would be to create a page called brain structures related to emotion or the like. Whatever the approach, I believe that a more thorough and coherent discussion of the current understanding of emotional brain structures somewhere on wikipedia would be valuable. Any thoughts or preferences? sallison 06:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I went ahead an made an affective neuroscience page, on which I listed the brain structures related to emotion, as that seemed like the most appropriate solution to me. If you have any questions or concerns about that approach, just let me know. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing what you all have to add to the discussion of emotion. Cheers, sallison 11:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm in favor of having a section in the limbic system article. I think the best approach is start the article with a general description in simple layman's terms. Then, as a reader gets further into the article, they wade into the deep waters of neural circuitry. If the section gets big enough, then we rip it out and leave the {{main}} template. --TheLimbicOne(talk) 06:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] list at top of page

Although the list of structures at the top of the page is duplicate information (since the same links are in the limbic system navigation pane), I think we should keep it and keep it linked. However, my reason is very un-encyclopedic: having the list at the top of the page (with links) should give this page a higher search engine ranking. Comments? --TheLimbicOne(talk) 14:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

As the main article for the template, I feel this article should detail certain componants of the limbic system. It seems fine to me. Semiconscious · talk 21:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System is more active?

Before we declare as fact, based on a the 2006 edition of a 1991 high-school biology textbook that "the limbic system is more active in extroverts and risk-takers than in introverts and cautious people (Evers, 499)^[1]." shouldn't we address the problem of whether or not the limbic system actually exists, as discussed above? Even if it is "more active" somtimes, is it a question of who or of when? CheckFacter 18:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted intro text

I'm replacing the phrase about personality differences and opening this dialogue to prevent an edit war. Here is the reason given for deletion in the edit summary, "a high-school text-book is not a primary source,[sic] and doesn't fully explain discussion of comparative activity of the limbic system in personality." My response: 1. It's a college textbook. 2. "Fully [explaining] the discussion of comparative activity of the limbic system" would not go in the introductory paragraph. This phrase was intended to introduce a subject that should be further discussed under its own heading in the article's main body.--TheLimbicOne(talk) 14:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Can you look up the original works cited by that textbook? Extroversion/introversion mapping onto simple over/underactivation of the entire limbic system is an incredibly bold claim, and would (in my mind) require some remarkable evidence. A quick google scholar search for "extroversion limbic system" does not turn up much in the way of solid evidence. Rabenkrahe 21:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

High school and even college texts are liable to be outdated on this evolving topic. Recent scientific studies and reviews should be used as primary sources. sallison 20:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Eysenck's model of personality has been proposed to map under or over activation of the reticular activating system onto extraversion or introversion. i.e. introverts have more reactive reticular systems and therefore attain optimal cortical arousal at low levels of stimulation whereas extraverts posess relatively unreactive reticular systems and therefore seek out intense and novel stimulation. Perhaps someone has confused the reticular activating and limbic systems?----Random Interested Scholar 11:37, 27th August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect to Diencephalon

Is a redirect to Diencephalon really want we want, considering that that page has far less information than the previous Limbic System page? I'd suggest reverting, at least until a large quantity of information can be transferred (as of now it's essentially being lost), but thought I'd bring it up here first, considering revert guidelines say to use caution. --Hslayer 14:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article is severely outdated

Joseph LeDoux's 2000 review article contradicts much of this article, especially its 'evolution' section. Unfortunately I will not be able to expand this article myself in the coming months. The first five pages of LeDoux's paper, and its references, should be more than enough for this humble task. For other related articles see PMID 10845062 and [2]. Regards, Lior 06:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Lior that this article needs to be completely revised. It presents as factual and settled many putative theories. Not to mention the brevity with which the article attempts to talk current talk (e.g., limbic evolution).

Since you have read and understand the article you cited, please update the WP article. -Pgan002 22:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Joseph LeDoux should not be the sole source to rely upon on with respect to limbic system issues. His opinion is is disputed by a number of other neuroscientists. See, for instance, Jack Panksepp, Brain and Cognition, 52 (2003) 4-14. Among other things, Panksepp writes, in reference to LeDoux's 2000 paper mentioned above, "In my estimation, the increasingly prevalent limbic system bashing among emotion researchers reflects a misreading of the history of the field and the role of general concepts in promoting research and communication." Dexterbarsinister (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I have discussed this matter with Prof. Leszek Kaczmarek, who has contested the simple amygdalar connectivity suggested by Prof. LeDoux. Regarding the Limbic system, there is no argument between Kaczmarek and LeDoux - The limbic system was a nice hypothesis for its time, and it no longer bears any practical meaning. That is to say, there is no functional meaning to adding a given brain structure to the limbic system - there is nothing specific that limbic structures do and others don't. In this sense, the limbic system is just as useful as aether. Best, ליאור (talk) 17:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Science vs. History of Science

I would feel better about this article if it fell under the history of neuroscience, rather than the science itself. The history of science is full of concepts either controversial or simply wrong. (Semmelweis' work was controversial (!) at the time, and phlogiston is no longer an exciting basis for research.)

Further, a separate history of science classification is valuable in its own right. (And yet more work for the weary.)

Is this helpful? Ernstwll 20:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Only humans?

The intro and other parts of the article talk as if the limbic system is unique to humans. I doubt that this is so. Please correct the text to include other species which have a limbic system. -Pgan002 22:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Quite right; indeed if I'm not mistaken the limbic system is one of the oldest parts of the brain, found in mammals, birds and reptiles. -Patrick N.R. Julius (talk) 22:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The limbic system is DEFINITELY not unique to humans. KSUdvm2b (talk) 23:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)