User talk:LG02

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Welcome!

Hello, LG02, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! Aboutmovies (talk) 17:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Counties of the UK

A discussion is underway about the List of the counties of the United Kingdom at WT:UKGEO as to the right way forwards with this article. The use of "traditional" boundaries is overwhelmingly and consistently objected to by the Wikipedia community. I'd urge you to familliarise yourself with WP:PLACE that makes explicitly clear that (quote) "we do not take the minority view that the historic counties still exist with the former boundaries".

  • On the other hand, we do not deny that the opinion exists, surely? My concern was to note that some people hold to an alternative opinion.

LG02 (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to revert your latest edit, per policy, as it includes material that is not attributed any source. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Very well. For my guidance though, what material needs further citation? The use of former counties in historical and genealogical research is patently obvious; no-one is going to look an eighteenth century ancestor up in records for "West Midlands"! The use of the various alternative labels for those counties is everywhere (and the one less usual one was fully cited). As for the existence of a difference of opinion as to their very existence, just look at all the heated discussions various people have had about that very subject!

LG02 (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree these boundaries are important, and have fought hard to keep these mentioned in lead sections (where boundaries have been reformed) at our WP:UKCITIES guide. Genealogical records post 1891 (in England at least) are actually compiled according to the Administrative counties of England though - census returns even use the title explicity - not the historic boundaries. Simillarly, our own records are going to be compiled according to contemporary (post 74/98) boundaries. But you make a valid point non-the-less. My concern is that this material is already covered in several other articles.
That the opinion exists is hard to attribute to a reliable source. Granted some organisations assert these claims (like the Association of British Counties) but these are not easily quantifiable or verifiable in third-party sources. ABC's site has actually been shown to have several false claims in it (like the misattributation of what it calls "government quotes", and inventing the term "traditional county"), which is why it is treated with the utmost caution. Remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox and personal opinions are often disected quickly by other users.
"Geographical counties" is also a rather odd claim (not on your part of course). Middlesex (and it was only Middlesex) was once refered to as a "geographical county" very shortly after the creation of the County of London, in a single publication. The term never took off. The ancient counties (as defined in a broader range of texts) were never refered to as the "geographical counties"; it's a false assertion made by, yes, ABC. The Ceremonial counties of England are often referred to as the "Geographic counties" however.
I hope that helps somewhat, and you enjoy being part of the Wikipedia community. -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Re: The old debate!

Hello there, and thanks for the contact.

The counties debate is a really contentious issue, as you know, that has fostered some strong and deeply entrenched perspectives. I'm actually of the opinion that the "historic boundaries" are important for the country and its heritage. The "debate" is hightened in my locality of Greater Manchester - where a very vocal minority of folk really object to the contemporary county set-up (which I understand as the name is rather terrible). The problem in that part of the country is a couple of people use ABC stuff to "airbrush" out mentions of "Greater Manchester".

To answer your quesiton however, I suppose the most knowledgable editors on Wikipedia about this issue are User:MRSC and User:Lozleader. These would be able to give much more informed answers on certain aspects of ABC's material. I hope this helps, --Jza84 |  Talk  18:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It has been mentioned that User:Owain may be Owain Vaughan of Monmouthshire, who happens to be Chairman of ABC. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  15:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)