Talk:Leonard Oprea

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[edit] Quotations about Leonard Oprea’s work

I've just removed, for a third time, the 'Quotations about Leonard Oprea’s work' section. As pointed out in a previous edit summary, the section is composed of quotations drawn from a self-published source. As such, their inclusion runs counter to Wikipedia's policy concerning verifiability, in particular the sections addressing self-published sources and Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves. This, too, was addressed in an edit summary. On a related note, I respectfully disagree with Judetadeus (talk · contribs) who writes in an edit summary (and appears to repeat here) that the quotations are 'necessary' and their inclusion 'mandatory' in the article. The issue of verifiability aside, I do not see that the inclusion of four random quotations, with no context provided, has a place in an encyclopedic article. Victoriagirl (talk) 20:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NO ISSUE regarding THE VERIFIABILITY of Quotations about Leonard Oprea’s work

  • Dear Victoriagirl user, please, respectfully I ask you do not be a Wikipedia censor. It is against the rules of Wikipedia free encyclopedia.
  • Dear Victoriagirl since when is a section of Wikipedia article out side of the Wikipedia rules just because it is composed of quotations drawn from a self-published source (nota bene: which actually is a POD book, NOT a self-publishing book and it is a perfect legal // check up its ISBN number// publication on sale in the USA and world-wide on amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com and other more than 100 web-sites and you can also find it in the public American libraries of Boston or of the Cultural Romanian Institute of New York etc.etc.etc.)?!!
  • Please, dear Victoriagirl just try to check up professionally the Quotations about Leonard Oprea’s work according to google.com, amazon.com, barnesandnoble.com, Leonard Oprea article of Romanian Wikipedia and according to who are Vladimir Tismaneanu, Norman Manea, Adam J.Sorkin and last but not least Andrei Codrescu, the well-known cultural American VIP who signed these quotations. Years ago, when these quotations were introduced in this article, their sources were carefully verified and everything was and still is according to the Wikipedia rules. Every Quotation content of this article is verifiable anytime by anyone/ sic!/. Thank you for your understanding. judetadeus (talk) 6:24PM, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Judetadeus (talk · contribs), in the interests of clarity, and in keeping with guidelines, I've moved your post (directly above) so it follows that to which it responds. Please note that when employing the four tide signature your user name, time and date are added automatically to the post. There is no need for alteration of any kind.
Continuing with the hope of bringing some clarity, I'll address each of your points separately:
  • I do take offense to the "Wikipedia censor" reference, and remind you of Wikipedia's policy concerning etiquette.
  • I know of no assertion that any section in any Wikipedia article is beyond the encyclopedia's rules. I have pointed out that the quotations in question - seen here under the newly renamed 'Quotations' section - fail to meet Wikipedia's policy concerning verifiability. The first of the three are sourced from the back cover of Leonard Oprea’s The Book of Theophil Magus or 40 Tales about Man, a book published through Authorhouse (formerly known as 1stBooks), which clearly identifies itself as a firm for self-published authors. While there is nothing wrong with self-publishing - no one has suggested that the book isn't "perfectly legal", that it lacks an ISBN, or that it isn't available for purchase - materials published in this manner are, according to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, "largely not acceptable as sources." Furthermore, the source of the final quotation, that from Andrei Codrescu, references an "amazon.com review of The Book of Theophil Magus or 40 Tales about Man". In fact, the amazon.com listing for The Book of Theophil Magus or 40 Tales about Man features no such review.
  • I have searched for these quotes using google as you suggest, but this provides only one hit each: all to Answers.com's mirror article. An anonymous user has posted the three back cover quotes on Amazon.com. Barnesandnoble.com features not a single one of these quotes. I note that the quotations are not included in the Romanian Wikipedia article and that "Articles and posts on Wikipedia may not be used as sources." That those being quoted - Vladimir Tismaneanu, Norman Manea, Adam J.Sorkin and Andrei Codrescu - are living persons, it is all the more important that the sources provided meet the verifiability guidelines. As I know nothing of the process employed years ago in verifying these quotations - I see no trace on this discussion page or elsewhere in Wikipedia - I cannot speak to the issue. That said, I can say with certainty that the sources currently provided for these quotations do not meet the verifiability guidelines.
I must end with a query: would you have used 72.73.96.76 to make this edit? If so, you may wish to revert your last edit as it violates the three-revert rule. Victoriagirl (talk) 04:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations

Please note that the Quotations section of articles is now deprecated, and quotations should go in wikiquote, with a link template {{wikiquote|Leonard Oprea}} in the external links section of the article. Tyrenius (talk) 06:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations Issue - Dear Victoriagirl and Dear Tyrenius, please...

Dear Victoriagirl and Dear Tyrenius,

  • Please, I re-read carfully the 3RR. And, it is questionable if you are right concerning my possible violations of the 3RR. But, if you consider that I overreacted - O.K., I'm sorry.
  • On the other hand - yes, AuthorHouse is the former 1stLibrary Books. Yet, this is a POD Publishing House, not at all, I'm saying crystal-clear, not at all a self-publishing venture. With a POD Publishing House the author must respect the editorial international rules and, despite the fact that he pays some money for the editing&marketing of the book, the rest is the classic way to publish a book and make it available on the market. So, it is a pretty big difference between a self-publishing venture and a POD Publishing House. For example, the oldest POD Publishing House in the USA is Xlibris... a strategic partner of Random House Ventures. Therefore, may I ask: is Random House not credible for you Victoriagirl or for anyone from Wikipedia?
  • Last but not least, all your explanations concernig your checking up of these quotations are a totally false argumentation. How do you question cultural American VIPs like Vladimir Tismaneanu (see on English Wikipedia), Norman Manea (see on English Wikipedia), Adam J.Sorkin (see on English Wikipedia) and Andrei Codrescu (see on English Wikipedia) - who are American universitary professors and public persons? They can be contacted to verifiy if they wrote and agreed to publish these blurbs or not.
  • Concerning your research to check up on amazon.com the existence of Andrei Codrescu's quote about the literature of Leonard Oprea, well, you missed this reader's review (quote from amazon.com): / *****/ 7 of 7 people found the following review helpful: A marvelous book � this unique vision !, November 17, 2003. I repeat you can find it easily among the 9 reader reviews of the book of Leonard Oprea. Regarding your research on Romanian Wikipedia, sorry, but you did it superficially as well.
  • My final conclusion: Dear Wikipedia specialists & cultural friends - please, do not eliminate again the quotations. Please, find a solution to keep them in the article. I am just an old professor who loves great books and great authors; I am not a computer geek. When I introduced this article 4 years ago I did it because I considered Wikipedia being the library of the future and a huge opportunity to transform culture in a living source accessible to everyone. The rest is silence, said Hamlet. God forgive us.--Judetadeus (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2007 (UTC)--Judetadeus (talk) 20:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nota Bene: Wikipedia Good references and Quotations issue

Dear Victoriagirl and Dear Tyrenius,

  • Please, be so kind and re-read Wikipedia Good references (you have it below). Here, inside this Wikipedia rule, you have a black on white sentence, I qoute: You must use reliable sources, such as published books, mainstream press, authorised web sites... Yes, I know you will tell me: ... please, in the final sentence it is written, I quote: ... nor is... self-published... But, please, I wrote you several times and do not forget: for many real reasons a POD Publishing House is not, not at all a self-publishing venture. (By the way, I think that you do not understand too well the basic definition of POD. The POD means the Publishing On Demand... which basically is to print a book /already leaglly edited and prepared for printing/ only, but only when this book in demand from the market of books: readers, book stores, specialized /authorized/ web-sites, public or universitary libraries etc.)

Therefor, my question: what is wrong with these Quotations?!! They are on a published book backcover (nota bene: not on a self-published book! ), they are on amazon.com and other authorized web sites... Anytime you can ask their well-known cultural American VIP authors, as I wrote you already... So, for God's sake: what is wrong?!! How should I consider this?!... Please, re-read: Good references: A reference must be accurate, i.e. it must prove the statement in the text. To validate "Mike Brown climbed Everest", it's no good linking to a page about Everest, if Mike Brown isn't mentioned, nor to one on Mike Brown, if it doesn't say that he climbed Everest. You have to link to a source that proves his achievement is true. You must use reliable sources, such as published books, mainstream press, authorised web sites, and official documents. Blogs, Myspace, Youtube, fan sites and extreme minority texts are not usually acceptable, nor is original research, e.g. your own unpublished, or self-published, essay or research.

  • My final conclusion: Dear Wikipedia specialists & cultural friends - please, do not eliminate again the quotations. Please, find a solution to keep them in the article. I am just an old professor who loves great books and great authors; I am not a computer geek. When I introduced this article 4 years ago I did it because I considered Wikipedia being the library of the future and a huge opportunity to transform culture in a living source accessible to everyone. The rest is silence, said Hamlet. God forgive us.--Judetadeus (talk) 18:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)--Judetadeus (talk) 20:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Judetadeus (talk · contribs), as your two posts above address similar issues - indeed the second repeats the 'final conclusion' - I'm taking the liberty of addressing both together.
  • Time having elapsed, the issue of whether or not the three-revert rule was violated appears moot. That said, in the interests of moving forward, I will ask what it is you find questionable about the policy.
  • You have written twice that Authorhouse is "not at all a self-publishing venture". However, as I have pointed out above, the company clearly identifies itself as such on the first page of its website. I am perfectly aware of the meaning of POD and would ask that you not presume what it is I do or do not understand. With respect, I see no relevance in the fact that Random House is an investor in Xlibris.
  • You write in your first post that my explanations concerning the checking of the quotations is "a totally false argument". How so? In good faith, I employed the google search engine - as you suggested - and found nothing but a Wikipedia mirror article. I checked for the quotes at barnesandnoble.com - as you suggested - and found not a one. I checked for the quotes at amazon.com - as you suggested - and found an anonymous posting of the three quotes found on the back cover of The Book of Theophil Magus or 40 Tales about Man. You point out, correctly, that I missed the quotation from Andrei Codrescu. This particular quote, described as being "from amazon.com review" in the current article, is featured as an unsourced quote at the end of a review posted by yet another anonymous user (it is presented here under the title 'A marvelous book this unique vision !'). Finally, I checked the Romanian Wikipedia article - as you suggested - and found it featured not one of the quotes. You have written that this particular search was done "superficially". Again, how so?
  • Nowhere have I have questioned the figures you describe as "cultural American VIPs". I wonder at this conclusion. Please clarify.
  • Again, I note that these quotes are derived from a self-published book. As such, their inclusion runs counter to Wikipedia's verifiability policy, under which it is stated that "self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources". I add that anonymous postings on amazon.com also fail meet the standards of the policy. Moreover, I would argue that as they are derived from a self-published source, the inclusion of these quotes is also prohibited in the section titled 'Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves'.
  • Finally, I repeat an observation made in my first post on this page: I do not see that the inclusion of four random quotations, with no context provided, has a place in an encyclopedic article. Victoriagirl (talk) 21:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of quotations

The books are via Authorhouse. As its website makes clear: "Since 1997, AuthorHouse, the leading self-publishing company in the world, has helped more than 30,000 authors reach their book publishing goals and self publish more than 40,000 books." WP:SELFPUB makes clear that these self-published quotes may not be used as this would "involve claims about third parties." Furthermore, it is a WP:BLP issue for any living people quoted. Please do not reinsert this material. Tyrenius (talk) 21:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Happy New Year! and a few authorized sources for the needed citations concerning Leonard Oprea's anti-communist dissidence and his banned books by the Romanian Communist dictatorship

Concerning all the above information here are a few authorized sources:

  • Leonard Oprea – Romanian Wikipedia <http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Oprea>
  • USA Congressional Record: “Human Rights in Romania”, Vol. 136, Washington, Thursday, July 26, 1990, No.98; <http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwcr.html>
  • CEEOL Author List Romania/ The Central And Eastern European Online Library - Leonard Oprea, Romania, <http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/authordetails.aspx?authorId=b74a386d-5a51-4466-ab2c-6156b2c5f90f>
  • Frankfurt International Book Fair, October 19-23, 2005, The Catalogue of The Romanian Authors <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Book_Fair>
  • The Romanian National Daily Newspaper “Jurnalul Naţional”/ The National Journal/, January 8-9, 2005; the editorial: “O voce autentic diferită“/A Genuinely Different Voice/ by Vladimir Tismaneanu; <http://www.jurnalul.ro>
  • The Romanian National Weekly Literary Review “Romania literara”/ The Literary Romania/, July 13, 2007; the critical review: “Dumnezeu şi lumea de azi”/God and Today’s world/, by Tudorel Urian; <http://www.romlit.ro/>
  • The Romanian National Monthly Cultural Review “Timpul”/ The Time/ February 2, 2005; the critical review: “Cămaşa de forţă – o poveste atroce din vremuri negre”/ The Straitjacket – an atrocious tale from dark times/ by Liviu Antonesei; <http://www.timpul.ro/>
  • The Critical References from the short-stories and novellas' volume, “Radiografia clipei”/ The x-ray of an instant/ and the novel, “Cămaşa de forţă"/ The Straitjacket/ both in the second edition published by Curtea Veche Publishing, 2003-2004, Bucharest, Romania; <http://www.curteaveche.ro/>
  • Gelu Vlaşin’s foreword, ”Fascinaţia dureroasa a Cămaşii de forţă”/ The Painful Fascination of the Straitjacket/, from the electronic edition of the novel “Cămaşa de forţă”/ The Straitjacket/, published by LiterNet Publishing House, 2005, Bucharest, Romania; <http://editura.liternet.ro/carte/>
  • other authorized sources: search Leonard Oprea on <http://www.google.com>

After the Romanian Revolution of 1989, living in Bucharest, he became a well-known Romanian writer, journalist and editor. He was able to resume publishing his works: novels, short stories, tales and essays, meditations etc. He founded the Romanian Publishing House Athena, the Vladimir Colin Romanian Cultural Foundation as well as the Vladimir Colin international award.--Judetadeus (talk) 23:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)--Judetadeus (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)--Judetadeus (talk) 01:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] About Leonard Oprea, citation from: CEEOL - The Central And Eastern European Online Library

[edit] Warning! En Wikipedia anti-Romanian aggressions / message to International mass-media&Internet

Date: Jan 2, 2008 3:33 PM Subject: Warning ! En Wikipedia anti-Romanian aggressions / message to International mass-media&Internet To: arbcom-l@lists.wkimedia.org, info-en-q@wikimedia.org

Enough is enough: Please stop to ask: "citation needed" for "Leonard Oprea" article concerning: "…anti-communist dissident in Romania…" and "…officially forbade the publications of his writings, considering them subversive…" You had already the necessary and authorized "needed" citations (see the article and see the below excerpt). Leonard Oprea was an anti-communist dissident in Romania and two of his books were officially banned by Ceausescu's communist dictatorship. According to the many distinguished Romanian critics, today Leonard Oprea is a very important Romanian writer. This English Wikipedia board attitude could be considered an English Wikipedia anti-Romanian cultural discrimination and a pro-communist attack against Leonard Oprea. And this kind of attitude could be the subject to the Romanian mass-media and, to the international mass-media as well. Certainly, through Internet this subject could be spread worldwide. On the other side, please stop to "clean up" arbitrary and using methodically only the elimination way regarding the Leonard Oprea article ( like was the last editing which eliminated the "contents", eliminated the "citations needed", eliminated the "external" links and created an un-professional lay-out of the article). Thank you.

Excerpt: ,,Leonard Oprea was an anti-communist dissident[1] in Romania during Nicolae Ceauşescu's dictatorship. Between 1980 and 1987 he published a book and several short stories, which were honored with national literary prizes. After 1987, the Securitate (the secret police of the Communist regime), officially forbade[2] the publication of his writings, considering them subversive[3]. ________________________________ [edit] citations needed [1], [2], [3] - from authorized sources information:

  • Romanian Wikipedia - Leonard Oprea article
  • USA Congressional Record: "Human Rights in Romania", Vol. 136, Washington, Thursday, July 26, 1990, No.98; http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwcr.html
  • CEEOL Author List Romania/ The Central And Eastern European Online Library - Leonard Oprea, Romania, http://www.ceeol.com/aspx/authordetails.aspx?authorId=b74a386d-5a51-4466-ab2c-6156b2c5f90f
  • The Romanian National Daily Newspaper "Jurnalul Naţional"/ The National Journal/, January 8-9, 2005; the editorial: "O voce autentic diferită"/A Genuinely Different Voice/ by Vladimir Tismaneanu; http://www.jurnalul.ro
  • The Romanian National Weekly Literary Review "Romania literara"/ The Literary Romania/, July 13, 2007; the critical review: "Dumnezeu şi lumea de azi"/God and Today's world/, by Tudorel Urian; http://www.romlit.ro/
  • The Romanian National Monthly Cultural Review "Timpul"/ The Time/ February 2, 2005; the critical review: "Cămaşa de forţă – o poveste atroce din vremuri negre"/ The Straitjacket – an atrocious tale from dark times/ by Liviu Antonesei; http://www.timpul.ro/
  • The Critical References from the short-stories and novellas' volume, "Radiografia clipei"/ The x-ray of an instant/ and the novel, "Cămaşa de forţă"/ The Straitjacket/ both in the second edition published by Curtea Veche Publishing, 2003-2004, Bucharest, Romania; http://www.curteaveche.ro/
  • Gelu Vlaşin's foreword, "Fascinaţia dureroasa a Cămaşii de forţă"/ The Painful Fascination of the Straitjacket/, from the electronic edition of the novel "Cămaşa de forţă"/ The Straitjacket/, published by LiterNet Publishing House, 2005, Bucharest, Romania; http://editura.liternet.ro/carte/ "--Judetadeus (talk) 21:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Anti-Romanian? pro communist? give me a break that is ridiculous. The citations are not sufficient nor properly formated and the article needs clean up to meet quality standards. Both tags are justified and have nothing to do with Eastern European politics. Don't make ludicrous threats about the media attention this will receive. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll second that. Judetadeus, please calm down, there is no anti-Romanian cabal here, just some editors who are trying to help clean up this article. It really was in terrible shape, and it still is far from conforming to WP guidelines and policies, but hopefully getting there. If you would just assume good faith, per WP:AGF, and try to cooperate with fellow editors, who are spending quite a bit of time and energy on this article, we could probably make more progress, instead of wasting everybody's time. Thank you. Turgidson (talk) 02:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Please, help - to be edited correctly Leonard Oprea article!

Hi Tyrenius. I note that you put a note regarding verification of the article I mentioned from the paper Romania Literara. The first lines of that article are given below in Romanian: "Structural, Leonard Oprea face parte din familia adevăraţilor disidenţi, de tipul Corneliu Coposu sau Adam Michnik. Ca şi aceştia, a înfruntat regimul comunist, a avut curajul să spună despre negru că este negru atunci când toată lumea, din teamă sau oportunism, prefera să admită că este alb, a suportat anchetele barbare ale Securităţii, dar a păşit întotdeauna în viaţă cu zâmbetul pe buze, fără frustrări şi fără resentimente."

In free translation this text says as follows: "Structurally, Leonard Oprea belongs to the family of the true dissidents, of the type of Corneliu Coposu or Adam Michnik. Like them, he opposed the Communist regime and had the courage to say that black is black at the time when everybody, out of fear or opportunism, preferred to agree that it is white, he has suffered the barbaric Securitate questioning sessions, but has always paced through life with a smile on his lips, without frustrations and without grudges." --Sensei2004 (talk) 07:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tyrenius. A happy new year! I am not able to make the En Wikipedia standard corrections on Leonard Oprea article. If you can give a little help... thank you a lot. God bless! --Judetadeus (talk) 23:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The editors who have posted in the previous thread are doing a fine job and obviously understand wiki policies, so please direct questions to them. Tyrenius (talk) 06:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Few explanations for Judetadeus: Romanian Wikipedia or any site where "everyone can edit" is not a reliable source. Forget about it, you should come with better sources. Please provide a direct link to support the affirmations:
  1. Leonard Oprea was an anti-communist dissident in Romania during Nicolae Ceauşescu's dictatorship.
  2. After 1987, the Securitate (the secret police of the Communist regime), officially forbade the publication of his writings, considering them subversive.
For example, a link to "Jurnalul Naţional" is not helpful, but can be helpful a link to a specific article from "Jurnalul Naţional" where is discussed about Leonard Oprea.--MariusM (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2008 (UTC)