Talk:Lie-to-children

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I've seen the term "Lies-To-Children" pop up in more and more places over time. I think it's a very useful concept, and it's probably actually taken (mostly) seriously by now. In any case, I think it probably warrents a wikipedia entry. Kim Bruning 20:16, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Is a specific term that is found in a number of books that try to explain modern philosophy of science to the layman.

I started the page and intend to maintain it and make it clearer. Read the references. I would have duplicated much of the referenced text , but I'm not certain of copyright status. Kim Bruning 08:33, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If this page *does* get VFD, I'd support moving it to meta instead. Kim Bruning 08:46, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Some of this stuff deserves to be in a meta/Wikipedia: article, though some of this stuff deserves to stay here... Dysprosia 08:50, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] The weight/mass example

Physics has always been of interest to me because it describes how the material world works but it seems like you can always keep asking, "Why is it like that?"

I came across the following on a physics page, and there is a bit of discussion about it at Talk:Neutrino.

"Mass is really a coupling between a left handed fermion and a right handed fermion. For example, the mass of an electron is really a coupling between a left handed electron and a right handed electron, which is the antiparticle of a left handed positron."

If you go to the mass article, you will not find the words "coupling" or "fermion". Based on non-wiki webpages such as this, I think that the mass article simply fails to mention a fundamental fact about mass that is known to particle physicists. "To keep the truth to one's self is no lie"? JWSchmidt 02:36, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Most of the newer physics Books I've been able to find recently don't use the "mass increases at near the speed of light" explanation, opting for "You need to calculate momentum and kinetic energy differently at near the speed of light" instead. See Mass in special relativity for examples Notovny

The "speed of light" as used in Special Relativity is the speed in vacuum (c), so I'm changing it in #3 and removing #4 as it does not apply (also see the h2g2 article). Notovny, I took the liberty to fix a typo in your link; hope you don't mind. Arielco 02:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it might be useful to add some explanation of the context of each of the examples, and relate that to other learning:

  • Weight is constant. This is true within the context of "on earth" (to fit with the examples given, 'on the moon or on Mars') or more completely "at a consistent distance from another mass"
  • Mass is constant. This is true within the context of the measured object being at a constant velocity.

Hawke666 18:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modified the final example

I felt that the PhD reference was inappropriate, as someone far removed from PhD level study could concieve independently of the concept demonstrated.

Instead, I added text to indicate that, as people develop intellectually, they reach a level of comfort with the material to begin to advance the art. Tthis is what leads to intellectual advancement, not just for individuals but for society and science.

I think a reference here would be appropriate, there is nothing on the Speed of light article to indicate that light was significantly faster in the early universe, and although I have heard of scientific discissions on very minor variations in the fine structure constant (dependent on the speed of light), the only sources indicating massive variations in the speed of light are fundamentalist Christian ones. StuartH 00:39, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Although this is true, it's irrelevant to the example, and students know this way before they find out about variable mass - it's a critical part of high school optics. With this in mind, I've removed it from the article. 166.111.43.152 08:45, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, if the speed of light didn't vary, most of optics would be in disarray. The speed of light (at least according to relativistic physics) is constant in a vacuum. But it is a lot slower than 3*10^8 m/s in plenty of materials, for example, glass. Which is just as well, otherwise lenses wouldn't work...
Removed the c-decay fourth example (which is commonly considered to be false; see c-decay) and replaced it with a point based on your note here on optics. I'm not really happy with it, though: I think many people learn that the speed of light is medium-dependent before they study relativity. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 14:40, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vfd

On 18 Mar 2005, this article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Lie-to-children for a record of the discussion. —Korath (Talk) 06:03, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Opening Sentence

The opening sentence of the article ("A lie-to-children is an expression that describes a form of simplification of material for consumption by children") gives a misleading summary of the concept. As the rest of the article goes on to describe, "lies-to-children" describes the simplifications that are told to everyone, be they children, students, or even adults who don't need to know all the details. In fact, the book cited as the main source for the term ("The Science Of Discworld") uses it to describe the simplifications research-wizard Ponder Stibbons gives to the Archchancellor.

[edit] no criticisms section

This article is not neutral, and is heavily biased in favour of this policy. There are many criticisms and arguments against it, especially as these generalisations can lead to preconceptions in the subconscious that can make it harder to form a theory of everything for the individual later in life. -- Natalinasmpf 04:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Who wrote the mass example? Mass is constant throughout reference frames, what changes in relativity is the formula for momentum. Someone should write a better example.

The mass example seems to have been taken from H2G2. I love it, but I wouldn't use it as an encyclopedic source. --Valmi ✒ 01:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Policy? What? Hey? Oh... well it just says that this is what a lie to children is. not whether it's a good idea or whether you should try it at home. Kim Bruning 20:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the NPOV template; I cannot see how it is justified in the current revision of the article. --die Baumfabrik 01:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Variable speed of light

The sequence seems out of order to me. Most people learn in high school that the speed of light changes depending on the medium, but only learn in university that mass changes based on velocity. How can the sequence be modified to reflect this?

This whole example needs to be very much clarified in any case. The speed of photons is always the same, regardless of the speed of the electromagnetic wave. Too, the modern interpretation is that the mass of an object is constant and so the dependence of mass on velocity is not uniformly taught in University (it is certainly not the view taken by Griffiths or Jackson for example). My suggestion is that a completely different example be used. I think it may be difficult to find a sequence that is simultaneously illustrative of the concept and correct. Threepounds 05:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
The article that this points to Variable_speed_of_light is prefaced with "The VSL hypothesis is controversial, and most physicists do not accept it." This simply does not fit as an example of an outright falsity. -- unsigned
It's outright controversial ;-) And that is sort of the point. -- Kim Bruning 01:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] title

Shouldn't the title at the top of the page be "LieS-to-Children?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.152.108.244 (talk • contribs)

No. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.38.32.84 (talk • contribs)
Clarification: When possible, use the singular form as the title. --Damian Yerrick (☎) 15:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Should the title be "Pedagogic simplification", a less loaded term than "lie"? --Damian Yerrick (☎) 15:28, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, or would be if that wasnt such an obscure term. There comes a point where the clear term even though it may sound non-neutral, is still more helpful than an obscure one. Besides people who read the article will get the full information. The article is in danger of becoming unencyclopedic, I figure. Let's try some editing..... FT2 (Talk) 10:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
How about the term "Wittgenstein's Ladder" ? (See wiki:WittgensteinsLadder). --75.19.73.101 18:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Or perhaps "learning ladder"? A note at the bottom of The Ego and Its Own says this kind of learning ladder may have been coined by Arthur Schopenhauer. --75.19.73.101 18:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For Wikipedia:Lie-to-children?

No self references. Whoops! In any case here's the self referential text, it still might be useful for making a Wikipedia: page sometime.

When discussing things or adding articles to the wikipedia, it's very important to remember that much of what you have been taught is probably actually a lie-to-children, and that reality might be far different from what you thought it was.

Kim Bruning 09:31, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on article

The article doesn't seem to have found its feet yet. It is generally trying to cover the various themes of:

"Untruths, misrepresentations, lies and distortions, told to others for their own good or because they are too young or otherwise deemed unable or unsuited to hear and handle the actual truth in full."

It doesn't seem to cover simplifications as such, for example, because otherwise all present knowledge would probably be categorized as a "lie-to-children", and that's nonsensical.

It isn't clear what its subject is: to discuss how children (and other? What others?) may not be told the whole truth of something, typical circumstances, or benefits and criticisms, etc of doing so. It needs some thought, and I suspect a careful consideration - what is this article really about? What's its proper title? will help. Perhaps it should be merged into "White lie"? In fact it probably belongs there, a section in that article. FT2 (Talk) 10:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


  • Merged into "Lie". It sits there much better than in its own article, where it is hard to be sure what's POV and what isn't. In the context of a fuller article that becomes less of a problem. this article left in categories, and redirrect added. No textual change. Check out article "Lie" and its intro for more. FT2 (Talk) 10:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, seeing all current knowlege as a lie-to-children is a very useful point of view indeed. Especially if you happen to be a scientist.
  • In fact, doubly so if you're a wikipedian. We'd have 1/10 of the mediation requests if people would just take that point of view, because 9/10 of the time it turns out that eiter or both parties *are* actually using lies to children, oops! :-PKim Bruning 03:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Objection to merge

JA: This page was merged without adequate discussion. Please restore it and engage in due discussion. The concept of "lie-to-children" is apt, found in common use, covers a frequently occurring phenomenon in a succinct idiom, and manages to do so with a charming lack of pretension. Jon Awbrey 10:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

JA: I have reverted the merge pending appropriate discussion and standard procedures for renames and so on. I recommend placing a {{main|lie-to-children}} template in the appropriate section of the Lie article. Jon Awbrey 10:45, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Gosh no, no need for weird proceduralisticizationalism, sheesh!

But that said, um, I'm not sure what lie-to-children has to do with lie, except that the first three letters are similar. The merge was also just done bodily, losing this page history etc etc. I'm not sure there's really a point to the merge. (Sorry to the folks who spent some effort on it ^^;;)

Kim Bruning 15:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

JA: I'm just saying that I find this idiomatic chunk frequently useful as a link from other articles, and since its parentage, Ian Stewart (mathematician) et al., is quite respectable, I see no need to bastardize or institutionalize it. Jon Awbrey 15:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quote

Das Beste, was Du wissen kannst,
Darfst Du den Buben doch nicht sagen.

The best that you know,
You cannot tell the Boys.
— Goethe, Faust

I removed the above; it was right at the start of the article. It certainly doesn't belong there, but should it be incorporated into another part of the text? Does it help explain the concept or does it just add poetic flavor? --Grace 23:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

JA: It's called an epigraph. It's apt, to the point, and it explains a salient feature of the concept very succintly. Jon Awbrey 04:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I've looked up the guidelines on this point at Wikipedia:Lead_section, and I don't think it recommends the use of epigraphs. It says that the first sentence should immediately establish the concept in context, as in "In an essay or article, an introduction is...". Also, it says "Avoid using extended quotes in the lede". --Grace 02:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

JA: It seems that Goethe must be credited with having foreseen the tides of WikiPablum to come, and even the article Lie-to-children is too good to tell the kiddies. Jon Awbrey 02:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition in the "Lie" article

The Lie article uses this definition:

A lie-to-children is an expression that describes a lie told to make an adult subject, such as sex, acceptable to children. The most common example, though not currently in widespread use, is "The stork brought you."

In this article, the word simplification is used. The two definitions should be reconciled. Also, we should have some examples added that demonstrate the concept outside of the classroom such as in discussions about sex with children, as seen in the above quote. Also, in some cases,the use of such lies and simplifications are criticized, such the idea of parents these days still using "the stork brought you" response. --Cab88 16:21, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is discussing a different kind of lie to children. Make a subsection. Kim Bruning 03:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

Maybe this article should be titled "stupification" or "child abuse." Non-conventional schooling methodologies stress the importance of founding one's learning on experience, and do not pretend to educate children through dishonesty or direct deception. --Slac 03:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

lol. Feel free to mention non-conventional schooling methodologies in the article. Don't be biased though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.40.62.77 (talk) 04:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

You misread. No actual deception takes place. A lie-to-children is more like a first approximation --Kim Bruning 04:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC) yay! A mathematical analogy!

[edit] Flawed Examples

Take it from someone who recently went through education, that that is not what is tought. ex. mass is always considered a constant —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.66.201.137 (talk) 03:10, 17 July 2007

Poor you! --Kim Bruning 20:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References and (academic) honesty.

If you base your work in large part on the work of someone else, it is generally considered honest to point out that you used their work as a reference. There have been occasional scandals where people have not specified references correctly. While h2g2 is not exceptionally dignified as a reference, it *was* used in the creation of this article, and therefore The Right Thing To Do is to actually credit the relevant article with a reference, imho. If I'm mistaken, could you please point out how and why? --Kim Bruning 20:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

H2G2 is not a reliable source and we should not base articles on it (nor, in my opinion, link to it at all). While the example given is hardly a massively disputable "fact" it comes from a poor source. I'm inclined to remove it entirely lest people start using random blogs as sources of examples. violet/riga (t) 20:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
This particular piece on H2G2 is well written and even includes a dead-tree reference. I tend to judge texts based on the quality of their content, not on their location. (note that this article was written before the reliable sources guideline was). But that's not my key concern here.
Could you please address my principle concern: that erasing the reference would be somewhat dishonest? --Kim Bruning 21:38, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Of course it is appropriate to note sources, but how far down the chain can we go? We should not present something as a citation when it is itself merely a copy of another source. An example does not necessarily need referencing, and pointing to such a poor source as h2g2 while seemingly presenting it as the original is not really appropriate. violet/riga (t) 22:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Have you checked the article itself? It's actually not bad. --Kim Bruning 23:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I have, and often look at h2g2 articles. Similarly many blogs can be well written but are not acceptable as a source (unless directly related). violet/riga (t) 08:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
If an article is well written, it is well written. I don't quite see the problem? --Kim Bruning 13:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Because of the way h2g2 articles is written we cannot claim that it is reliable, hence it is not an appropriate source. violet/riga (t) 15:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
If the article checks out, it checks out. Copyright issues aside, if this article had been copied verbatim to wikipedia, it would have received some editing to fit it into our (somewhat more boring :-P ) style, but it would be accepted. You appear to insist that this is insufficient? Very well, how does the manner in which this h2g2 page came about invalidate that fact? --Kim Bruning 15:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It does not invalidate it, it is just an unreliable source. Articles at h2g2 are not fact-checked in any way and are looked upon in the same way as forums, private websites and blogs. violet/riga (t) 20:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
That may or may not be true in the general case, but the fact of the matter is that this article has been fact checked now, and the facts check out against other sources. So the general case does not hold true in this specific case. Could you please address this specific case? --Kim Bruning 23:02, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
It could very easily be falsely referenced there, but if it is verbatim then we should use the original source. I'd recommend an alternative example. violet/riga (t) 14:09, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's assume for a moment that we've done all our checking, and both articles turn out to be perfectly correct; with all else remaining the way it is. Is there still a reason not to use this source? --Kim Bruning 10:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC) ie: I'm trying to find out if there are additional assumptions that I'm missing
We should then use the printed source as it is the original. violet/riga (t) 16:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
In future, perhaps I might (though I remain unconvinced). Be it as it may, that is not the situation now. I *did* use h2g2 as my source, and it is a strong influence on the current article text. The h2g2 based text is correct, it is accurate, it has withstood a long period of peer review on wikipedia so far (though that's no absolute guarantee, of course).
So that's the current situation, and you need to play the ball where it lies.
As far as I can tell the article ain't broke, so why fix it?
If you feel a need to remove the quoted source, you will need to remove all text "tainted" by that source as well, or you would be guilty of misrepresenting your sources. Misrepresenting sources is an act that isn't permitted in newspapers or peer-reviewed journals.
Naturally, that would leave the article in a sad state, so you'd need to rewrite the parts you ripped out from scratch, based on the new source.
I don't see the gain from that, but I have no objections if you take on the task yourself, provided that the article quality does in fact improve. If the article does not improve, I shall revert you, of course. --Kim Bruning 10:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
If an article uses an inappropriate source that content can be removed and reverting such changes would not be taken well. You know the policies. violet/riga (t) 11:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, sure, you have made a claim that the source text is unreliable or inappropriate. The thing is: you haven't actually backed that up in any way yet. Would you care to give that a shot? --Kim Bruning 16:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
In other news, if we do somehow remove the h2g2 reference, we'd probably need need to actually read and correctly reference "The Collapse of Chaos and Figments of Reality". --Ian Stewart, Jack Cohen . --Kim Bruning 21:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)