Talk:Leopold and Loeb

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[edit] Jewish

I took out the word Jewish because Richard Leob's mother was NOT Jewish. But their own definition of what is a Jew, it runs through the mother. His mother was Catholic and his father was Jewish. Also Bobby Franks the murdered boy was Jewish by birth but the entire family had left Judaism and joined the Christian Science movement. By voluntary leaving their own faith, by the definition of the Jews this means they cease to be a Jews. All parties lived in a then heavily Jewish section. 4.142.45.213 (talk) 17:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)eric

[edit] lies and more lies

you have many many inaccuracies in your story. go to leopoldandloeb.com and you will find the truths, instead of these half truths, and gossip that you are writing.....

young bobby franks was not found by rail road workers, but instead, by a young polish factory worker.........so much for your credibility......

The majority of the story is wrong. For one thing, Richard Loeb was 18 at the time of the murder. If you can't even get the basics right... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.143.250.81 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 1 December 2003

[edit] Homosexual relationship

I think it should be mentioned that Leopold and Loeb were homosexual partners, which helps explain the trust that they had in each other to plan this crime. An interesting vignette to be added to this article would also reflect on the homosexual attitudes at the time, in which women were escorted out of the courtroom when the pair's sexual relationship was brought up.

Some mention of the homosexuality should be mentioned. Though at the time of the trial, it appeared that Loeb was not homosexual per say, but went along with Leopold because he needed a partner in his petty thefts. Leopold traded sexual favors for an "agreement" to participate in Loebs petty crimes. Somewhere this became somewhat of a sexual relationship but it's never clear what it was. Clearly Leopold was much more attracted to Loeb, who seemed somewhat indifferent. Loeb seemed to motivated by some misguided idea that because he was a "superior" person like Leopold the two should stick together.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.127.210.40 (talk • contribs) 00:24, 28 July 2005

[edit] comment from cleanup

The following was posted on WP:CU. I've removed the article, since listing it there doesn't seem warranted, but the issue should be dealt with. Rvollmert 12:19, 2004 Aug 28 (UTC)

research ambiguity re Meyer Levin's description of Jewish reaction (directly in 1920s or via fiction in 1950s), and qualify or position accordingly in article.

[edit] rehabilitated?

The wikipedia article currently says that both men showed signs of being rehabilitated during their stay in Prison. A couple of years ago the Toronto Globe and Mail did an article revisiting the case. While it presented Leopold, the follower, as someone who was rehabilitated, it presented Loeb as unredeemed. According to the Globe article he engaged in the very dangerous practice of making sexual overtures to other prisoners. And it said that he was stabbed in the Prison shower by a prisoner who wasn't happy with Loeb's suggestion.

Apparently Loeb had been studying English at the time of the murder. And when he was killed some cynical newspapermen chose the headline English Major ends Sentence with a Proposition. Geo Swan 23:52, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate someone from committing crimes, not to make them asexual. Making sexual overtures is not a crime, so there's nothing in what you've said that suggests Loeb was "unredeemed". Nice recycling of the dismissal of a murder with a quip, though. - Nunh-huh 22:19, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Prison Razor Fight

The historical record, including information here Leopoldandloeb.com, seems to indicate that Loeb initiate the prison razor fight as a consequence of a rejected sexual advance. Of course, the history may be skewed by possible self-serving comments made by the other participant in that fight. Even so, it still appears that our current version regarding this, does not accurately reflect the historical record. I am planning on changing that, but will wait here for 5 days for comments from others first. 216.153.214.94 17:34, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Chicago Tribune reported that Loeb (as well as Leopold) had their wealthy families "BUY" them many conveniences in jail and they were "comfortable," compared to other prisoners. While the two were seperated for their own good, they eventually were allowed to associate with each other again. It was the families ablity to buy the two "comforts" that made the pair somewhat unpopular in prison. Loeb always the "cockier" of the bunch was not as discrete as Leopold with flaunting his inside prison wealth and this lead to Loebs killing."

The Chicago Tribune also reported that while it seemed rather likely the attack was planned and not self-defence, the public at the time considered the two got off way too easy and no one was particulary upset that Loeb was killed calling it "justice at last."

[edit] Tony Manke or Tony Minke?

The article gives the name of the man who discovered the body as "Tony Manke". This was introduced by 141.154.182.6 (talk · contributions) in [02:35, 23 Jan 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leopold_and_Loeb&diff=9572810&oldid=9572798]. Some other sources give his name as Tony Minke. Someone recently changed to Minke and was reverted.

The split goes like this on Google.

Tony Manke:

Tony Minke:

I make no judgement on the reliability of the sources, but since there does seem to be independent support for the name "Tony Minke" I'm inclined to leave it like that until it can be properly verified and changed if necessary. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 17:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] This was a brutal murder by two cold blooded pyschos

These were two elitist Jews, and they killed for sport. First of all look at the victim, he was a 14 yr old boy and they saw him as a 'Blossoming sex object'. When 'Babe' (Leopold's nickname) put his face in the boy's crotch, Booby Franks put up a struggle. That's when Babe used the chisel. As the boy was moaning Babe became aroused and pulled Bobby's pants down. Loeb could hardly drive as he watched Babe.

After Bobby died they drove around with the corpse. Towards nightfall they headed out to Wolf Lake where the two of them stripped him, and then poured acid on the boy's genitals. Only God knows how many other children were in that back seat of Loeb's Willys sedan. But their psychiatrist said they admitted to killing four others.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.194.210 (talk)

... and your point is what? +ILike2BeAnonymous 08:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Link?

I've never done this before, so I hope I'm doing it right, and I apologize if I'm screwing anything up. The speech on www.americanrhetoric.com refenced in the link titled "two-hour speech" does not actually contain any of the text of the citation directly after the link, ei. "this terrible crime was inherent in his organism..." Either Clarence Darrow did not utter those words, American Rhetoric omitted them, or the wrong speech was referenced, but I really couldn't say which. Just trying to point out a discrepency for correction. Also, the speech on American Rhetoric didn't seem like it would have taken an hour, so perhaps it is an abridged version? 64.32.176.130 17:58, 16 August 2005

I think the American Rhetoric version is the later, edited version which appeared in pamphlet form after the trial. I don't see how this would have taken two hours either, unless he spoke very slowly and took lots of pauses (which is possible). The link below is to a longer version of the speech, but the article states that the complete speech took TWELVE hours, and I can't see any way that this would have taken that long regardless of how slowly it was recited. Perhaps someone has access to another version? Or is the "twelve hour" description incorrect? http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/leoploeb/darrowclosing.html Canonblack 16:59, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the link is wrong. I have removed it. The page at http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/cdarrowpleaformercy.htm does not contain the passage
"this terrible crime was inherent in his organism, and it came from some ancestor … Is any blame attached because somebody took Nietzsche’s philosophy seriously and fashioned his life upon it? … it is hardly fair to hang a 19-year-old boy for the philosophy that was taught him at the university."
A valid source is needed.
--Liberatus (talk) 09:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


About the name of the man who found the body: in the official record of the courtroom hearing, his name is recorded as "Minke"; I don't think you can get much more authoritative than that.

The killing of Richard Loeb in the shower: the only evidence we have that Loeb made sexual advances comes from statements from his killer. (The claim served its purpose since the killer went unpunished for the killing.) It is not clear even that Loeb was homosexual; the psychiatric reports on Loeb and Leopold indicate that Loeb had sex (reluctantly) with Leopold so that he (Loeb) would have a companion when he was carrying out his crimes. So the article wisely refrains from repeating the (unverifiable) assertion that Loeb was killed after making sexual advances.

The website leopoldandloeb.com is not at all as accurate as some contributors to this page seem to think. There are many errors and inaccuracies on that website -- probably because it relies too heavily on Nathan Leopold's self-serving autobiography, Life Plus 99 Years as well as Leopold's testimony before the parole board during the 1950s.

Otherwise, I was very impressed with the Wikipedia article. Virtually every account of the case manages to get something seriously wrong and yet this article is very accurate. Only a few things I would change: (1) Leopold was driving the car and Loeb suffocated the victim by stuffing a rag down his throat. So it's not strictly correct to write that "Leopold and Loeb then suffocated Franks." (2) Leopold poured acid on Franks's face but it was insufficient to do much damage and water from the culvert also washed away much of its effect. So the face was not actually "burned"; (although that was the killers' intent, of course). (3) Darrow's speech was probably the worst of his career -- but I'm in a minority of one as far as that is concerned. Almost no-one has read the actual speech. Darrow arranged with the authorities to take most of his speech out of the official record (it is missing) and later arranged for a heavily edited version to be reprinted in a pamphlet. This edited version has been reprinted endlessly in anthologies. The unedited speech can be found in the Chicago newspapers at the time -- but no-one bothers to read those versions of the speech; and so everyone continues to believe that Darrow gave a great speech. Bkm98 05:17, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 12 hour speech?

The L&L article mentions Darrow's 12 hours speech but in the copies of the closing argument I found, his summation is just around 20,000 words. At a slow rate of 150 wpm, one should be able to complete that speech in just over 2 hours. Much of is must have been edited as a previous post suggests. --Filosofic 02:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)DGS

As this site explains (if I read it correctly), the summation was the conclusion of the 12-hour speech, not the entire speech.[1] -Will Beback 03:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed

I think the date of Leopold's death should be changed to 29 August 1971. According to an article in the Chicago Tribune dated 30 August 1971, "Nathan Leopold, 66 ... died yesterday in Puerto Rico". The title of the article is: "Nathan Leopold Dies at age 66".


The citation about the use of hydrochloric acid can be found at www.crimelibrary.com under the Leopold and Loeb article. I'd add it, but I don't know how and don't have the time right now to learn to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.205.51.224 (talk • contribs) 08:56, March 7, 2007

I added this citation for hydrochloric acid now. Thanks --Cyfal (talk) 00:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Public Reaction section

I can find nothing to support the statements in this section. We should remove it. Never been to spain 03:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)