Talk:LGBT characters in comics

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[edit] Transgendered Section

The trangendered section seems out of place, with no actual examples of the traditional definition found at transgender:

"People who were assigned a gender, usually at birth and based on their genitals, 
but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves." 
Another one is: 
"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the gender one was assigned at birth."

Most of the examples given are either sex/gender-shifting (as a form of shapeshifting) or crossdressing, which, at least in my mindset, are two completely different aspects. 惑乱 分からん 14:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I'm not sure why this article wasn't just a series of positive changes to the "List" article. The two are both lists that cover essentially the same info, but the one is just more detailed. I don't think we need both. --Chris Griswold 13:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The scope of the articles are different, though. This is a descriptive article, the other a list. 惑乱 分からん 09:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Merge - There is little difference in the scope of these; one id just more descriptive than the other but is still a list.--Chris Griswold 19:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Speedy Merge - They're both 'lists', but List of gay, lesbian or bisexual comics characters is more complete. I'm pulling over anything from this page that's missing on that one, and I vote for going with List of gay, lesbian or bisexual comics characters as the format. done, there were only 2 -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 15:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Closed with CONSENSUS TO MERGE CovenantD 16:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe merge

This is a more detailed and descriptive article than the other one; if anything, the other (or parts of it) should be merged with this article. Maybe merging is not the answer, though. Maybe each article should continue to stand alone. It seems there's too much merging going on in Wikipedia.

[edit] Citations?

Are there any sources for these? (Especially the ones whose names appear unlinked.) 65.115.38.32 15:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Unreferenced characters

We need to add citations to the characters on the list. Do not add a new character to the list without citing the mention of LGBT. --Chris Griswold 23:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amazon image

The sample image of "An Amazon of Themyscira" is a cover of Artemis from the Requiem mini. This seems inappropriate. The main problem is that Artemis is straight, not gay. To my knowledge, she's never been portrayed as attracted to women. Also, Artemis is part of the Bana-Mighdall tribe. Although the Bana-Mighdall have reluctantly emigrated to Themiscyra, they are usually contrasted with the "Themysciran Amazons." Most importantly, Artemis is only twenty years old, not 2,500 years old, like the immortal Themyscirans. The Bana-Mighdall line continued because of reproduction; theirs is a heterosexual culture, unlike the Themyscirans' predominantly lesbian culture. Sorry to be a nitpicky fanboy, but this is like having an article that mentions that many figure skaters are gay, and then illustrates that statement with a picture of Wayne Gretzky. Peirigill 19:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Wait: Wayne Gretzky's gay? --Chris Griswold 19:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Wait...since when have the Amazons been gay? I thought it was just there society.--Mullon 04:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Perez established that many but not all Themysciran Amazons were lesbian. Jimenez and Rucka reinforced this. Several Amazons have been explicitly identified as coupled, including Anaya and Iphthime. Others, like Io, definitely appear to be attracted to women, but this hasn't been stated outright. Back when the list of LGBT characters was a separate page, someone wanted to list Diana (Wonder Woman) as bisexual based on her portrayal by Rucka, and the consensus was not to list Diana but to list "various Amazons of Themyscira" based on Perez, Jimenez, and Rucka's runs. Peirigill 02:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

Explaining the tag: This article needs some general copy editing, and the references need to be formatted to fit Wikipedia style. In just glance, I found several quotation mark errors and un-capitalized words at the beginning of sentences. --Chris Griswold 05:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This article needs a lot of work to become comprehensive. The prominent emphasis on Marvel characters (Northstar and the Rawhide Kid) borders on POV. Where's the commentary on early, controversial, or prominent LGBT characters from DC like Extraño, Wanda Mann, Terry Berg, Renee Montoya, and Kate Kane? Much of the article focuses on temporary, one-shot transformations of characters from one gender to another. This isn't comprehensive (for example, there's no mention of Superman encountering a gender-reversed Justice League), and while technically these are cases of transgendering, they are not truly examples of transgendered characters — no more so than the fact that many superheroes have been turned into apes at one time or another means they belong on a list of animal or animal-themed superheroes. The history is seriously lacking; not one mention of Wertham's accusations that Batman, Robin, and Wonder Woman were homosexual? Can we get some better citations for public response and perceptions? What about how gay characters fit into the larger context of comics increasing the overall diversity of their publications? What about comic book stories that address gay themes indirectly, using non-gay characters? I know, I know... if I don't like the article, I should fix it. I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, I wanted to add my concerns to Chris' cleanup tag, in the hope that anyone who is actively working on this article might take them into account. Peirigill 07:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. --Chris Griswold 08:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Not to mention Pied Piper, who came out, if I recall the timing right, BEFORE Northstar. And not that I have anything against Transgered people, or think they don't deserve a share of this article, but it seems unbalanced to A) have so little text talking about gay characters and so much devoted to transgendered and B) to have most of the transgender bits focus on transformations that weren't permanent. Maybe some more focus on gay characters, especially now that they're really making an apperance (including in books marketed towards children (Young Avengers & Runaways))..like Freedom Ring, Scandal, Knockout (or is she bi?), Hulkling, Wiccan, Xavin (if being a Skrull counts..now there's something for transgender/no gender), Karolina, etc. 71.197.161.86 15:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Since when has Black Cat been bisexual?--Mullon 04:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Alternate reality, openly bi. Earth-616 allegedly bi, quote: "It's been so long since I've had a boyfriend... or a girlfriend". Not sure about the particular issue. 惑乱 分からん 22:54, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transgendered section (further ponderings)

I think the transgendered section seems out of place, here. I wonder if I'm alone in my opinion, but in my worldview, TG refers to real-life examples of (primarily) being born one gender, feeling you should be born as another, not to completely switch between each other genders as will. I'm aware that gender-shifting is an old mythological concept found in many cultures worldwide, and I think it is an interesting phenomena to warrant its own article, though, but should not be mixed up, merged or confused with transgender issues. It is rather some form of shapeshifting or transformation fetish. Also, as it stands now, I wonder how the authors could have missed the manga series Ranma 1/2 and Futaba-Kun Change!. The Jimmy Olsen section seems even further misplaced, it doesn't seem like Jimmy Olsen is crossdressing of some sort of sexual curiosity (or perhaps that could be argued...) 惑乱 分からん 11:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

See my comments just above, in the "Cleanup" section. I'm loath to start mandating what counts as "transgender" and what doesn't, so I wouldn't eliminate the information about temporary gender switches, but I'd treat it as a less important aspect of transgendering in comics and significantly reduce the section, maybe use summary style to link to an article dedicated to gender swtiches in comics. The primary discussion of transgendered characters should be those characters who identify as transgender or who undergo a significant, lasting, or repeated alteration of gender. Peirigill 18:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, transgender seems to be a vague definition, with the Wikipedia article even mentioning cross-dressing. Repeated alteration (male-female and back again) fits Ranma 1/2 and Futaba-Kun Change! anyway. There seems to be few examples of what I'd consider true transsexuality in comics (such as the movie Transamerica), even outside the American mainstream. I think the gender-shifting section is interesting, but it might possibly fit better in another article. 惑乱 分からん 21:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this. There is a difference between depicting a character as being transgendered in the sense that real people are transgendered and depicting them as being suddenly reversed in sex.--Chris Griswold(☏) 01:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree also; that section dismayed the hell out of me, as it occupies a majority of the article now and seems mostly to refer to established heroes who were briefly switched or appeared as the other gender in an alternate universe or something like that. I'm going to get flamed for this, but I'd actually call it transcruft. As per the OP, none of this is actually what TG is generally accepted to be. I'd agree with Peirigill that permanency is required at the *least*. Suntiger 10:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. The bits about regular characters growing breats for an issue should be shrunken and moved lower in the article.--Chris Griswold (☎☓) 10:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed restructuring of article

Just some preliminary thoughts... what you you all think of this outline as a template for revising this article?

  1. Lede and TOC
  2. Scope of article
    1. Who:"Transgender themes, in the broadest sense, have been present in modern comics since their earliest days in the late 19th century, every time comedy or drama ensued from breaking established gender roles. Characters whose sexual or gender identities break heterosexual or gender norms have been less common. These include characters identifiable as LGBT, whether gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transsexual, or even simply expressing same-sex attractions or defying simple gender assignment."
    2. When:"Although the history of comics arguably goes back to Rodolphe Toepffer's "picture-stories" in the 1830s and even further to medieval European tapestries, illustrated pre-Columbian Mexican chronicles, and beyond, modern comics began in the 1890's with [quick summary goes here]. This article deals with LGBT characters in modern comics."
  3. History
    1. 1930s and 1940s: Early gay-themed comics
      1. WWII (pre-war Berlin Schwuler comics, Tom of Finland, etc.)
    2. 1950s and 1960s: Underground comix (Harold Hedd, etc.)
    3. 1970s: Development of an artistic community (Gay Comix/Gay Comics, Dykes to Watch Out For, etc.)
    4. 1980-1995: Emergence into mainstream comics (Extraño, Northstar, Gaiman's Sandman series, etc.)
    5. 1995-2005
      1. AIDS and the Gay Rights movement (HIV in Global Guardians, Alpha Flight, Hulk, etc.; Judd Winick and Pedro and Me; also, anti-gay comics like Chick)
      2. Proactive diversity from major publishers
      3. Manga and yaoi
      4. Notable works and events (Stuck Rubber Baby, Rawhide Kid mini, Pedro and Me, Josiah Power as gay "title character" of Power Company, etc.)
    6. 2006-present (recent developments: Holly Robison as Catwoman, Renee Montoya as lead character in Gotham Central and 52, etc.)
      1. Webcomics
  4. Public response
    1. Wertham and the Comics Code Authority (Batman and Robin, Wonder Woman, etc.)
    2. Backlash (concerns about morality (especially in a medium perceived as geared towards children), de-gaying characters (Gen-13), reader complaints of writers pushing their social agendas (Winick), oversized "Mature readers" label (Rawhide Kid))
    3. Awards (GLAAD awards, etc.)
    4. Panels of gay writers/artists at comicons
  5. Literary and artistic techniques
    1. Genres (Coming-out stories, biography, serial drama, homoerotica, etc.)
    2. "Closeting" techniques (Northstar as "fairy," kisses shown only in silhouette (Catwoman, Starman), gay characters never touching other characters (Pulp Annual of Flash), gay characters whose partners are kept off-panel (Maggie Sawyer, Piper), omission of the "g"-word (Power Company), etc.)
    3. Breaking out of the closet (cinematic kissing scenes, activist characters (Piper and Terry Berg), etc.)
  6. Related same-sex and transgressive themes in comics
    1. Gender-switching as a plot device/tool for exploring characterization
    2. False homoeroticism (Arsenal and Nightwing jokingly called "boyfriends" in Outsiders, attractions misinterpreted as same-sex in Ranma 1/2, etc.)
    3. LGBT themes addressed allegorically through non-LGBT characters
    4. Fanzine and fanfic (slash)
  7. List of LGBT characters in comics

This is totally off the top of my head. Any suggestions for reorganizing or expanding this? Peirigill 06:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yaoi is much older than the 90's, I think, only that it was barely known outside East Asia by the time. Possibly the list and article is too US-centric, btw. Japan, Europe, Australia (Latin America? Africa?) is largely forgotten. 惑乱 分からん 09:36, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't know enough about yaoi to do more than include it somewhere. How should these non-Americentric topics be covered? I was thinking chronologically made the most sense, but it seems likely that you'd need to talk about the main three areas of comics (the US and Canada, Western Europe, and Japan) separately because of the different styles and/or public responses. (The pro-censorship forces that led to the American Comics Code Authority, are, IIRC, a uniquely American phenomenon. Peirigill 00:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
You're probably right. In Europe there were old moral codes, but AFAIK no officially sanctioned standard. 惑乱 分からん 06:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
My knowledge is Americentric, so please help me fill this in! In Japan, I know about yaoi and bishonen, and I seem to recall that there's a lesbian counterpart to yaoi. I read Ranma 1/2, but I'm not familiar with Futaba-Kun Change!. What else is there to cover? I know that some Japanese comics are distributed as parts of large anthologies, which allow readers and writers to experiment with a greater diversity of genres. Is that relevant here? Does that create a context where comics with gay-related themes are more readily available, or does the fact that children might be reading limit what writers will include? Or does Japan just not get upset about gays the way the US does? Peirigill 00:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, most anthologies tend to be aimed at a particular demographic target audience, that is pre-school kids, girls between 8-13, males between 18-30 etc. thus there appears to be little concern that children might be reading material which is not suitable for them. Also, generally mainstream comics do allow much more of graphic sexuality and graphic violence etc. than in USA. Japan, and particularly the Japanese pop culture, does seem to have different conceptions of homosexuality than USA. 惑乱 分からん 06:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
As for Europe, I did include the pre-WWII Berliner comics and Tom of Finland. I can add Vellekoop to the erotica section. What else is there for Europe?
Ralf König is a popular German cartoonist. Also, Europe has had more alternative comics inspired by the american underground. I'll see what else I could find of remarkable material. 惑乱 分からん 06:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The anthology Dyke Strippers includes lesbian (and female bisexual) cartoonists from around the world, including New Zealand and Australia. I had intended to talk about that in the "Development of an artistic community" section. Any suggestions for male cartoonists?~
The american anthology Gay Comix is not only for male cartoonists, but they have been produced semi-regularly since the 80's. 惑乱 分からん 06:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm thinking we could mention how other areas, like Africa and the Middle East, have few or no LGBT characters because of the cultural backdrop (assuming that they don't, in fact, have many gay characters). Peirigill 00:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Possibly. The comic cultures here also seem quite underdeveloped. 惑乱 分からん 06:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, maybe the transgendered section should be restructured, too, with more direct, realistic examples of transsexualism on top (Actually, I have trouble finding more characters than Lord Fanny) and perhaps further down, renaming the rest of the section to "Other ambiguate depictions of gender" which would include the current gender-shifting and cross-dressing section. This way, we could include the classic Krazy Kat, whose main character seemingly was in a perpetual state of gender flux, depending on which story George Herriman wanted to tell (I remember an interesting Sunday page in which Ignatz got jealous because he erroneously believed Krazy had a date with a girlfriend. Ignatz is afaik always described as male) 惑乱 分からん 11:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I've already done that, by creating a separate "Gender-switching as a plot device/tool for exploring characterization" subsection in a separate "Related same-sex and transgressive themes in comics" section that goes at the end of the article. I'd prefer rewriting the article so that there is no longer a separate "transsexual" section, as in my proposed outline above. I'd rather mention transgendered (and specifically, transsexual) characters alongside the LGB characters as they come up in the history and public response sections. Trying to compartmentalize transgender will mean separate sections for gay characters, lesbian characters, and bisexual characters, and that approach seems problematic. It's not necessary, it will be hard to neatly categorize people (as we've seen from the List of LGBT characters), and it doesn't seem to add much compared to the approach of just bringing characters up as they come up.
Just to be clear: I want to overhaul this article top to bottom, to address the concerns that ChrisGriswold and I were discussing above. That's why I could really use everyone's help in agreeing on the outline, and making sure that the outline is comprehensive, NPOV, global, perspicuous, etc., before making any significant changes. Peirigill 18:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
"Transgender" seems a vague concept, but I'd say it is different enough from LGB (mainly sexual and romantic attraction), instead being about personal gender identity, to warrant its own section and having LGB bulked together, partly because the distinction between homo and bi isn't always that clear-cut... Ah, created, you're talking about the outline you drafted. Maybe your proposals are too specific, if it's vaguer, it could be more diversified in the inclusion of examples. Anyway, if it's a draft, of course it could still be worked on, and I could have read it through more carefully first. 惑乱 分からん 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
(decreasing indent for legibility) Maybe I should clarify: in my outline above, typical examples are given in parentheses, just to give you an idea of what kinds of characters and works would be covered in each section. It's not exhaustive by any means.
Although the concepts of sexual orientation and gender identity are different, this is an article about characters, not concepts. There's no significant difference between Neil Gaiman's decisions to introduce gay male characters (Alex Burgess), bisexual male characters (Paul McGuire), lesbian characters (Foxglove), bisexual female characters (Hazel), transsexual characters (Wanda Mann), and polygendered characters (Desire). Separating Shvaughn Erin's transsexualism and Element Lad's presumed homosexuality is especially unhelpful, because the two topics are intimately connected in the same storyline.
If transgendered characters really deserve a separate treatment from same-sex characters, we should seriously consider making this page Gay characters in comics and give Transgendered characters in comics its own page. That doesn't feel right to me, and I don't recommend it. I'm not absolutely opposed to a separate section for transsexual characters, but I don't think it's needed or helpful. Could you draft an alternate outline, either based on mine or totally new, that shows how you would organize the topic? Peirigill 21:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Webcomics

Should there be a seperate list for webcomics? The internet is a lot more free of censorship than mainstream comic books, and the inclusion of such characters seems to be going against the general tone of the article as set in Public Reaction, which specifies publishers. --OGoncho 19:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Webcomics should be separate. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 01:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Censorship depends on what country and comics culture you are talking about. The comics should be somewhat "notable" though, having gained a significant following. However, it should be marked in the list whether the comic is a webcomic or not. (By the way, I really should start discussing that restructural with Peirigill again soon.) 惑乱 分からん 20:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Both The Gaming Guardians and Guardians are notable for having prominant gay superhero characters, especially Radical's brother (who'se name eludes me) and Brahma. If we're going to include Webcomics in superhero comics articles, these should definitely be included. And let me also state that I'm definitely for including notable webcomics in other comic articles, where appropriate. Just because a comic is primarily available on the web doesn't make it invalid.--Pyritefoolsgold 12:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not any less valid, but it is a different medium. A separate article should be created, since the name of this one is comic book characters. CovenantD 12:05, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What makes a webcomic invalid is lack of readership. Just like a blog or poet's chapbook. Anyone can make one; doesn't mean it's affecting anyone's life. Notability must be proven for these things to eb taken seriously and not be regarded simply as plugs. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 15:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
CovenantD hits the nail on the head - this is "LGBT comic book characters". I don't think anyone would have any problems with LGBT webcomic characters and adding a link in via See also. (Emperor 15:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC))

In response to ChrisGrisWold, I see what you mean, at least as far as major articles like this one are concerned, but the Gaming Guardians is one of the most notable webcomics out there. Another quetion: what happens if Gaming Guardians publishes a book featuring the timeline in which Brahma has been featured (Not unlikely, and it may have already happened) Should that then be included in this article, or is it still a "webcomic?"--Pyritefoolsgold 04:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd say you could include it in both. (Emperor 05:08, 26 November 2006 (UTC))
Still think it's an unnecessary distinction. If the webcomic has a notable readership, or is very popular among a sub-culture (such as furry fandom) they should still belong. Some small info about the character/comic could be given here, though. I'd rather have the article moved to a new title than start a new article. 惑乱 分からん 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
But it isn't about notability or popularity the objection is that it is a different medium (as the distinction between comic books and comic strips is a well-defined despite them both using sequential art to tell a story, e.g.: List of films based on American comic books and List of films based on comic strips then I can't see the problem with webcomics being seen as another medium which probably has more in common with the latter. See the section Forms within comics). This article as it stands seems well-defined and a good size and I'd not support moving it to a more general entry and really don't see the problem with LGBT webcomic characters. (Emperor 15:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC))
I don't think that the medium is distinct enough to warrant another list. In that case, there surely would be a vote on a merge soon, anyway... 惑乱 分からん 22:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Well start the list and see if anyone proposes a merge. I know I'd vote against a merge as I suspect would a number of other people here. If comic strips and comic books are distinct enough to get two lists in the examples I give then I can't see there being a big issue with them being separate here. As I say this isn't about notability and it isn't being webcomicist (I have one of my own) its just a distinct form of sequential art. (Emperor 23:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC))
I'd still warrant it isn't distinct enough, all considered. Why should webcomics be listed separately, but not manga, underground or European comics? And for comics/film/tv, I think having four different articles for basically the same scope is unnecessary overkill. List of films and television series based on comics should probably suffice for starters. 惑乱 分からん 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Webcomics are not on paper and can be published for much less money and with much less editorial input than other forms of comics, all of which free webcomics from limitations the other forms have. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 01:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that it's enough reason to write a separate article. Robert Crumb published a lot of his own comics, himself, without editorial input. The same goes for several other comics fanzines. Usually they had a very small number of readers, but some became very popular. I don't think having separate articles is a good choice, in the film/Tv articles, Asterix is considered a comic strip rather than a comic book, and V for Vendetta is considered as both. 惑乱 分からん 01:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Not a great example as they shouldn't be there. I have removed V for Vendetta and once the mess over the other entry is sorted (it should never have been moved to "American comic books" at which point it lost its international examples) is fixed I'll move Asterix over there too. The bottom line is that comic books are printed on paper in multi-page stories while webcomics have each "page" released peridiocally over an electronic medium. I would also oppose the merging of comic books and comic strips as they are also distinct formats. However, all this comes down to is my opinion versus yours. If you disagree so thoroughly create the entry and if someone suggests a merge then a group of peers can offer their opinions on the matter and that is the way it is going to be decided. (Emperor 02:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC))
Opinions, yeah, apparently so. I don't think the different formats of the medium needs to be sorted at this stage. I'm for one article, though it should have marked the type of comic, and in the case it has been filmed, wheteher the film is live-action, animation or both, or whether it was filmed as a feature film, tv series or both.惑乱 分からん 14:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
All of those are constrained by the paper format. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 03:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
But the DIY attitude in comic creating has existed long before the Internet became popular, see minicomic. 惑乱 分からん 14:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what minicomics have to do with webcomics. One is constrained by paper, and the other is not. The only thing they maybe have in common is that you will be hard-pressed to find too many Wikipedia articles on minicomics. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 23:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is that paper in itself isn't necessarily a constraint. 惑乱 分からん 13:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Paper comics can't use animation, links, or metatext. They can't easily be distributed unless in a certain size range, whereas webcomics can be as long and wide as the author intends and still use the same delivery system. Webcomics can easily use branching narratives through page links, but print comics cannot. To say that paper is not more constraining than the web is incorrect. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 01:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think most of these statements are irrelevant to the discussion, (animation, links, metatext) unless it strays so far away from the original medium that it could be argued it no longer is a comic, anymore. It's true that it's a form that's easier to distribute, and that it might be easier for an artist to reach out with a longer narrative, but I don't think it warrants a separate article. Just a sub-section of explanation, and a note next to the character listed. 惑乱 分からん 15:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outsiders characters

Whilst reading the list I noticed that two characters from DC's Outsiders; Grace and Thunder, appear to be missing. In Outsiders December 2006 (issue #41), the two are shown to be involved in a romantic/ sexual relationship.

Well, add them. 惑乱 分からん 16:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

What about Harley Quin and Poison Ivy? Also are all the LGBT characters from Sandman present? I didn't see Wanda, but the list is a jumble so I may have overlooked. Is Desire LGBT? Technically in some way It is something.

I don't think Harley and Ivy have ever been explicitly stated as bi or lesbian(?) Desire is interesting, I guess sie is a bisexual ambisexual, or something. The list is, naturally, incomplete. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 16:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikify characters

THere should be links to each characters wikipedia page. For instance, there's no link for the Rawhide Kid. - Peregrine Fisher 15:16, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Miscategorizations

I’m holding off on simply making the changes because I’m not completely up to date on the characters and my comics are currently unaccessible to check the references I have in mind.

Timothy Ravenwind notes he’s bisexual in one of the Mark Millar issues of Swamp Thing (which I specifically remember because the reference was so clunky), but is listed as gay. Is there any event to justify listing him as gay rather than bisexual when he self-described as the latter?

Freddie "Tom O' Bedlam" Harper-Seaton from The Invisibles is listed as undetermined, but he’s clearly gay though with a thing for Edie. King Mob (from the present) asks him about it, and he responds with a “I suppose I am” to the sexual invert question. I could see the attraction to Edie bringing up the question of whether he’s gay or bi, but the “possibly gay or bisexual” suggests that straight is also a possibility.

Danny the Street is definitely gay as I recall, not just a transvestite. He makes reference to using Palaré so the straights wouldn’t know what they were talking about. Certainly there’s the question of how a street could be gay, but as he’s been assigned a gender and the question only exists once accepting a sentient transvestite street, I would think it a moot one. Skyhawk0 11:22, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Magik

Can someone inform me why Magik keeps phasing on and off the list? Is a rogue user adding her and then someone removes her?

Seriously, she and shadowcat are on the list and I don't think either of them are gay or bi? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.190.114 (talk) 18:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Wishful thinking. I have friends who loudly proclaim this or that character to be gay basically because they (the friend) want them to be, and so find the most ridiculously extreme examples of same-gender friendship and blow it up into a love affair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.19.246 (talk) 14:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Doop-bisexual.png

Image:Doop-bisexual.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)