Talk:Leather subculture
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Kindly put new topics at the bottom.
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[edit] Relation of "leather subculture" to BDSM
I have put extensive work into clarifying the relationship of the "leather subculture" to BDSM in today's major edit, by drawing on Gayle Rubin's academic work on the subject. Once BDSM is properly represented as a part of the leather culture, rather than (as in the earlier version of this page) representing the whole, it turns out to be the part of this article that is most in need of expansion, clarification, and most of all, sources. And this work is badly needed since I notice that elsewhere in BDSM-related articles, links to "Old Guard" and "New Guard" leather point to this page---which has never really provided much sourced data on these topics.
I nonetheless hope that my clean-up, re-organization, and even only preliminary provision of sourced statements for this page brings it closer to meriting the B-grade that it currently has. Cheers to all.Dpmath (talk) 19:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New and Old Guard
In the article it says that the New Guard appeared in the 1990s. I am not an expert on this, so I doubt that I will rewrite anything, but I have read elsewhere that the New Guard appeared around the same time as the Old Guard, in the 1950's or 60's. That New Guard was in fact stricter than Old Guard in some ways, and came as a reaction to what some people saw as sloppiness of the older people. It is possible that I have got this all wrong, but I believe that I have read this. Can someone who knows more about this clarify things a bit, in the article or here in the comments? --Blue Elf 00:05, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I have read that the terms "Old Guard" and "New Guard" are revisionist misnomers. The article seems to imply some universality to these currently recognized subsets of gay male leather culture. There clearly was a gay male leather subculture in the 50s & 60s, but I've read it was largely underground, and the customs varied widely from group to group. The term "Old Guard" didn't widely achieve usage until the late 1970s. I will research and find some reliable sources on this. Nmwolfboy 20:35, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Connection with drag queens
I would like to hear more about the connection between drag queens and leather folk. Afterall, it was both who were arrested at Stonewall. According my older leathermen friends, their shared outsider status made them allies. --Tiger MarcROAR! 18:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] what does...
"An increasing number of pansexual clubs evolved as well." mean?--142.68.50.31 03:37, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sourcing
This, like it seems many wikipedia articles on sexual culture (whether LGBT, BDSM, or whatever) is atrociously speculative and uncited. Really now! Is leather, etc., some sort of obscure culture whose history has been transmitted only through word of mouth, that you have no choice but to make these things the sources for your encyclopedia article?
Come on! Users who wrote all these things about leather culture and its history, sociology, psychology, etc.: How the hell did you come to know this stuff? Did you just hear it from your roommate's cousin's boyfriend this one time, or did you read it from among the reams and reams of reputable essays on topics like this? (There's a museum dedicated to it, for Chrissakes!) If it really is the latter, why not just site it while you're making the contribution?67.85.178.110 08:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this page is WOEFULLY underdocumented. Much of it reflects the usual "hearsay" and mythos of the gay leather subculture---myths whose base in fact seems doubtful. I see a number of books and articles cited in the "Further Reading" section---I would hope that someone would read those, and other literatures, and do this topic the justice it deserves. I'd do it after tenure but I don't think it can or should wait that long. In the meantime, I've tried to clean up some of the information that belongs elsewhere (i.e., details regarding the movie and book "Cruising"; the hankie code) and to rewrite some of the claims so that they're perhaps just a little more plausible given the lack of documentation.Dpmath (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Bear community
Both articles are lacking source based descriptions of their common similarities and differences. --Nemissimo 17:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] RE: Goth subculture
Interesting new information relating leather to Goth subculture. The information deserves a subheading (or even sub-subheading) of its own, I think, rather than appearing only in the opening paragraph (which in any event should be kept very short and introductory, consistent with Wikipedia guidelines). And from what I can tell, this sub-subheading should probably come under the BDSM subheading. The information should also be sourced. If the contributor or someone else doesn't want to clean it up, I'll take it on in a few days. Also, I personally found the information on Goth as it stands is a little esoteric, could it be clarified a bit? Dpmath (talk) 04:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
