Talk:Libby (Lost)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Libby (Lost) article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

	Libby (Lost) has been listed as one of the Arts good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
May 27, 2008 Good article nominee Listed

	Television Portal This article is part of WikiProject Television, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to television programs and related subjects on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the quality scale.
Assessment comments This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.

	This page falls within the scope of the Lost WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia articles relating to the 2004–2010 ABC television series Lost. Information on future episodes needs to follow the policy regarding sources.
GA	This article has been rated as GA-Class on the assessment scale.
Low	This article is on a subject of low-importance within Lost.

The spoken word version of this article is part of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, an attempt to produce recordings of Wikipedia articles. To participate, visit the project page.

Contents 1 Discussion 2 Dead 3 Not her flashback 4 Passenger status 5 References 6 Name 7 Semi-Protect 8 Clean-up needed 9 Fair use rationale for Image:Libbylost.PNG 10 Fair use rationale for Image:Libbyshot.jpg 11 Fair use rationale for Image:Libbylost.PNG 12 GA review

[edit] Discussion

I don't know anything about a Libby in Lost however when looking through the articles on Lost characters this page had a single line in the Biography section "just bull shit" I thought it nessecary to delete this although I am personally unable to write a good article for the character having not heard of here before this point. I hope someone will be able to expand this page in the proper fashion. Grend3l 19:21, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Again, there is apparently a deviant attacking this page edits have been made and a hopefully accurate biography added Grend3l 19:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what it means when it says that Libby is the only tail section survivor without a blackback episode. Only Eko and Ana have had one, while Libby, Bernard, and Cindy have all missed out as well. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Qorzm (talk • contribs) 11:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC).

Now, Libby is the only tail section survivor to not have her own flashback episode. Cindy doesn't matter because she disappeared before they joined the fuselage survivors. Otherwise, you can count people like the guy Ana Lucia accused of being an Other. Out of the tail survivors to join the main cast, everyone but Libby has had an episode devoted to their story. tv316 13:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, Libby is the only character to appear as a regular in the opening credits and also hasn't gotten a flashback episode. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kidicarus222 (talk • contribs) 20:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC).

Dead in the Show —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 157.157.215.160 (talk • contribs) 02:13, 4 May 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Dead

Was she killed when Michael shot her? His shots seemed like of off-target... did they show her dead in the next episode preview? - Joshua368 03:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I only saw Ana-Lucía dead in the preview, but she is definently in pretty bad shape. I'd be very surprised if she is alive. Zebov ^{(talk|contribs)} 03:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

If you will look closly you will see that she has the blanket in front of her. If you watch it over and over again, you will see that they very purposly made it look like she was holding the blanket close to her stomach.

My bet is that she had something in the blanket, inadvertantly, and it acted as a bullet proof vest of poor quality. In other words, it stopped the bullets, but not the force so she was knocked out.

This will put Michael in a spot. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.32.57.60 (talk • contribs) 06:17, 6 May 2006 (UTC).

Even if she's dead its unfair to put "?" as her last appearance as ABC have already reported Libby will play a key part in the flashbacks of the finale. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.133.93.229 (talk • contribs) 07:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC).

Libby is not (yet) dead. In a promo clip for ?, Jack says "He shot three of our people. One of them is dead." and then Sawyer says "Who's gonna watch after Libby while you're out playing Daniel Boone?" ShadowUltra 01:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Dangit, she died. Stupid Michael. - Joshua368 12:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Should this page even exist anymore now that we know she's dead? She had no flashbacks, and we know next to nothing about her, so why does she deserve her own page (as well as her name on the "characters of Lost" box on the bottom of the page) when people who have had flashbacks like Rose and Bernard do not?

It is unfair to put "?" as her last appearance as Damon Lindelof has revealed that Libby's character is indeed dead but her story will be told in an interesting way through other survivors flashbacks in the third season.

Libby is quite important to the Lost storyline, as will be revealed in the season finale. We will also find out her last name in this episode, according to spoilers.--Werthead 14:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Why the producers kill Libby, the rumors says cynthia wanna left the show to make another project

[edit] Not her flashback

How come people say that "Dave" is Libby's flashback episode when she only makes a brief apperance. She is in Eko's flashback, does that make it hers. Or how about saying that every flshback with Sawyer in it is his. You get the point right.

It was Libby's flashback, because it was obviously focused on her.

No it was not, the whole episode would of been hers, not just he last 5 seconds, look at the ofical list of episodes and see who flasback it was, not Libby's, Hurley's.

"Dave" is Hurley's flashback episode, it just happens to feature a brief one-scene flashback from Libby in the closing seconds of the episode. This no more makes it her flashback episode than the Pilot is Charlie's flashback or Kate's flashback because they have brief flashbacks within it. A Libby-oriented flashback was planned for Season 3 but was dropped when they decided to kill her off. Libby will appear in other people's flashbacks in Season 3 and in Desmond's flashback in the Season 2 finale. I added a link to the statement that she will continue to appear in Season 3 flashbacks. It's about halfway down the page, Cuse and Lindelof confirm that Cynthia will continue to appear in the show in flashbacks next year.--Werthead 14:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

This seems like a strange distinction. Walt Lloyd has really not had any flashback episodes either, as "Special" is really a Michael flashback episode (it follows his POV). He has brief flashbacks in Exodus, but the episode is clearly not his. I would rephrase that she is the only main character not to have a flashback ep, as it is pretty vague, and not exactly true. EDIT: I agree that she doesn't have a flashback episode, but I'm not sure she's the ONLY one without a flashback episode to date. --DDG 18:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

obviously, "dave" is about hurley's stay in the mental institution. that's VERY obvious. but the last flashback comes from libby: it first focuses on her before the flashback right before it happens, which suggests it was not hurley, but libby. in addition, it's from the pov of someone who can see that hurley has an imaginary friend, aka libby. the "briefly" should distinguish between a normal episode and "dave," so it should stay. 71.235.167.82 18:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

If 'Dave' is considered partly a Libby flashback, and I don't believe she even had a line, then surely 'Live Together, Die Alone' would have to be considered hers. With reports stating that her character's backstory will be told through other people's flashbacks, I think it would be fair to say she had a flashback episode through another character (eg. "Dave" (through Hurley), "Live Together.." (through Desmond)) However this form should be exclusive to Libby because of the way her backstory is being told. Mtowers 19:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

no no no i'm saying it actually IS her flashback: the flashback is occurring in her mind. but live together, die alone and ?, which both featured her, were NOT hers. Jwebby91 21:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Technically it's telling us where the episode centric, Hurley knows Libby from. I mean, she doesn't even have a speaking part Mtowers 23:00, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Does the community have an agreed-upon definition for the term "centric"? Boombot 00:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently not, as someone has just named "Live Together, Die Alone" as a Libby-centric episode too, even though she dies prior to this episode....I fail to see the logic of a deceased person having a flashback--Animé Dan 08:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Passenger status

I think it should be considered that Libby was not actually on the flight. I don't frequent any of the Lost message boards so forgive me if this has already been discussed somewhere, but consider these points:

In "Fire + Water", Libby asks for Hurley's opinion on a blouse:

Hurley: "Do I... know you from somewhere?"
Libby: "You mean other than the flight?"
Hurley: "Flight..." (trying to remember)
Libby: "Ok, turn around."
Hurley: "Huh?"
Libby: "Turn around; I want to try it on.  [Turn] around."
Hurley: "Oh...oh, sure, alright."
Libby: "No peeking!" (starts to change blouse)
Libby: "I cannot believe you don't remember stepping on my foot!"
Hurley: "I did?"
Libby: "Yes you did, and it was hard.  I know that because you...
 you were the last one on the flight and... you were all sweaty
 and you had headphones on and... crunch!  You stepped on my foot!"
Libby: "Ok, turn around."

In "Exodus (Part 3)", Hurley is seen running through the airport, boarding the plane, and taking his seat. He is never shown stepping on anyone's foot. Also consider that Hurley was the last one boarding the plane, was seated in the front half, and would not likely step on the foot of a tail-section passenger.

Although Jack says Ana-Lucia's surname at her funeral ("Three Minutes"), no one else seems to know the tail-section passengers' last names. In fact, Hurley-- previously in charge of accounting for names on the manifest-- did not say Libby's last name at her funeral. This suggests that the Tailies were not checked against the manifest.

The strongest indication that Libby was on the plane is in the episode "The Other 48 Days", in which she is shown crawling out of the water after the crash. She is shown bruised and wet (as Goodwin was not). However, given other suspicious facts about her, I would still not take this scene as conclusive proof that she was a passenger. We do know that The Others planted at least one spy in the tail-section group and that they make use of theatrical make-up. We also know that Libby has not had a flashback episode.

In "?", Libby is shown at the airport speaking to Eko and Charlotte. This would explain how she knows of Hurley's circumstances boarding the plane, but is still not conclusive proof of her passenger status.

One last, possibly-unrelated, but interesting clue regarding Libby's suspicious nature is that The Hanso Foundation website lists a "Liddy Wales" as one of the Board of Directors. This person is the only boardmember without a headshot.

Of course it's possible that I'm stretching just a bit too much, and that Libby was in fact on the flight. Taken separately, these bits of trivia do not seem significant, but taken together they should at least open the possibility that Libby was not on 815. Either way, I have a feeling we will all know after tonight's episode. --ACR

I hate to be a party-pooper, and all of this is fascinating speculation, but Wikipedia is simply not the place for it. These talk pages for articles are not there to theorize, they're there to discuss the articles specifically and how we can improve them. Let's keep the fan theories out of them. Thanks. -- PKtm 10:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, if this article isn't for theorizing, perhaps someone should correct the line "Libby was a tailsection passenger on Oceanic Airlines Flight 815." Perhaps you misunderstood the purpose of my post. I am not trying to get speculation included into the article; I am trying to get it removed. --ACR

She is considered, on the face of it, to be a tailsection survivor. That can't be considered speculation in the Lost universe as it stands today. Everything else is an elaborate theory with no confirmation. There's no reason to remove the obvious until there's something definitive that points to the facts as stated being incorrect. And again, Wikipedia is not the place to have a forum discussion on whether that's the case. Please see WP:V. A better place to pursue discussing the theory would be Lostpedia. -- PKtm 16:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

On a related topic, it is safe to say from "Dave" that the reliability of Hurley's memories can be safely considered "questionable" or "suspect" because Hugo remembered Dave, who doesn't exist. Although it is certainly possible Hugo knew Libby prior to the Island, the show itself has called into question the accuracy of Hugo's memories, so it is not really just "fan theory" to mention that her appearance in Hugo's flashback may or may not reflect reality. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.179.163.145 (talk • contribs) 24 May 2006.

Yes, with all due respect, in fact it is "just" theory, and is not suited to Wikipedia. Please see WP:OR. Mentioning that is speculation and interpretation. Wikipedia needs to present facts. She appears in the flashback, pure and simple. H ow to interpret that (as reality or not) needs to be left up to the reader. -- PKtm 06:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, I doubt your ability to discern theory from fact if you insist on counting "Libby was a tailsection passenger on Oceanic Airlines Flight 815." as verifiable fact. Where is your original research or episode reference? Does Wikipedia have a policy page on selective fact-checking? --ACR —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.168.253.166 (talk • contribs) 10:07, May 25, 2006 (UTC)

We've got as much evidence that Libby was on the plane as we do that Eko was: they were both seen in the airport in Eko's flashback in "?", and were both seen coming out of the water in "The Other 48 Days". I suppose that given the nature of Lost it's possible that they got from one to the other without actually being on the plane, but I think we need to go with Occam's razor here — otherwise, we'll have to start putting disclaimers with every sentence about anything Lost-related. The simplest and most likely explanation is that Libby was in the tail section of the plane, as the other characters on the program believed. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concern, but was Occam's Razor considered when the "purported" disclaimer was added to Libby's profession text? Where is the consistency, and if there is none, who decides where the line is drawn? --ACR —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.168.253.166 (talk • contribs) 12:30, May 25, 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who put "(purported)" next to Libby's profession, but I assume they were thinking that given her appearance as a mental patient in "Dave", the possibility that she was lying when she said she was a psychologist should be considered. I think that doubting her profession is a bit more reasonable than doubting that she was on the plane; however, we can consider dropping the "(purported)", since plenty of psychiatric practicioners have also been psychiatric patients.

Well, while it's OR, my theory is that - with Libby's hair changing from brown to ginger to blonde (very ALIAS), her giving Desmond the boat and other things, that she was there specifically to get certain people onto the island. She's still going to be on the show, we'll just have to figure her out through flashbacks. ~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 16:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, you can sign your posts with an automatic timestamp by typing four tildes, like so: ~~~~. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

The biography section needs references. It wouldn't take much - the official site character profile is suitable for one. Any articles from reputable publications that mention the characters story arc could also be used.--Opark 77 15:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

No citations are necessary in this case because all of the information in the biography comes straight from the show. Jtrost (^T | C | _#) 16:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Then we should cite the show directly, see List of characters from The Wire for examples of how to cite specific episodes. Nothing on wikipedia should be unsourced, see WP:CITE.--Opark 77 11:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

"Elizabeth is supposed to have been named after Libby, so it is possible that Libby is a false name." Isn't Libby a nickname for Elizabeth? A nickname isn't a "false name" 71.235.38.144 15:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, to the person who stated her surname as "Franklin", I'm aware of the website that portrayed that, but that website has many flaws, such as the seating arrangement and the names of half the passengers. So, please don't post false information unless proven otherwise--Animé Dan 17:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-Protect

What brought on the semi-protection of this page? - Boombot 01:50, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up needed

I went through the article to make it read more smoothly, and I took out some irrelevant details, like some lines about the Tailies that didn't actually involve Libby. The "On the Island" section still includes a number of details that just seem way too specific. Ana-Lucia's suspicion of Goodwin isn't really relevant to Libby. Also, there are no episodes cited. I'd change everything myself, but I don't like to step on anyone's toes. --Pooneil 05:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, can you try and do that again without using the word 'however' thirty-seven zillion times?75.28.41.156 20:25, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Libbylost.PNG

Image:Libbylost.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 17:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Libbyshot.jpg

Image:Libbyshot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 17:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Libbylost.PNG

Image:Libbylost.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 06:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

Hello. I'll be doing the GA review for this article. I don't have much time at the moment to read through the article, but after scanning, there are some things which I think should be fixed:

• I noticed at least two instances where the in-line citations were not in numerical order.
• A lot of the references are lacking authors, dates, publishers, etc. See Template:cite web for the full list of info needed for each citation.

I'll be back tomorrow with the full review. Nikki311 07:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Here are some more specific suggestions:

• "...due to a traffic violation by her actress." --> "...due to a traffic violation by the actress that plays her."
• "though it should be noted that a flashback at the end..." (obviously it should be noted or you wouldn't have) --> "though a flashback at the end..."
• "She is suppose to have returned during Season 3..." --> "She was supposed to return during Season 3..."
• "though the accuracy of these statements is debatable." - really? how so? If you are indicating that it is because of the reasons in the next paragraph, then maybe the two should be combined to make that more clear.
• "Unfortunately" - POV
• "one of them" --> an Other
• Other is linked a couple of times in the Story section. Only the first mention needs to be linked.
• "Libby's group soon decide" --> "Libby's group soon decides" (there may be more than one person, but it is only one group)
• Don't use the word "would" before a verb. It makes for a very boring read and isn't active enough.
• Combine the three paragraphs involving Hurley into one since they deal with the same subject.
• "Hurley's almost girlfriend" - there's got to be a better way to word that
• "Her most notable incident involving this virtue was when she assisted Hurley in resolving his mental problems." --> "One example of her exhibiting this virtue is when she assisted Hurley in resolving his mental problems."
• "Characters have often described her as a "shrink" or as a "mega cute blonde chick" probably due to her profession and appearance." (isn't it exactly because of these reasons?) --> "Characters have often described her as a "shrink" or as a "mega cute blonde chick" due to her profession and appearance."
• "isn't" --> is not (spell out all contractions unless they are in a quote)
• "Originally, Libby is not going to be killed off, but Ana Lucia Cortez is considered an unpopular character and her death would not generate enough sympathy from fans, so Libby, who is well liked, is also killed for emotional impact." - because this is describing what was supposed to happen, I believe it should be in past tense. It isn't describing what actually happened in the literature
• The canonicity of this scene is unclear. - how so? the writers/directors/actors haven't commented on it?
• Entertainment Weekly, Variety, and any other magazines should be in italic.
• In general, IMDB and TV.com shouldn't be used as sources. Can these be replaced?
• The text alternated between present and past tense in the Story section. If you can fix everything else, I don't mind fixing this myself before promoting the article.

I think that's it! I'll put the article on hold for one week for improvements. After the week is up, I'll fail or pass the article. Thanks and good luck! Nikki311 22:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed the points raised. Anything else? Corn.u.co.pia ♥ Disc.us.sion 07:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I gave the article a really good copy edit to fix the verb tense problem and a few other minor issues. Other than that, the pics are good, the sourcing is good, and every aspect of the character is covered. Great job! I've passed the article. Nikki311 03:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

HEy, thanks for your help!23prootie (talk) 10:39, 30 May 2008 (UTC)