Talk:Lessons for Children
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Lessons for Children is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do. | |||||||||||||||||
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An entry from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on October 26, 2007. | |||||||||||||||||
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This article is part of WikiProject Children's literature, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to children's and young adult literature on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project. | ||
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Article Grading: Thanks; a fascinating and well-written article. Particularly good are - highlighting the importance of her ground-breaking approach to a specifically children's literature - excellent cross-references to other writers and thinkers; this substantiates claims for her importance, and her difference from them Points for further development include - as suggested, her influence on modern writers - Barrett Browning, T S Eliot, and presumably if she was read by so many, on others - the difference between Lessons for Children and Hymns in Prose indicating (encouraging?) an emerging sense of the secular; compare this with the influence of Sunday Schools, and her role in their emergence
The article encouraged me to read the full article on her life, also very good. Thank you for both. Arvwd 11:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC) |
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The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Awadewit (talk • contribs • email) This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute. |
[edit] Columns
Could someone fix the columns? They are misaligned. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 03:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Very interesting
Well done to the author(s). What a pleasure to read such an interesting and well-written DYK article on the main page. One small point - I think the nationality of the author/country of publication should be maentioned in the intro paras - the intro paras state that the book influenced British authors but doesn't state explicitly that the book itself was published in the UK. 81.152.169.70 13:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Good article assessment
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
- Is it reasonably well written?
- A. Prose quality:
- B. MoS compliance:
- A. Prose quality:
- Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
- A. References to sources:
- B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
- C. No original research:
- A. References to sources:
- Is it broad in its coverage?
- A. Major aspects:
- B. Focused:
- A. Major aspects:
- Is it neutral?
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- Is it stable?
- No edit wars, etc:
- No edit wars, etc:
- Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
- A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
- Overall:
- Pass or Fail:
- Pass or Fail:
1
- Minor grammar issues; I’ll fix what stands out.
- Possible typo: “Although there are no extent first editions…”
- Inconsistent cases, e.g. “Barbauld's Lessons emphasize the value…” and “Barbauld's Lessons also illustrates mother and child…” - Lessons needs to be consistently plural or consistently singular.
- An instance of a weasel word: “some modern scholars…” and passive voice: “It is through his exposure…”
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- It is true that "some modern scholars" and not "all modern scholars". This is accurate. Writing "modern scholars" implies "all". Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Rewritten as: Charles learns to care for his fellow human beings through his exposure to animals. Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Weasel words aren’t problematic for reasons pertaining to factuality or truth; I would certainly not debate that “some” is accurate and “all” is not. The problem with “some say yes”, for example, is that the converse, “some say no”, is, consequently, also correct. Therefore, in addition to an undesirable lack of specificity, weasel words are to be avoided because they are predisposed to manipulation to serve whatever cause an editor may wish to further. To put this in context, consider, “some modern scholars have not pointed to the lack of overt religious references in Lessons…” - ignoring that the phrasing is odd. This statement is equally as true as the existing statement, but it supports, rather than rebuts, the previous statement. The problem would be fixed by naming one such scholar. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The problem with naming scholars every single time (and it crops up in this article) is that it then appears that only one person holds the view. I name scholars when views are theirs alone or when the idea I am citing "belongs" to them, in the sense that it is acknowledged in academic circles that they "own" it as intellectual property of some sort or other. Articles on topics such as this would be unreadable for a lay audience if they were constantly peppered with "Scholar X says", "Scholar Y says" "Scholar Z says". Some summary is necessary and this is the best way to do it. I am already unhappy with how many people I had to name in this article. The average reader does not care about the scholar - they care about the information. I am usually very meticulous about these kinds of attribution and I feel that this one is fair. It is not a wildly vague "some people" and there is, of course, a citation. Awadewit | talk 01:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I certainly understand the predicament. This issue, however, is more so one of technical necessity than of readability. Ultimately, we don’t want to allow the aforementioned logical problem to persist or violate the Manual of Style. Perhaps you could substitute this sentence: “A lack of overt religious references in Lessons, particularly in contrast to Hymns, has prompted alternative claims that the work is secular”? Other options may be to simply drop the “some”, or say “…scholar X, for example…”, “…scholar X, among others,…”, etc. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 02:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Currently the sentences read like this: As F. J. Harvey Darton, an early scholar of children's literature, explains, they "have the same ideal, in one aspect held by Rousseau, in another wholly rejected by him: the belief that a child should steadily contemplate Nature, and the conviction that by so doing he will be led to contemplate the traditional God". However, some modern scholars have pointed to the lack of overt religious references in Lessons, particularly in contrast to Hymns, to make the claim that it is secular. - I think that the contrast is clear - between Darnton, an early scholar, and "some modern scholars". That contrast is made explicit by the "however". Awadewit | talk 02:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I’m concerned that your response strays from the point at issue. The sentence and paragraph are indeed clear and factually accurate. The issue is, however, that the phrasing is technically a logical fallacy and explicitly to be avoided per the MoS. That being said, I think it is only a violation of the letter of the rule, not the spirit; thus, this issue won’t preclude the article’s passing. You might, just for the sake of it, want to take on the challenge of finding an agreeable phrasing that does not rely on a weasel word. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I don't see the logical fallacy, I'm afraid. Which fallacy is it? I might also point out that these sentences are definitely "following the spirit" as outlined in the guideline as they make every effort to identify who the some are—modern scholars—and contrast them to the early scholar Harvey Darnton. Awadewit | talk 23:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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(unindent) I've read that page and your explanation - neither identifies the fallacy. The page identifies the "bandwagon fallacy (which is the "many people say" wording). That is not a problem here. This sentence doesn't fall into any of the traps listed on that page, either. I teach argumentative writing and am familiar with most logical fallacies. I don't see one here. If there is one and I'm missing it, please explain it more clearly or identify it. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 00:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The second paragraph of the weasel words page addresses the fallacy; weasel words make the converse of a given statement true, making the statement, at best, weak; I would argue meaningless. We need not kibitz over this further; I’ve ceded that the spirit of the rule has not been violated. I was merely suggesting that you might wish to explore one of the numerous, equally accurate and eloquent phrasings which would avoid the problem all together. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, the converse is true as well, but it is not important to include. The one modern scholar who does not agree, if there is one, is not a prominent voice in the chorus of secularization thesis advocates. However, if I said "most", someone would ask me to prove that somewhere it said "most" and I can only tell you that I know it is "most" from reading the literature, so "some" is the best way to go here. I hardly think the statement is meaningless since the meat of it is what the scholars said, not who said it. Everyone talking is a respected scholar. That is all that the reader really needs to know. I'm not really sure how to more accurately phrase this, frankly. I have thought about it quite a bit as we have been talking/writing, but nothing has occurred to me yet. I think you may be reading this guideline a bit too strictly - it is not always poor judgment to use "some", just like it not always poor writing to begin a sentence with "but". :) Awadewit | talk 01:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Let me reiterate that I’ve ceded you’re not in violation; there is, after all, a green check next to MoS compliance. This discussion is not about a strict interpretation; there would be a red “x” if it were. I’m also not searching for a more accurate phrasing. Simply put: I’m just saying the wording isn’t optimal. If you’re interested, I’d be happy to elaborate and continue to pursue a mutual understanding; that, however, would be a continuation better had on one of our talk pages. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Wording seems, at times, overly ornate. Words such as “imbibe” to describe acquisition of knowledge, although grammaticality correct, could affect readability (in this example, imbibe is problematic as it is typically used solely in the context of consumption of liquids).
- This sentence seems abrupt and could stand to be better integrated into the paragraph: “Building on Locke's theory of the association of ideas, David Hartley had developed an associationist psychology that greatly influenced writers such as Barbauld (who had read Joseph Priestley's redaction of it).”
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- Now reads: Barbauld's pedagogy was fundamentally based on John Locke's Some Thoughts Concerning Education (1693), the most influential pedagogical treatise in eighteenth-century Britain.[18] Building on Locke's theory of the association of ideas, which he had outlined in Some Thoughts, David Hartley had developed an associationist psychology that greatly influenced writers such as Barbauld (who had read Joseph Priestley's redaction of it). - Let me know if that fixes the problem, or if you want more of an explanation of the theory. Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The new phrasing is very good. David Hartley, however, seems to appear from nowhere. Perhaps something to the effect of “David Hartley, a philosopher influenced by Locke, had developed…” would be useful to the reader; I’m sure you could put it more eloquently than I. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- You don't think the "building on" part conveys that idea? Awadewit | talk 01:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Some sentences appear to be original research, e.g. “It is only in the 1990s and 2000s that Barbauld and other female educational writers are beginning to receive their due in the history of children's literature”. If I’m incorrect, a reference would be appreciated.
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- Not original research - a well-known fact. However, I will try to dig up a citation. Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Well known in academic or literally circles, perhaps, but I very much doubt the typical layman reader would have been aware of that. As much as it may occasionally pain me, they are the people for whom these articles are written. Thank you for the reference. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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3/4
- Although helped by the criticisms at the end of the article, this article appears too approbatory in its treatment of the subject. I’m unable to give many examples, but phrasing such as “Lessons is far more than simply a way to acquire literacy…” seems too grand to be considered neutral. I would suggest looking it over for similar phrases (and, if you’d like, I’d be happy to do the same).
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- I agree with you - I felt the same way writing it. However, the published scholarship on this book sounds the same way. I am simply replicating their tone. One of the reasons for this laudatory tone in the published material is that there is so little of it and the scholars publishing on Barbauld's Lessons are trying to make a case for why it is significant. They might go overboard at times. However, that is the published material available. I think it would be disingenous of me to change that. That would be original research, in my opinion. Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Verifiable facts are facts regardless of the motives, perceived or otherwise, of those who pen them. As scholarly materials are not necessarily bound, as encyclopedias are, to neutrality, the tone present therein is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Indeed, the requirements that prose represent views fairly, proportionately and without bias necessitate revisions to the article. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I am comfortable that the article represents the scholarly material on Lessons. As I read through it again to change the verbs for Lessons, I checked for WP:PEACOCK terms and I removed a few phrases. However, I am confident that any superlatives that exist in the article are backed up by the sources. One of the reasons that I documented the "Reception" section so heavily was because I didn't think anyone would believe that this series was so influential (it is almost unheard of now). However, if you take into consideration that it was in print for over a century, the picture becomes clearer. Awadewit | talk 01:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Not a problem. You can always list questionable statements and I'll verify them for you by typing out quotations from the sources. Awadewit | talk 02:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- It reads better today. At the moment, I’m unable to provide further examples of approbatory phrasing. I’ll conclude, therefore, that such remaining faults lie with my personal interpretation and not the article itself. I’ll just request one last thing; could you better define what exactly “their due” is (e.g. recognition, acceptance, respect, etc)? Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- The online Merriam-Webster's defines due as "something that rightfully belongs to one". Awadewit | talk 23:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Yes, I'm asking you to tell us what that "something" is (e.g. recognition, acceptance, respect, etc). Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 23:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- An understanding of Lessons's place in the history of literature - how much it influenced readers and writers. Generally scholars grant such influential books pride of place in the narratives they tell about the literature or about childhood. However, Barbauld's Lessons has not yet been accorded this place in these larger stories about literature and childhood because so little scholarship has been done on it. Recently, the series is being given its "due" - being accorded the appropriate space in these histories. Awadewit | talk 00:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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- That is something that will need to be articulated in the article. Wikipedia is not a literary journal or dissertation; we don’t have the luxuries of writing to a predominately academic audience and the consequent assumption that they will understand the process through which such works receive recognition. Phrasing such as ‘receiving [one’s] due” contains a biased tone which implies “it’s about time” and is, therefore, a neutrality violation. If, however, that is truly the phrasing used by William McCarthy, put quotes around it and all will be well. Otherwise, as I said, please expand on “due” in the article; I’d even accept “due recognition”, albeit unenthusiastically. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 01:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
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(unindent) I have changed it to "to be acknowledged". Awadewit | talk 01:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Also, and in regard to board coverage, inclusion of additional criticisms may enhance the article. The existing criticisms seem to be mostly directed towards children’s literature in general or discontentment that Barbauld "wasted her talents" on children’s literature (which is, actually, backhanded praise). Is there any criticism of Lessons itself? You mention the book was too expensive for the poor; did contemporary/do modern critics comment on the exclusion of these children (who, I presume, would have been more numerous than middle or upper class children in the late 18th century)? Just a thought.
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- I have read almost everything there is on this book (it features prominently in my dissertation). There is criticism of Lessons itself and I have included that (see "Bibliography"). In fact, most of the article is based on the few articles that have been published on Lessons. I am confident that I have exhausted the resources for this article. Whatever is missing is missing because scholars haven't worked on it yet (maybe some day I'll publish something!). Awadewit | talk 22:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Overall:
- Despite the quibbles, this is a quite well written and researched article. If you are able to promptly (7 days) address the issues I’ve mentioned, I’ll go ahead and pass the article. Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 22:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
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- By the way, any imaginative ideas on how to get rid of these horrifically ugly tables? I had columns before, but they wouldn't format correctly. Is there any way to make the table lines disappear? They are just so invasive... Awadewit | talk 01:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- I changed the table in "Pedagogical theory". Is that what you're looking for? Ɛƚƈơƅƅơƚɑ talk 02:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Ah, aesthetic relief. Thank you! I'll just break that line earlier and all will be well. Awadewit | talk 02:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
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- Ok, breaking the line doesn't work. Do you know how to move the columns apart more so the first sentence isn't smooshed into the second column? Awadewit | talk 02:22, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
