Talk:Legio X Fretensis

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[edit] Founded by Caesar

  • From what I've read, the legion was founded by Julius Caesar in 61 B.C., and fought in Gaul and Caesar's Civil War. This article seems to be incorrect.--YankeeDoodle14 21:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
You are forgetting to add any source for your statements.--Panairjdde 20:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Dando-Collins's Caesar's Legion is my main source, however I also use Tactius, Caesar, and several others.
What are the references cited by Dando Collins? His book is known for including many factual inaccuracies. Furhtemore, when, exaclty, Tacitus, Caesar and "several others" (who) said the lagion was not named Fretensis?--Panairjdde 21:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you mean by inaccurasies? His sources include Caesar, Plutarch, Appian, Suetonius, Tactus, Dio, Josephus, Polybius, Pliny the Younger, and Acts. And none of them did say that the Tenth wasn't named "Fretensis", it's their lack of calling it that that is telling. Not one of them, to my knowlage anyway, ever called it "Fretensis". --YankeeDoodle14 21:33, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
And the fact that they did not call it Fretensis means it was not its name?--Panairjdde 22:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, any proof it was levied in 61 BC? --Panairjdde 23:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is proof. Dio compiled a list of all Roman legions with their official names, he didn't use the term "Fretensis". No author alive while the legion was still in it's prime used the term. Also, I am not a historian. I don't have records from the Roman Empire. I have to rely on authors such as Dando-Collins. --YankeeDoodle14 01:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so you just need to give me the pointer to Dio's list and a reference for the founding in 61 BC. Easy, right?--Panairjdde 08:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Quote from Suetonius, Tiberius Ch.4: "Tiberius' father Nero [not the emperor - Ed.], a quaestor, commanded Julius Caesar's fleet during the Alexandrian War and was largely responsible for his eventual victory. Caesar showed his appreciation by making Nero a priest, in substitution of Publius Scipio, and sent him to plant colonies in Gaul, including those of Narbo and Arelate." This establishes that the Narbonne base was established after Alexandria. In fact, some sources say it was originally raised from the Savoy region, but naturally included large numbers recruited from where ever possible. After a considerable campaign conquering France, investigating Britain and fending off Germany, Caesar then used this his favourite legion to trigger the Civil War by crossing the Rubicon stream contrary to Senate orders to disband is legions - it is here that the Equites joke was cracked, according to Suetonius (Julius Caesar ch.33). It then moved with him to Egypt, defeating Ptolomy after he had murdered Pompey (who was Caesar's son-in-law), then moving up into Syria and Pontus, and was settled in garrison there, protecting Caesar's rear and guarding the end of the Silk Road set up by Alexander the Great: it is at this point that Caesar established the Minervois, the area behind Narbonne where his old lags were settled. Following Caesar's murder, it was taken in hand by Mark Antony, ending up on the losing side after Actium. A second Xth Legion formed by Octavian in 41-40 BCE had served in Sicily, protecting Rome's grain supplies against Pompey, as marine troops, whence the Battle Honour Fretensis. It's more geographically likely that this force was the Xth found in the Balkans, and the two were later merged: Quirinius was its commander, as well as Syrian Prefect. One speciality the original legion had developed was a heavy engineering skill: these were the troops who first bridged the Rhine. They were later to use this skill in the quite remarkable siege building seen durign the Jewish War. They were also civil engineering suppliers: a large number of tiles have been found bearing the LXF stamp of the factory recently excavated at the Jerusalem Congress Centre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.65.146.96 (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Legio X → Legio X Fretensis – Legio X Fretensis was the original name. User:YankeeDoodle14 changed it, because "According to my [YankeeDoodle14] research, Fretensis was not the official name of the legion." Panairjdde

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support, as per nomination--Panairjdde 21:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, see compromise below. --YankeeDoodle14 21:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

What is your source for "Fretensis" being the origional name of the legion? --YankeeDoodle14 21:44, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The Notitia dignitatum, which gives a Praefectus legionis decimae Fretensis under the Dux Palaestinae in early 5th century [1]
  • Dabrowa, Edward, Legio X Fretensis A Prosopographical Study of its Officers (I-III c. A.D.)
  • countermarks of the legio (they were not made by soldiers, but by the legion officers) [2]
  • bricks used in constructions, marked by the legion "LXF" [3]
  • the reference for roman legions, Ritterling's "Legio" article:
    "On brick-stamps of the legion from Jerusalem there often appears above the name of the legion LEG X FR a picture of a ship, under the ship a boar (compilation of various examples CIL III p. 2314 no. 1415523 under the reference to pictures; see also Cagnat, Diction. d. Antiqu. III 1075 image 4428), and similar images can be seen on a die of L X F, that was used to mint coins of the city Sebaste in Samaria (Rev. archéol. N. S. XX 251-260 [see also Cagnat 1059 image 4405]"
and others archeological findings [4] [5].
As regards your sources, you are simply claiming it was not called Fretensis in some authors. Yet this shown nothing. You claim it was disbanded in 7th century: any proof?
First of all, most of those sources date to after the legion was no longer in any recognizable condition. As for those carvings found in Jerusalem, I repeat what I said before, they were made by members of the legion who may have just been using a popular nickname. Note that many 101st airborne troops refer to themselves as the Screaming Eagles, not the 101st. Oh, and I didn't say it was disbanded in the 7th century, I said that it MIGHT have ceased to exist. It's speculative for the most part, but since most Roman Legions stationed on the Byzantium eastern boarder in the 7th century were obliterated. IF the tenth still existed, it was almost certainly destroyed there. --YankeeDoodle14 01:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
What does "First of all, most of those sources date to after the legion was no longer in any recognizable condition" mean? Notitia Dignitatum, for one, is a 5th century document, and describes the civil and military officers of the Roman Empire, so it is as reliable and authoritative as your sources. The others are scholars who study the matter, and are as authoritative as yours. If the legion is widey known in modern scholarity as Fretensis, then we must use this name even if it was not its official name.
The bricks and the countermarks were issued by by legion officers, they were not graffiti on the walls by simple soldiers.
If the last record of the legion is in early 5th century, just write that and do not speculate on its end.
--Panairjdde 09:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Which one? It is used (maybe) for Julius Caesar's legion, which was disbanded. Later, two Tenth legions were formed, X Fretensis and X Gemina. Simply Tenth Legion is not sufficient, and the legion is widely known as X Fretensis.--Panairjdde 00:42, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
As I've said in the article, the Tenth of Caesar was the same one called "Fretensis", the confusion comes from the fact that most of the origional Tenth legion members retired, and thus some say that the Tenth "ceased to exist" then. However, new recruits were simply found to fill the vacant ranks. --YankeeDoodle14 01:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Since Caesar's Tenth (the Equestris) was disbanded and later reconstructed, the two legions can be cobnsidered, from one point of view, the same legion. However, its widely used name, the one adopted from 36 BC to 420s is Fretensis, and it should be tha name used in the article.--Panairjdde 09:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal for compromise

Since the whole matter seems to be if Caesar's Tenth legion became X Fretensis of X Gemina, why don't we create three articles, one for Fretensis, one for Gemina, and one for Caesar's Tenth (Tenth Legion, if you like)? The former articles will start with augustan reconstitution of the legions, while the latter will deal with Caesar's legion and the "succession problems".--Panairjdde 10:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Since it's clear that this'll just end in an edit war otherwise, that seems like the only real option here. --YankeeDoodle14 16:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, moved. The text for Caesar's legion is to be added to Tenth Legion, which Legio X redirects to.--Panairjdde 17:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment re: image showing remains of camp near Masada

Using Google Maps, it appears that the image of the camp remains shown in this article (I believe photographed from the fortress) has actually been reversed left to right, as a film slide might be.

I believe this to be the smaller camp perhaps 600 meters due East of the widest part of the fortress of Masada. In the overhead (satellite) view of this camp, a wadi (water drainage) is visible immediately South of the remains, almost right up the the Southern edge of the camp. Viewed from Masada, this wadi would appear on the *right* side of the camp, instead of the left.

Phil Brewer

[edit] I Suggest that Lucius Flavius Silva should be added as a notable commander

Silva was the commander that besieged Masada, he took over after Lucilius Bassus' illness in Judea. apparently Bassus is included as a notable commander yet Silva is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.14.222.49 (talk) 15:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC)