Talk:Lighthouses in Ireland

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Contents

[edit] Merge Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland to this article

I am proposing this because Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland was created in November 2002 as a list with one entry, and still is a list with one entry. I might add that the one entry in that list is for a lightship that went out of service in 1896, which makes placing that article in a list of Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland anachronistic. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 14:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Disagree: While you are correct that this page was made nearly 4 years ago there are many more lightvessels that could be added from this page. If anything, I think the page should at least be renamed as Lightvessels in Ireland to comply with the authority of the Commissioners of Irish Lights who cover the whole of Ireland for navigational aids. Alternatively, we could rename it Navigational aids in Ireland and then add the buoys and other aids the CIL is in charge of because Lighthouses in Ireland is already quite long and does not really need to be diluted with topics that do not comply with the page title. For myself I have been busy with other things so have not even addressed the red inked lighthouses much less the other navigational aids but if you have the enthusiasm and ability I will be happy to give it some input but not as a merge. ww2censor 16:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
If there are a number of other lightvessels to add to the list, then that takes care of one objection I had. Moving the list to Lightvessels in Ireland would then take care of my other objection. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 02:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Disagree: (disagree with Dalbury; agree with Ww2censor). Distinct topics should form distinct articles. Yes, it needs more work, but keep it and expand it, don't bury it! Snalwibma 20:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Note that other lists do combine lighthouses and lightvessels. See List of lighthouses and lightvessels, Lighthouses and lightvessels in Australia, Lighthouses and lightvessels in Belgium, Lighthouses and lightvessels in Denmark, Lighthouses and lightvessels in Germany, Lighthouses and lightvessels in the Netherlands and Lighthouses and lightvessels in Sweden. I know that some of the light stations I have written articles for have had an alternation of lighthouses and lightships on (more or less) the same station. There is nothing inherently wrong with listing lighthouses and lightvessels in the same list. We should avoid lists that are very short, and the question of whether or not to combine lighthouses and lightvessels in a list should depend on how long or short the list(s) will be. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 02:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Donald, you are correct about some combined articles but all those you list above are considerably shorter than Lighthouses in Ireland which, IMHO, is already rather long, hence my objection to combining lightvessels with lighthouses. I can only see it having to be divided later on, so why give ourselves more work. Lightvessels would include lightships and I would suggest also buoys, and as I have pointed out there is plenty more information on the Commissioners of Irish Lights website. ww2censor 02:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It has been more than a month and no one else seems to agree with this suggestion, so I will remove the merge tags and try to expand the Lightvessels in the Republic of Ireland page but will rename it Lightvessels in Ireland as appropriate to the jurisdiction of the Commissioners of Irish Lights. Cheers ww2censor 03:32, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Maidens

Could someone write an article about the maidens lighthouses —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iainy (talk • contribs) 10:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Merge (2)

I hadn't seen the above discussion when I added the merge tags. The Lightvessels in Ireland article is a silly orphan. We cannot expand it as there are no more Lightvessels. Lets just merge it it and be done. If someone finds a PD archive with loads of photos and details of the history of LV's in Ireland then maybe that would be worth creating a new article for. But as it stands it is plain daft to have a list of 1. Frelke 07:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Agree. Merge them (and ignore any comments to the contrary from me above)! Snalwibma 08:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose. There in quite a lot of information about the lightvessels available but I have been concentrating on other topics since I last worked on the Lighthouses in Ireland page. Try this page for a start off and you will see that Lightvessels in Ireland can become a decent page in its own right with at least 37 vessels to be discussed or at least listed. It is just that no one has yet bothered to do anything about it. It would be stupid to merge now and then de-merge later. IMHO Lighthouses in Ireland is already long enough. If no one else will add to this page then I will do it, but not now as I am busy with other stuff and will not have much time in the next 6 weeks. ww2censor 12:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
OK - on that basis I think it would be good to see Lightvessels in Ireland developed, and you have convinced me that there is enough material out there! I retract my agreement to the merge (and I promise I'll do my research properly before I next open my mouth) - but I have no time to do anything much about expanding the page at present. Snalwibma 13:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Well sorry about this, but that is all content for a History of Irish Lightvessels article. I'll only say this once. There is only one Irish lightvessel. It is the South Rock Light Float. It is unmanned and is due to be replaced by a buoy very shortly. Its last sibling was replaced on the Coninbeg station by a buoy at the end of last year. The list on the CIL site is a historical list. And a very good one at that. But it does not list Lightvessels IN Ireland. It lists Lightvessels that used to be in Ireland. Any article compiled from such data - aside from the fact that it is copyright - should be titled as as History of .... The Lighthouses in xxx and Lightvessels in xxx series of articles are intended to be lists, not textual articles. We would therefore only be expanding this list by one, and then only for a very short time until it is replaced by a buoy. When we see a list, it should be a safe assumption that those items listed actually exist. It is/will be a list of 1 at most. Plain stupid. Frelke 14:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Comments Well actually I'm sorry but I think Frelke's concepts are completely flawed. So let's consider them.
If we are considering starting an article for the historical Irish lightvessels as History of Irish Lightvessels then we also have to move all historical information from any of the other lightvessel articles to a new History of xxx county lightvessels like those included in the current Lightvessels in the United States and Lightvessels in the United Kingdom, to name those I found quickly. According to this concept then any article that is called Xyz in xxxx should not contain any historical information. That would mean pulling historical from hundreds, if not thousands, of articles. No, no, no!!!
As for mentioning that South Rock is the only lightvessel in use, then all others should be on a History of ... page negates the fact that there are at least two Irish lightvessels now used for other purposes; Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum and Petrel that is the Down Cruising Club in Ballydorn. Would Frelke agree with me that these lightvessels are in Ireland because they certainly do not fit his description of used to be in Ireland? They are still in Ireland! Oh, but according to his article name concepts, maybe they should be in yet another article called Lightvessels in Ireland that used to be in the service of the Commissioners of Irish Lights because they really don't fit perfectly into History of Irish Lightvessels because they still exist. BTW, the Kilmore Quay Maritime Museum is specifically being retained in the same style and with the same fittings as it was when functioning.
Who ever suggested it is forbidden to add any textural information to the Lighthouses in xxx and Lightvessels in xxx articles. Some do have textural information, so if we follow Frelke concepts maybe those too need to be removed to some new, albeit, short stubs. I can find no policy or guideline anywhere that these articles must be pure uninformative lists only. The Irish Maritime or lighthouses WikiProjects don't mention anything along the restrictive lines Frelke seem to promote, though I do see that one goal is: "To improve Wikipedia's coverage of Irish maritime issues". Tiny articles or stubs that might not get much additional information would seem appropriate to be grouped together in one article and as the Irish lightvessels might not get much extra data, a short description would seem quite fine in the Lightvessels in Ireland and not in History of Irish Lightvessels.
As for the suggestion that the one source I happened to mentioned might be used as a copyright violation is insulting (maybe not intended as such) to me. If you look at my edits you will see that as a person who (when on RC patrol) reports copyvios, and tags them, when I see them. There was no suggestion that the CIL page should be used in its entirety. Besides which there are other sources that give information about the Irish lightvessels that can be used as additional resources.
So the article will have at least three entries for the time being. Though we might need another new article in which we will add Le Batofar that is being used as a disco on the Seine in Paris?
Snalwibma seems to understand, but I'm sorry, I think Frelke concepts on this particular topic are plain stupid! ww2censor 05:16, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ferris Point Lighthouse & Blackhead lighthouse.

Proposed Edit.

Both Ferris Point and Blackhead Lighthouse's are still maintained by the CIL. The attendant keeper for Ferris also maintains Blackhead and navigational harbour lights in Larne harbour including Chaine Tower. Larne Harbour Ltd, does have Radar equipment atop Ferris Point Lighthouse, but that is as far as their remit extends. The Irish Landmark Trust only maintains the old keeper dwellings at Blackhead not the Tower and navigational equipment. Glink187 20:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The information in the article was obtained from the CIL web site some time ago, so if you have a verifiable source then please amend the entries as appropriate quoting the source of the current data. Thanks ww2censor 17:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
http://www.cil.ie/sh676x4627.html Under section entitled Alternative uses of lighthouse property. Shows the extent of the uses of each station. Glink187 00:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC) 17:16, September 20, 2007)
Please sign your posts and quote your source in the article. Thanks ww2censor 22:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RNLI

Should RNLI really have a link to this page? Both Instituions are completely seperate and unlinked. Glink187 13:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Defunct lighthouses

Is there scope for a section listing defunct lights, whose "ownership" may not be clear? The example I am thinking of offhand is Killyleagh in Down. 13:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)194.237.142.21 (talk)

do you mean this one [1] ? ClemMcGann (talk) 13:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
That looks a good candidate. And there are others dotted around, such as the old lighthouse at Howth. I guess any work in this area needs to be cautious, not to reach back to all "lights that were" such as the old Bailey Lighthouse, in a different location, no traces extant. But perhaps a section for extant but wholly non-functional light points, not under one of the major owners listed ...
On a small point of structure, would it be better for the "non-CIL lights" to be listed, as the CIL ones are, in order round the coast, rather than in some order by the name of the owning party (which could change over time)? SeoR (talk) 19:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
If we are changing the list how about using 51°28.593′N, 9°42.273′W (for crookhaven) rather than the present columns? ClemMcGann (talk) 21:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I always thought the article was about current lighthouses, especially when I first worked on putting a comprehensive list together, but if you think it appropriate to add a defunct lighthouses section that might work as a separate table listing the location and current owner or organisation responsible with coords if necessary like the main table. ww2censor (talk) 23:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Let's see, here or in a Sandbox, if there is enough material (say at least three such items). SeoR (talk) 07:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Put whatever you can muster here and let's look at it first. ww2censor (talk) 13:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)