Talk:Liberators (comics)

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Contents

[edit] The Invasion?

Should we give detailed information about the invasion and the people involved? It is mentioned that The Liberators are just part of the collaberation which conspired for the invasion of america. We could note some of the key members and perhaps the torturing and extraction of information from Hawkeye


[edit] Supervillany Relative?

Should we mention something like their supervillany status is contraversial (sp) as they maybe perceived as freedom fighters? Or at least not completly 'evil' (thus questioning if they share qualities defined as 'Super-villany')

No. The comic makes it perfectly clear that the Liberators are supposed to be villains, at least to the same extent that other Ultimate titles make it clear that Magneto, Green Goblin, and Doctor Doom are villains. CarolinianJeff 22:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colonel Abdul Al-Rahman. The Ultimate Red Skull ?

Is Colonel Abdul Al-Rahman, The Ultimate Red Skull ?

yes

Wait a minute. Says who? All he has is a red helmet, and the fact he went through a super-soldier process similar to Captain America's.

No, he's not. The Ultimate versions bear the same name as the main Marvel characters (with the notable exception of The Ultimates team itself). If he was the Ultimate Red Skull, he'd be called "the Ultimate Red Skull." --Chancemichaels 00:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
He's not yet, you mean. Since, as I noted above, he went through the same process as Rogers, and sports a red helmet, I have a feeling (especially since there's no one else in the Mainstream Marvel universe to relate the Colonel with,) he's probably is/will soon be referred to as Ultimate Red Skull. Time will tell.

No he's not the red skull. In the Ultimates Annual 2, they mention something about some german doctor... thats the guy who engineered the Red Skull... So i guess we can expect an upcoming story arc involving the Red Skull some time soon

The Liberators are the Ultimate Masters of evil...Colonel Abdul Al-Rahman is Wonder-man...(in the original marvel universe he starts off as a villain) hence the W on Colonel Abdul Al-Rahman's chest.


[edit] France?

How can France be both a part of The Liberators and The EDI (European Captains) who help The Ultimates and The US goverment invade Syria Croatnik 05:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Liberators' main base of operations is in France, but that doesn't mean the French government is supporting them. 199.79.168.160 01:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
The EDI is a European Union progum of wiach France gov't is a part of, the France poeple are out rage by the 2003 Invasion of Iraq--Brown Shoes22 02:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Certain parties in France are in support of the Liberators I beleive, but not necessarily the government. And they did "give" the Schizoid Man to the Liberator's cause. (Whipsandchains 21:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC))
My guess is because they are hated by Americans in terms of politics. I mean all the members from the team are from countries that Americans hate because of current politics.That is my theory why the writer or whatever put France in there --Doomzaber 08:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Although the Liberators met in Paris, France wasn't mentioned as a member of the coalition while China, Russia, Syria, North Korea, and Iran were. I'm going to go ahead and change the text. Yeechang Lee 15:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I decided not to do so since I don't have the comics in front of me. Can anyone who reads the title confirm whether or not France has anywhere actually been stated to be a member of the coalition (as opposed to the Schizoid Man doing this on a freelance basis, or the group merely meeting in France)? On the other hand, to me the statement that the Liberators stole the European Union's nuclear codes to keep it from interfering with the conquest of the US is more evidence that France, the country, is *not* participating in the attack on the US. France and the US are still close allies, despite the rhetoric, and more to the point France and the UK are the only two European nuclear powers. Why would France need to steal nuclear codes from itself? Yeechang Lee 15:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Its not the entire nation of France thats affiliated with the coalition, just certain officials in high positions, the same for the other nations. The only country that was specified to be FULLY supportive of the coalition is North Korea, not even Iraq or the middle east was specified as being 100% for the cause. The French participants said "We were the ones that gave you the Schizoid Man".--whipsandchains 06:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
If that's the case, then I'm changing the main page, which currently states that "The coalition is initiated by France". ---Chancemichaels 20:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
One possibility- the French contribution was by a rogue/covert element of the government. After all, the guy said the Schizoid Man stopped a riot, didn't say where. Maybe in some foreign country of interest, ala the Ivory Coast.

[edit] Members List

Should the links to characters main articles link to the 616 mainstream version or to the Ultimate version, usually further down on the same page? I can go either way, but right now there's a mix of formats and that just annoys me ;) CovenantD 21:47, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

As this is talking about a group in the Ulitmate universe, it should link to the Ultimate versions of those characters, just like the other pages. JQF 01:38, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
Done. Where an Ultimate bio exists, the link now goes to that rather than the mainstream 616 version. CovenantD 16:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's important to point out The Liberators themselves are the super-group "that exceeded in the super terror trials," and are the "principal task force" for the coallition planning the attack on the United States. The Liberators are the group that appears at the end of issue 9, which appears in the profile picture for the article. Ant-Man and the Black Widow are NOT members of the Liberators, and it's midleading to state otherwise. They are simply allies or collaborators. I've changed the article accordingly.

[edit] Other Things?

guys should we also include the other things the liberators super-powered army brought with them, like those high-tech Airships bombarders from red alert 2 and more?

Why not? It can only help in providing more information....

[edit] Cleanup

I'm tagging this page for cleanup. It needs help - it's a mess, with grammatical errors, unsupported statements - "The coalition was initiated by France"? - and poor writing. Can someone help rewrite it? --Chancemichaels 16:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

I started to give it a go, but it occurred to me that the majority of this article is plot info and might more appropriately go on The Ultimates story arcs page. GentlemanGhost 09:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I tried my best to clean it up, but I must concur with GentlemanGhost, much of the information deals with the happenings of virtually all of Volume 2. It has to be said, because it directly involves the Liberators (or at least the coalition that funded them) and directly related to the super-group's eventual attack. Still, it makes more sense for the members to be above their history on the page.
I cleaned up the entire article, but work still needs to be done on that huge plot summary. A lot of it is good information but it's just too long, I need another set of eyes to take a look. Since the members section and intro are sufficiently cleaned up (IMO), I moved to cleanup tag to the plot summary section. Brad T. Cordeiro 18:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The cleanup was fantastic. It looks much better now. I made a few changes which I hope weren't too much, but I must say I'm embarassed I didn't catch that Loki's not an official member of The Liberator until today.

[edit] Captain America killing with impunity?

Something about the section describing Cap's escape is bothering me. In particular, the line reading "The Captain proceeded to beat The Schizoid Man and his duplicates all over the immediate area, apparently killing several with impunity." This line doesn't read as particularly encyclopedic, and the wording just seems off to me. I'm not sure what "apparently killing several with impunity" adds to the article, and it seems to put a negative spin on the events... as though Cap ought to face punishment for his actions (which is debatable, I suppose, but doesn't seem like it should be the goal of a wiki article). I'd like to change it, unless there's some objection? 147.240.236.9 15:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)Roy

I concur, it's not very encyclopedic, but it is contextually informative. Ordinarily comic book heroes don't kill their enemies, and I thought it was semi-important to note Captain America used excessive force in escaping. One panel has the Cap putting a duplicate's head into a wall with one foot! It looks to me like he's outright killing the Schizoid Man's clones, rather than just beating them up. As for punishment, the Cap is dealing with a small army of foreign invaders! He has a license to kill here. CovertSomnophore 01:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats true in the most literal sense. Captain America and the Ultimates are effectively military personnel, at least part of the time, and the Liberators are, at best, enemy soldiers, re: Geneva convention and suchlike. ( the fact that the nations backing them are almost certainly arranging plausible deniability, and at least some of the people are rogue operatives thereof probably, would likely push them into the non-state actors category, otherwise known as "Geneva doesn't apply" ).
More questionable is his execution of Al-Rahman later on. Given the circumstances, its an entirely understandable action, and I doubt anyone will hold it against him. Still, Al-Rahman technically could be considered an incapacitated prisoner at that point. I say "technically" because the lack of any viable prisoner-holding resources, the continued presence of hostile forces on the battlefield, and the fact that he could still pose a threat even without hands *might* push it under the "battlefield necessity" clause that excuses executing POWs if trying to take them prisoner would put an unbearable burden on the capturing unit.
Quite right. And look at the situation- the Colonel broke his word and attempted to behead Captain America after losing to him fair and square. Even after losing his hands, Al-Rahman didn't seem to be surrendering before Steve plunged the saber into his chest. (Nor is it likely Al-Rahman was the type to surrender no matter the circumstances.) It seems another example of the differences between Ultimate and Mainstream Marvel Universes-here our heroes are more likely to kill their enemies instead of simply beat them up and incarcerate them so they can return every few years.

[edit] Abdul Al-Rahman is not an Iranian name

That's Arabic , not Persian !

Well, at one point he says he's from Azerbaijan, could it be an Azeri name? :) Brad T. Cordeiro 18:11, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Which is weird, given he's shown as being a kid in Iran. I put it down to the super soldier serum effecting his sanity. . .
It's not a Azeri name either. Azeris in Iran have names similar to other Iranians. The style of his name also implies that he is a Sunni, which is incorrect as the majority of Azeris are Shia. Also, Azeris are of the same ethnic group as Persians, but their language is Turkic based. The amount of mistakes they made with this character is shocking. Nokhodi 07:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not only that, but there's no such thing as a super soldier serum! Brad T. Cordeiro
Ok I removed some confusion from the front page and replaced it saying he's from Iran. We're not completly sure if he's born there or what his ethnic group is, but what we do know is that he is Iranian (from the country, not necessarily born there). The debate about his ethnicity and whether he's Azeri should be placed in the trivia section of his own page and not on the liberators page. --Xallium (talk • contribs) 15:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perun's Hammer

I noticed someone said Perun wields both Thor's hammer and a sickle. I thought so when I first saw him, but note that Perun's hammer is thick and flat sided on each end, whereas Ultimate Mjolnir is a big hammer-axe. It can't be Thor's hammer for that reason, and because Thor is weilding Mjolnir when he reappears at the end of issue #12. His vest and belt look exactly the same as Thor's, but since there aren't any good full-body pictures, it's hard to tell if it's the exact same outfit.

Hey... it might be that storm breaker thingymabob

[edit] some notes...

  • Perun disappears in Ultimates 2 #12. He's just gone, which is a bit odd.
  • We've already seen a (different) Ultimate Crimson Dynamo in Ultimate Nightmare. Kelvingreen 14:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Perun's disappearance will most likely be explained in issue #13. And in the regular Marvel Universe has like 9 Crimson Dynamos so it seems safe to say that the one in Ultimates and the one in Ultimate Nightmare are just different versions. Brad T. Cordeiro 03:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I noticed it odd that he was just gone too. I'll bet one of the reasons #13 was so delayed was so that Hitch and Millar could include the panel resolving what happened to Perun. It seems like they forgot about him, from the anticlimacticness of his appearance in #13.


[edit] Schizoid Man

While the Ultimateverse Schizoid Man is obviously based on Jamie Madrox, an Earth-616 Spider-Man villain by that name does exist. I'm making a stub to elucidate the point. Luis Dantas 09:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Colonel (comics)

  • Nomination/merge- in the wave of current AdF's for minor characters - merge this character. He has exlusively appeared in the Ultimates, met his apparent death at the end of that storyline and has not been utilized since. Few sources, a few to none existed, mostly original research as this was a periferal character to the storyline. A merge now, save a deletion later. - 66.109.248.114 (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC).
merged due to no response -66.109.248.114 (talk) 21:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC).

[edit] So much redundancy

There is so much redundancy in this article. Lots42 (talk) 19:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)