Talk:Licio Gelli

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[edit] Calvi, God's banker

In the essay concerning Licio Gelli it is stated that Roberto Calvi was known as "God's Banker". This is not so: "God's Banker" was Paul Marcinkus.

It's true. Another correction: it seems that the expulsion of P2 from organised freemasonry was not in 1976. What is the source for this? I didn't find. Gelli itself was expelled only at the end of 1981 (some months after the discovering of the members list). This can be read in a page of GOI (Grande Oriente d'Italia) site (in italian). I found the same 1976 factoid also in Freemasonry#Criticism.2C_persecution.2C_and_prosecution. --Marcok 23:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Calvi was known as "God's Banker" (The Independent for example). But Marcok, if you know that, why did you remove it? Tazmaniacs

[edit] La Repubblica interview

translated as i could the Repubblica interview. If somebody who has better Italian skills can finish the job... especially the part concerning Aldo Moro...

[edit] Involvement in murder of Pope John Paul I

As well as his numerous other crimes it has also been alleged, by the author David Yallop, that Licio Gelli was involved in the murder of Albino Luciani, Pope John Paul I. Yallop specifically links this to the Banco Ambrosiano affair and murder of Calvi. His theory was that Gelli effectively organised the Pope's murder through Calvi and his associates. Calvi was later disposed of because he knew too much.


[edit] Tina Anselmi

“A Parliamentary Commission, directed by Tina Anselmi (of the Christian Democratic party), found no evidence of crimes”.

“No evidence of crimes”? There’s much more than simple violations of the penal law! Please read this:

“L'esame degli avvenimenti ed i collegamenti che tra essi è possibile instaurare sulla scorta delle conoscenze in nostro possesso portano infatti a due conclusioni che la Commissione ritiene di poter sottoporre all'esame del Parlamento. La prima è in ordine all'ampiezza ed alla gravità del fenomeno che coinvolge, ad ogni livello di responsabilità, gli aspetti più qualificati della vita nazionale. Abbiamo infatti riscontrato che la Loggia P2 entra come elemento di peso decisivo in vicende finanziarie, quella Sindona e quella Calvi, che hanno interessato il mondo economico italiano in modo determinante. [...] La seconda conclusione alla quale siamo pervenuti è che in questa vasta e complessa operazione può essere riconosciuto un disegno generale di innegabile valore politico; un disegno cioè che non solo ha in sé stesso intrinsecamente valore politico - ed altrimenti non potrebbe essere, per il livello al quale si pone - ma risponde, nella sua genesi come nelle sue finalità ultime, a criteri obiettivamente politici.

Le due conclusioni alle quali siamo pervenuti ci pongono pertanto di fronte ad un ultimo concludente interrogativo: è ragionevole chiedersi se non esista sproporzione tra l'operazione complessiva ed il personaggio che di essa appare interprete principale. È questa una sorta di quadratura del cerchio tra l'uomo in sé considerato ed il frutto della sua attività, che ci mostra come la vera sproporzione stia non nel comparare il fenomeno della Loggia P2 a Licio Gelli, storicamente considerato, ma nel riportarlo ad un solo individuo, nell'interpretare il disegno che ad esso è sotteso, e la sua completa e dettagliata attuazione, ad una sola mente. Abbiamo visto come Licio Gelli si sia valso di una tecnica di approccio strumentale rispetto a tutto ciò che ha avvicinato nel corso della sua carriera. Strumentale è il suo rapporto con la massoneria, strumentale è il suo rapporto con gli ambienti militari, strumentale il suo rapporto con gli ambienti eversivi, strumentale insomma è il contatto che egli stabilisce con uomini ed istituzioni con i quali entra in contatto, perché strumentale al massimo è la filosofia di fondo che si cela al fondo della concezione politica del controllo, che tutto usa ed a nessuno risponde se non a sé stesso, contrapposto al governo che esercita il potere, ma è al contempo al servizio di chi vi è sottoposto. Ma allora, se tutto ciò deve avere un rinvenibile significato, questo altro non può essere che quello di riconoscere che chi tutto strumentalizza, in realtà è egli stesso strumento. Questa infatti è nella logica della sua concezione teorica e della sua pratica costruzione la Loggia Propaganda 2: uno strumento neutro di intervento per operazioni di controllo e di condizionamento.”

So: the Anselmi commission said very clearly that P2 was an instrument for the achievement of political objectives in Italy: it was used by someone – by whom? That’s not said, but the most reasonable conjecture seems to be the United States.

[edit] Gelli--Alive or Dead

I recently read in the "Arctic Beacon" that Licio Gelli had recently died, but I can't find any independent corroboration for this. Does anyone know if he is still under house arrest, escaped house arrest, or has died?claimman75 05:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

    • After looking into it a bit I think someone confused his death with the recent death of Paul Marcinkus.claimman75 23:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I added pov tag, the article is riddled with unsourced views and Gladio conspiracies, and lacks any structure whatsoever. Intangible2.0 15:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

About Haig, Ledeen etc. This conspiracy is all based on the sole testimony of Francesco Pazienza, an assistant to Roberto Calvi. Intangible2.0 15:58, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

While far from an expert in Italian politics and international crime I have read enough on the issue to reckon that the article presents a balanced acount of its subject. Better structure and more sources(though 9 sources thus far can't qualify for an "unsourced" article as the above reader claims this is) could do it much more justice, but so is the case with 99% of wikipedia's articles despite the copious efforts of editors and other volunteers here. I don't see why we should retain the pov tag just because one user decided (on a whim allow me to say it seems) its content is disputed. The fact that this user didn't provide any counter evidence or sources, or really any rationale on what he or she dispute or why, and also the fact that no other user has thus far disputed or found pov any parts of the article I am removing the tag. 84.254.50.105 06:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:AGF, I can readily provide the articles that support the role of Francesco Pazienza in this. Intangible2.0 22:29, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Eight sources also doesn't seem paltry to me. Also, is your POV issue just with the Haig/Ledeen part, or with the whole thing? If the former, can you put the POV tag on just the Haig/Ledeen part? And please provide the articles about Francesco Pazienza. Thanks. Katsam 10:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Well the Ledeen stuff is already out, this concerned "Billygate" and supposed payments of SISMI to Michael Ledeen. Except for the 1990 Observer article, I cannot find any other references towards a Haig/Gelli/P-2 connection. This was part of the Casson investigation, so why are there no later articles about this? The main POV issue though remains that of Gladio and other conspiracies. Some material is not cited, for example "In 1970, he was to arrest the President during the failed Golpe Borghese" or "As headmaster of Propaganda Due, Gelli assumed a major role in Gladio's "strategy of tension" in Italy, starting with the 1969 Piazza Fontana bombing. Gladio was a clandestine "stay-behind" operation sponsored by the CIA and NATO to counter communist influence in Western European countries, which has been involved in terrorist false flags operations in Italy." These are serious accusations, which are just presented as fact here. Other material needs context, like the Gelli and the Bologno trial. Intangible2.0 22:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
There was of course the handout of money to general Vito Miceli. Maybe this is what the Observer article was referring to? Intangible2.0 13:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I removed the claim of Haig and Shackley. There need to be more independent sources that can attest to this claim. Removed per WP:NPOV, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Intangible2.0 23:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gelli and Gladio

There is a contradiction in the text about the alleged links between Gelli and Gladio. It claims "Gelli assumed a major role in Gladio's 'strategy of tension' in Italy" but a paragrasph later it says "The Gladio affair has been treated by the courts as having no sensible connection with the P2 affair". Those two facts contradict. I think the claim about the links between Gelli and Gladio needs to be treated more carefully. I changed the text accordingly. - Mafia Expert 19:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Although the sentence "The Gladio affair has been treated by the courts as having no sensible connection with the P2 affair" has some truth in it, it is not completely correct either, and lacks references. Gelli's sentence for investigation diversion in the 1980 Bologna railway station bombing is one judicial proof that P2 was not totally alien to it; furthermore, all three heads of the intelligence agencies at the time of Aldo Moro's kidnapping were also handed out similar sentences, and all of them were P2 members. To claim there is absolutely no link between Gladio, the strategy of tension & P2 is making a statement which goes against years of investigations, both judicial and historical, in Italy. Tazmaniacs 19:55, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not say there was no link, I said there is an over-emphasize on the role of Gladio in Italian history. Some people (and I don't mean you in particular) see Gladio behind every political scandal in Italy, a sort of giant conspiracy. I think things are somewhat more complicated. - Mafia Expert 20:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, nobody can control everything, that's paranoid thinking... Tazmaniacs 20:14, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The RAI interview with Brenneke included another supposed CIA agent, Ibrahim Razin. Intangible2.0 22:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1988 sentences

This diff shows that different news article say different things. Did he receive a life sentence in 1988, as the Philadelphia Daily News 12 July 1988 article source it? Or was he to the contrary "absolved by a Bologna court on charges of subversive association, but [was] presented with a 5-year prison term for slander, having side-tracked the investigation into the 1980 bombing of the Bologna train station. Stipulations from his extradition prevented him from serving time however." as the 11 July 1988 AP news cable source it? Note that the first version also includes other people condemned in 1988, including Paolo Signorelli, alleged mastermind of the bombing according to the Philadelphia Daily News, July 12, 1998, and Valerio Fioravanti, a member of the Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari (NAR) (according to: "Italy Sentences Four Terrorists in Deaths of 85," The Miami Herald, July 12, 1988), whose sentence was later confirmed. Tazmaniacs 12:31, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Valerio Fioravanti, Francesca Mambro, Massimiliano Fachini and Sergio Picciafuoco were the only one who received life sentences, they also received prison terms for belonging to an armed group; Paolo Signorelli and Roberto Rinani were absolved, but received sentences for belonging to an armed group. Intangible2.0 15:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nationality

British rather than English intelligence agency ? 14:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)