Talk:LGBT stereotypes
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This article was nominated for deletion on 12-15-06. The result of the discussion was keep. |
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[edit] old comment
This is a rather shitty article, if I may be so bold. I think we need to heavily revise it. 129.59.99.211 04:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tagged.
I have tagged this article because it does not cite sources, seems incredibly POV and a few points made seem to be wholly subjective to interpretation. ExRat 18:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merits of this article
I have grave reservations about the purpose served by the article. There are no articles of Wikipedia about:
- black stereotyping
- jewish stereotyping
- stereotypes of women etc.
Why is it that a specific article is needed to cover gay stereotyping? Is there any good reason why this article should not be deleted or merged into a section at the Homophobia article? - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 19:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- It might be better merged into stereotype - gay stereotyping is not necessarily homophobic. Barnabypage 21:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- Really? Would people say black stereotyping isn't necessarily racist? - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 23:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- Would you say that a gay man who dressing, talks, and acts in a stereotypical manner is a homophobe? Koweja 00:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- No. That's a basic element of personal freedom. Would I think that someone who labels someone as gay because they dress, talk and acts in a manner associated to a gay stereotype is a homophobe? Probably yes. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 00:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- What if they do it because they feel that's what they need to do to "be gay". People's self image can be influenced by the stereotypes of others to the point where they adopt them. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone that acts in the stereotypical manner. Another example of stereotyping and bigotry/phobia not being the same thing: take white people who act like stereotypical black gangsters. Obviously they believe the stereotype, but they certainly don't hate or fear blacks. Granted, this is probably a bad example since you're not an American, but that's all I've got. Koweja 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK- I'm starting to see where you coming from. I would have thought all one had to do to be gay was be attracted to people of the same gender, but I do see your point. To me it seems like giving in to the prejudice, but I may be taking too narrow a view and be guilty of my own POV bias. In any event, since you pointed me in the direction of Stereotypes of Africans/Blacks and seeing that it is unlikely to get a concensus to delete in its AfD, I think I've already lost this argument. The least one can do is work on this article- distinguish between stereotyping as hostile/prejudice labeling and what role it may have in self-identity, for one thing. It's going to be a big project to get this article up to standard. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 00:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, "a lot of work" doesn't even begin to describe what it'll take to make this a good article, but I can see it happening. I've nominated this to be a LGBT Project collaboration, there is a chance. Koweja 00:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Okay - does anyone know of any serious academic work on this topic as a starting point? Amazon only comes up with one result for "gay stereotype" and that's "Gender Nonconformity, Race, and Sexuality: Charting the Connections", which doesn't look quite the right thing - there are lots of general works on gay history, of course, but can anyone recommend a relevant one? WJBscribe - I agree stereotyping is often homophobic, but stereotypes can also be referred to in jest by non-homophobes, and indeed by gay men themselves. IMHO merging this into homophobia would extend the definition of the latter excessively. Barnabypage 15:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, "a lot of work" doesn't even begin to describe what it'll take to make this a good article, but I can see it happening. I've nominated this to be a LGBT Project collaboration, there is a chance. Koweja 00:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- OK- I'm starting to see where you coming from. I would have thought all one had to do to be gay was be attracted to people of the same gender, but I do see your point. To me it seems like giving in to the prejudice, but I may be taking too narrow a view and be guilty of my own POV bias. In any event, since you pointed me in the direction of Stereotypes of Africans/Blacks and seeing that it is unlikely to get a concensus to delete in its AfD, I think I've already lost this argument. The least one can do is work on this article- distinguish between stereotyping as hostile/prejudice labeling and what role it may have in self-identity, for one thing. It's going to be a big project to get this article up to standard. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 00:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- What if they do it because they feel that's what they need to do to "be gay". People's self image can be influenced by the stereotypes of others to the point where they adopt them. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone that acts in the stereotypical manner. Another example of stereotyping and bigotry/phobia not being the same thing: take white people who act like stereotypical black gangsters. Obviously they believe the stereotype, but they certainly don't hate or fear blacks. Granted, this is probably a bad example since you're not an American, but that's all I've got. Koweja 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- No. That's a basic element of personal freedom. Would I think that someone who labels someone as gay because they dress, talk and acts in a manner associated to a gay stereotype is a homophobe? Probably yes. - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 00:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Would you say that a gay man who dressing, talks, and acts in a stereotypical manner is a homophobe? Koweja 00:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- Really? Would people say black stereotyping isn't necessarily racist? - WJBscribe (WJB talk) 23:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Name that article
The first thing that needs to be done is to figure out a name of the article. Firstly, I would recomend Stereotypes of ______ rather than _______ stereotyping just because it looks better and is less vague. Secondly, we need to decide on which group that is being stereotyped should this article address. As it stands it can only be about homosexual men, however if we rename it to Stereotypes of homosexuals we can include stereotypes of lesbians. We could expand it even further to include bisexuals, asexuals, pansexuals, and so forth. However, there really doesn't seem to be as much stereotyping of these groups homosexuals, so I would be okay with limiting the focus to homosexuals.
Summary: we should rename the article to Stereotypes of homosexuals. Koweja 02:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- I nominate Stereotypes of LGBT people or Sexuality-based stereotypes because it broadens the topic and these stereotypes are often lumped together by the stereotypers. --Tiger MarcROAR! 21:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- I do like Sexuality-based stereotypes. Koweja 21:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Me too. I think it would widen the article, and that it can be included in all of the templates. -Bopopop loves Eurobeat 23:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)Miso
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- Agree - Sexuality-based stereotypes -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
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Ok, it's been moved (obviously :) ). Koweja 20:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Re:rename
I seem to have missed the boat on this discussion. Just wanted to check, the rename seems to require Stereotypes of heterosexuals (and potentially also for paedophiles, zoosexuals etc.) to also be included in this article. Was this intentional/practical? WJBscribe (WJB talk) 02:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that the title of Stereotypes of LGBT people proposed above would make the page more manageable... WJBscribe (WJB talk) 02:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I seem to have jumped the gun on the move - sorry about that, but we can always move it again. It wasn't intentional to make it so broad. However, it might be useful to include stereotypes of heterosexuals since they are often the foundation for stereotypes of LGBTs (gays are stereotyped as acting like a woman, lesbians are stereotyped as acting like a man). Koweja 03:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- Mmm- isn't that gender stereotypes rather than heterosexual ones technically? Not sure of a title that would include heterosexuals but leave out the other sexualities I mentioned... WJBscribe (WJB talk) 03:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- If this weren't a part of the Queer Studies portal, I would be in complete support of making this article so broad as to include all sexualities. However, since it is part of the portal, I am in support of the name change. Jellocube27 21:05, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I seem to have jumped the gun on the move - sorry about that, but we can always move it again. It wasn't intentional to make it so broad. However, it might be useful to include stereotypes of heterosexuals since they are often the foundation for stereotypes of LGBTs (gays are stereotyped as acting like a woman, lesbians are stereotyped as acting like a man). Koweja 03:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
How about calling it LGBT stereotypes? That seems to reflect the current scope. In addition, sexuality is not the equivalent to sexual orientation. (See Sexuality and Human sexuality: Sexuality refers to sexual behavior in all sexual organisms. -Emiellaiendiay 20:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Academic foundation
Any ideas for where we can find reliable academic sources that discuss sexuality-based stereotypes and their validity? WJBscribe (WJB talk) 02:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can find. One of the joys of working for a private college is a free access to lots and lots of subscription research databases. If you don't have access to subscription stuff, I would start with Google Scholar. If you have any kind of decently funded academic institution that you can get to, try their library. Koweja 03:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Stereotypes of perceived sexuality
We should probably discuss stereotypes of perceived sexuality as well as thse based upon actual sexuality - e.g. assuming an effeminate man is gay, when he may in fact be straight (or bisexual, or actually gay). Aleta 02:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- True, we should also integrate metrosexuality into the article. It is often perceived as acting like a gay man. Koweja 03:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't you guys think that gay/lesbian stereotypes are true for the most part? I mean, most gay men I've met are quite noticeable. The voice Gay Voice, the eye and hand movements are all too cliche in the "ladies/men?" I've met. I'm a masculine gay man and really annoyed by them for being lumped with THEM. It annoys most when I say "If I wanted someone feminine, I'd go with a woman." It's tue, why would I go with a femmie if women do a better job at it? [confidential] 09:28, 31 December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Megamanaxl (talk • contribs)
[edit] A plan?
I was thinking that the next step would be to split up each section into dress, mannerisms, speech... Something like that. Also, to make this "lgbT", what are some trans stereotypes? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- I am opposed to the idea of categorising stereotypes in that manner, but I see where you are coming from. It is easier to lump together facts (which we do not have in this article) based on sexuality, at least until we have a wealth of (accurate) information. Jellocube27 20:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- We need to rewrite the lead paragraph as the article topic as defined by the title is much broader than those about homosexuals. (We have already a section about bisexuals - not included in the terminology of the lead paragraph.) Aleta 05:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think it would be a good idea to include a discussion of the origins of sexuality-based stereotypes (e.g. homophobia), their historical use and their consequences and effects. There is plenty of scholarship on these topics. Burnley 18:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Currently the "Transgendered men & women" section is blank. I'd add the stereoype that all transgendered people become prostitutes, but I have no sources to back that up. - Emiellaiendiay 20:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
- I found a source online for the prostitution view and have begun expanding the Transgendered stub. I began it with a very general definition of the term because it covers such broad territory.Parammon 19:50, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Currently the "Transgendered men & women" section is blank. I'd add the stereoype that all transgendered people become prostitutes, but I have no sources to back that up. - Emiellaiendiay 20:50, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Are we collaborating?
If this is the collaboration of the month, shouldn't we all (myself included) be doing more? It's not getting much attention, folks. Aleta 01:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- We should. I'll try to add something along the lines of my suggestion above, within the next day or two. Burnley 04:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
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- I'm working on this. Adding some citations where I can and trying to rewrite portions, where appropriate. Feedback is appreciated. Parammon 16:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Parammon, YOU ROCK!! I think this article is actually starting to shape up!! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is indeed. Now we have a better idea of this article's scope, is there general support for renaming it LGBT stereotypes? WJBscribe 14:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. I think we have to rename it unless we include a section about straight stereotypes.Parammon 17:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm okay with renaming. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- As you can see, I've been bold and moved the page. I've removed the double redirects that resulted. It can easily be undone if there are objections. WJBscribe 20:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Go you! Parammon 20:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's been changed — yay! (No objections from me.) -Emiellaiendiay 03:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- Go you! Parammon 20:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- As you can see, I've been bold and moved the page. I've removed the double redirects that resulted. It can easily be undone if there are objections. WJBscribe 20:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm okay with renaming. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. I think we have to rename it unless we include a section about straight stereotypes.Parammon 17:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- It is indeed. Now we have a better idea of this article's scope, is there general support for renaming it LGBT stereotypes? WJBscribe 14:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- Parammon, YOU ROCK!! I think this article is actually starting to shape up!! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Straight Stereotypes
Not to go back on what we said, but if we do add a straight stereotype, can we use this image? :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Is that a straight stereotype? It looks kinda homoerotic to me... WJBscribe 02:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm... Or is that Mmmmm... :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Looks homoerotic to me also. I ain't saying I find the picture attractive, but seems as though it's aimed for gay / bi men. LuciferMorgan 04:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I think it's homoerotic as well. Maybe we can use it on the Homomasculinity page. That needs work too. Parammon 07:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Looks homoerotic to me also. I ain't saying I find the picture attractive, but seems as though it's aimed for gay / bi men. LuciferMorgan 04:10, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm... Or is that Mmmmm... :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
it would prob be that they(well 4 men): -drink beer
-watch football
-beat there wives
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Spain396 (talk • contribs) 01:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Good job!
I have to say, this article is shaping up nicely. I am in awe of the mass of citations. Excellent work!! -Emiellaiendiay 03:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Doesn't Make Sense
How does marketing towards homosexuals through homo erotic imagery mean that a company is supporting a stereotype?
How is "everyone is a bisexual" a stereotype? Isn't that instead a point of view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SykoSilver (talk • contribs) 22:04, 2007 3 August 3 (UTC)
