User talk:Lielei/MaNGOScp

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[edit] MaNGOS

MaNGOS (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (restore|cache|AfD)

MaNGOS is very important open source project for MMORPG game server core , it can simulate World of warcraft very smoothly, altought to establish a public wow server is illegal. actually lots of illegal wow server s are based on this project, regardless it breaches policy and license of MaNGOS. So please keep this article. This project is very interesting. Lielei 23:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I looked at this while it was tagged for G4 deletion. The only significant difference that I saw was this new link/reference. http://www.gotwow.ic.cz/, (World of Warcraft Emulation History v2.99|date=2007-08-29|accessdate=2007-10-31|author=Jan Josef Oudrnický), a PDF file to be accessed from that link rather than directly at it. I wasn't able and willing to open the file on this computer in this location. Even if it is a reliable and independent source (I think the second is likely, the first dubious), this would be only one reliable and independent source. I didn't do the G4 deletion because I hadn't looked at the new source, but I didn't see how it could possibly be a sufficient enough change to address the concerns of the AFD. I am thus included to endorse deletion, but could easily be persuaded to relist if multiple reliable and independent sources can be found. GRBerry 01:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse my deletion and the half dozen others subsequent - the Afd discussion generated no new sources; the one new one since is discussed above by GRBerry and it doesn't change anything - it too is not an independent reliable source. Carlossuarez46 02:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • This project is bit different, in terms of independent source, there are many: [1], [2], [3]. There is one news article in Chinese website title is “Open source implementation of world of warcraft server” which is analysis of the structure and software architecture of MaNGOS server and also the legitimate issues. The links are (but in Chinese): [4], [5], [6], they are also adopted by google news China. Myself has installed different versions of MaNGOS and tested them which can validate the creditability of this article. However, the license of MaNGOS itself forbids your publicly discuss install MaNGOS as World of Warcraft server. That is why there are rarely good independent source to have serious discussion of its software and development issues rather than lots of installation guide. Underneath Blizzard Entertainment pressure, a few similar projects had been taken down. However the open source game server emulator is very interesting phenomena for both open source community and gaming community, in terms of software, legitimation and community ecosystem. Among them, MaNGOS is most famous project. If you ask any people who contribute open source online game project, they would know MaNGOS project. And if you know any people who setup illegal wow server, they will definitely tried MaNGOS. Another reason for me to protest is the previous deletion based on “no notability” which seems to be ridiculous. Although the developers deliberately keep low profile, but you can check the statistic of SVN commit out in sourceforge: [7] Every single day it has over 2000-3000 read transactions, which is obviously greater than some other open source projects which have names in wikipedia. I just feel a little bit arbitrary to close this item and feel sorry for that wikipeida doesn't include such interesting article. and some one may suspect Blizzard is behind this. - Lielei 09:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse deletion. Lielei's notes about server hits etc are irrelevant to notability. The three links provided are simple how-to guides, rather than discussions or commentary on the significance of the software. (As an example of the trivilaity of howto guides when assessing notability, one small piece of utility software which I wrote a decade ago has three independently-written usage guides, because each of the three known users wrote their own notes on their very different configurations of it). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse and salt - The reasons you desire to recreate the article seem to be 1. The license of MaNGOS itself forbids publicly discussing installation of MaNGOS as World of Warcraft server, so Wikipedia should risk litigation and publish this information. 2. No reliable source has ever contacted people who contribute to open source online game projects and asked them about MaNGOS and this makes MaNGOS famous. 3. The MaNGOS topic is interesting and very important to you. The best way to get DRV to agree to recreate the article is to prepare a draft article in your user space using only information from reliable sources that are independent of MaNGOS. Then, return to DRV and request that the article be recreated using your draft as the next post. With six speedy deletes after a September 2007 AfD, the only way I see this article being recreated is with a footnoted draft. -- Jreferee t/c 15:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse and salt per Jreferee's excellent breakdown. You can't go on "just ask anyone", because that fails WP:RS and WP:V. An argument that the RS don't exist is not only illogical (if it does have any use beyond this one "illegal" implementation, why doesn't anyone discuss that?), but doesn't really solve the problem of lack of sourcing. At the very least if it's this notorious you'd have articles ABOUT the secrecy. This is sort of akin to a certain businessman's DRV below in which he claims that the sources don't exist because he pays a PR agency to suppress publicity. Ohhhhkay. --Dhartung | Talk 20:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Overturn - The reason for this decision is that MaNGOS is a free alternative to World of Warcraft service. The World of Warcraft article masquerades as an advertisement and as an soapbox for Blizzard entertainment products and services, see the pricing section in the WoW article which is blatant advertising (no pricing on MS Windows Vista). We will continue to see articles about the elite and commercial products covered more (see systematic bias) because the policies of Wikipedia support media bias towards affluent infomedia and entities of high authority who cater to other affluent individuals hence more bias coverage towards commercial products and services. MaNGOS is tied closely to the Warcraft universe, so any real official reporting would be self incriminating in the United States ...admittance to using unauthorized WoW universe content and breaking blizzard EULA admittance of using a WoW client to non blizzard server. Blizzard uses the EULA and scare tactics to force people to use their servers. Also when you read [8] (the http://www.gotwow.ic.cz/ article that covers some other emulators other than MaNGOS), it tells the story about the legality of emulators (DMCA) and how MaNGOS's leader trys to avoid legal conflicts with blizzard and the work that went into "the core" (software design) of MaNGOS. The deleters are only censoring the fact of the existence of this free server alternative (as opposed to blizzard's own servers) which users can use. Readers and researchers are left with questions: What exactly can a WoW emulator do? Is there any product that I can use to make my own MMORPG? How usable is this piece of free software to create my own MMORPG content? Why do I need to speed +$100 dollars towards Blizzard is there another alternative software/service I can use other than WoW. How better or worse is it compared to the "real" server? And the obvious, Is MaNGOS illegal and why? Deleters ignore the fact that Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia. To delete is article software, we do not provide a truly free alternative (to the fair use text on many blizzard WoW universe articles in Wikipedia) and only encouraging the monopoly blizzard has over WoW service. Also WP:CITE/WP:V only says for material that is likely challenged. As with notability, there is bias towards commercial legal alternatives and not free software...you can cite all the reliable self published sources in the world but not even close to the quality threshold. MaNGOS has been shown on YouTube but yet policy suppresses this. None of the material in this article is highly controversial and can be verified though the wowcz article. Also the motion to delete with 1 vote was not WP:CONCENSUS. The administrators are only based their deletion track record on the mistake of other admins who did not carefully check the reasons why for deletion (initially notability) are now formulating new grounds and reasons to delete now. Two of the admins play commercial popular games had a need to speedy delete MaNGOS article which left an impression of bias towards commercial games and misunderstanding of free software. - 6etonyourfeet (talk?) 22:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Very sharp and critical comments indeed. I wish I could write clear English as you. The main purpose of restoring MaNGOS is not because this article is important for me but is because wikipedia should be a free encyclopedia which allows people to freely, neutrally record important term/item which happens in our society. The legality involved in item/term/article itself can be questionable. But that should NOT prevent people from talking about it. The extreme example might be like "Wikipedia delete s Hitler Adolf because he is criminal". In this situation, wikipedia cannot keep MaNGOS, because the legitimation of this project is problem. Apparently, no notability is the direct reason for deleting this article, however, most people know MaNGOS is famous underground. And due to the reason you mentioned above. The are few sources which official discuss it because of avoiding legal hassles. This actually damages the impartiality of measurement of "notability". Since big company and business control the rights of voice. It appears the Cultural hegemony has polluted the freedom of wikipedia.Lielei 17:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Nice try, guys, but Wikipedia does not exist to promote free software just because it itself is a free information product. You are both imputing, without evidence, bad-faith motives of other editors, when the simple matter is that your software project falls short of our requirements for reliable sourcing. You offer reasons why the reliable sourcing doesn't exist, but no justification for this unsourced information being in Wikipedia other than that you think it's important. The one thing that is going to get this back into the encyclopedia is coverage in independent, credible sources. The day that happens, you are welcome to recreate or come back to DRV with a sourced draft. --Dhartung | Talk 16:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Endorse and salt per Jref's well-reasoned comments. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment MaNGOS has been mentioned in the book "Exploiting Online Games: Cheating Massively Distributed Systems" authors "Greg Hoglund; Gary McGraw" publisher "Addison Wesley Professional" ISBN 9780132271912. Mention in sections "Emulation Servers (Private Servers)" and "Conversions and Modding". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Getonyourfeet (talk • contribs) 00:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] MaNGOS

A Proposed Deletion template has been added to the article MaNGOS, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you endorse deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please add {{db-author}} to the top of the page. shoy (words words) 13:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

MaNGOS is very important open source project for MMORPG server game, it can simulate World of warcraft very smoothly, alought to establish a pbulic wow server is illegal. actually lots of illegal wow server s are based on this project, regardless it breaches policy and license of MaNGOS. So please keep this article.
One of my friends if doing his project based on research the code structure of Mangos.Lielei 19:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand! wikipedia suppose to be open to discuss any issue, in terms of deletion of MaNGOS, I leave the message in discussion page, and leave the message here. But there is no reply no discussion! only deleted by silence. what wrong with this it is not wikipedia style. I need to discuss with somebody. I think the deletion is vandalism. Future more, the deletion tag says it will keep for 5 days but only one day it is deleted. Somebody explain to me. without explaination and discussion just give me a link to general deletion policy which may not apply to this. I am not satisfy with this.Lielei 19:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Here it is Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/MaNGOS. The software is notable underground but the problem is the sourcing being independent of the subject. Many reliable sources have a slant towards coverage of commercial (non-free) products and non-free software so its difficult to find them. So Wikipedia has a systemic bias coverage towards commercial software. PvPGN is another (free open source) blizzard emulator but that article doesn't currently cite text but provides reliable source.. - 6etonyourfeet (talk?) 23:21, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Also the motion to delete was not consenus. 1 vote is not consensus. I would have voted keep. - 6etonyourfeet (talk?) 23:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)