Talk:Lenni Brenner

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[edit] unsigned

I contacted Mr. Brenner directly and requested him for his authors bio, as well as informing him of my intention to post it here.--Uncle Bungle 04:19, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Brenner,

There is a popular online encyclopedia called wikipedia at http://www.wikipedia.org. I have come to rely on wikipedia for information regarding things I experience in day to day life.

After stumbling across your book "Zionism in the age of dictators", I looked you up on wikipedia and was suprised to find no information. I would like to remedy this. Do you, perhaps have an existing biography that I could read? Barring that, would you provide me with some general details of your life (city of birth, education, etc) and a list of works.

Yours sincerely

--name removed for privacy---

reply:

11 1 04 --first name--,

Thanks for writing me. Below is my author's 'blurb' or bio. Let me know if they accept it, or whatever you send them.

Stay well, give 'em hell,

Lenni --mr brenners email address removed for privacy---

Lenni Brenner was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. He became an atheist at 10, and a Marxist at 15, in 1952. His involvement with the Black civil...

I'm not going to readd the content until someone weighs in on it, hopefully someone replies soon

It's good to hear you've taken the time to contact Mr. Brenner. I'll add a notice to this effect in the article. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 08:56, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

As there doesn't seem to be any on-going issue with the copyright status of this material, and as it's not a standard notice (non-copy-vio?), I've removed it on the basis of it having served its purpose. I trust that's OK... Alai 15:59, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] criticism

No critique of the highly controversial Brenner at all? His books have NOT been favourably reviewed by any number of people claimng his anti-zionist tirades are neither scholastically accurate nor politically viable. Why not?

Here[1]is an article critical of Brenner, that hopefully someone can use to make this article better. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.203.130.11 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 20 December 2006.

I don't think that a forum post signed "Mikey" and qualifies as a reliable source. The post cites some sources though, if you can find any of them, please feel free to add relevant information. Thank you. --Uncle Bungle 21:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, this is a minor detail, but for the sake of encyclopaedic accuracy: I saw Lenni Brenner at a public meeting last night, and he said that he became an atheist when he was 10. In one of the official bios he wrote down 12, but then later he realised he was only 10, also confirmed by the e-mail quoted above. 86.53.38.23

[edit] Wiki non point of view

Brenner is very often cited as a proponent of New antisemitism. The entry's current status as a concise version of the [NB: very controversial] subject's self-submitted bio, as the original authorof this Wiki article writes in this discussion, must be supplemented. See wp:npov. --Shlishke (talk) 23:22, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

So some people say he is an anti-Semite, technically a member of those suffering from 'Jewish self-hatred'? I'm sure there are dozens of remarks to that effect on the net. Suffice it to find a WP:RS, i.e. an historian of standing who makes the charge and insert it, with due regard to WP:BLP guidelines. Any Jew critical of Zionism usually gets shovel-loads heaped on him/her. The article is by no means perfect. But the fact that some material on his life is sourced from his own declarations is not scandalous, and does not infringe WP:NPOV.Nishidani (talk) 09:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Who said anything--anything at all--about "Jewish self hatred" or saying he's an "anti-semite"? (Have you read histories of Zionism written early in the century by Jews?--they're calculating, sometimes brilliantly argued, and nasty, and no one has ever considered the authors self-hating Jews.)
It's actually quite revealing that the pointing out of the contemporary disputes re Zionism he has caused is immediately termed a supposed proof that that that implies he is an antisemite. A very happy strawman who never even was mentioned. But helpful when charging that, Oh, everytime a Jew is critical of Zionism, he is self-loathing; any non-Jew who does so is an anti-semite. Then those same people critical of Zionism can point to such overbearing criticism. ---Shlishke (talk) 19:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
A short lesson in logical entailment. You wrote:
'Brenner is very often cited as a proponent of New antisemitism.'
Antisemitism consists of hatred of Jews
Brenner is a Jew
Were he propounding antisemitism, he would be proposing that non-Jews hate him
Were he antisemitic, he would be a self-hating Jew
If people cite him as advocating antisemitism, they are suggesting he is a self-hating Jew.ertc.etc Nishidani (talk) 19:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Your logic has triumphed. It only remains to be seen that if sober, Wiki-observing material is added, you don't automatically reach for your delete button.--Shlishke (talk) 08:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
It is not my practice to delete 'sober, Wiki-observing material'. I delete edits made by people who don't appear to be sober when they make them.Nishidani (talk) 09:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I have removed the POV header for the simple reason that there has been no concrete illustration of where POV exists. It can only subsist, I presume, in the lack of a criticism of brenner section. But that is POV by absence of material. Brenner must have come in for a good bit of stick by competent critics, so we should look for this material, and list it.Nishidani (talk) 16:12, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I have eliminated the 'citation required' marks because this is not required for many other figures in Wiki: Cf. Efraim Karsh:

'He has published extensively on Middle Eastern affairs, Soviet foreign policy, and European neutrality, and is a founding editor of the scholarly journal Israel Affairs. He is a regular media commentator, has appeared on all the main radio and television networks in the United Kingdom and the United States, and has contributed articles to leading newspapers, including The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times,The Wall Street Journal, The Times (London) and The Daily Telegraph.'

Parity of treatment, intertextually, is usually a good principle to keep in mind. To require that an anti-Zionist critic's publication record be doubted, by the requirement that proof be given he has published where his bio.says he published articles, while ignoring that requirement for pro-Zionist authors, is an example of partiality. Or everyone, or no one.Nishidani (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)