Talk:Lazar Kaganovich/Archive 1

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Contents 1 Famine-Genocide Deniers 2 On "Stalin (or Hitler) thought well, but.." 3 Kaganovich and Holodomor 4 "[B]ordering with the genocide"? 5 Marriage of Svetlana and Mikhail Kaganovich 6 Edit wars 7 Last name: Kaganovich vs Kogan 8 biography of Lazar Kaganovich 9 Poll on wording on Responsibility for Holodomor 9.1 Support Version 1 9.2 Support Version 2 9.3 Comments, discussions 10 Statement of the Kaganovich Family 11 Removed voted-out edits

Famine-Genocide Deniers

On the Internet, there exists Famine-Genocide Deniers Web Pages. It appears the goal of these Famine-Genocide Deniers Web Pages is to downplay and minimize the significance of this tragic event in Ukrainian History. They also glorify Joseph Stalin as a hero of the people. These pages also state how Joseph Stalin's reputation is allegedly malligned by anti-communist Ukrainians who allegedly have pro-Nazi leanings.

The purpose of this post is to expose people to this re-writing of Ukrainian History. Rastishka

As for revisionist attempts to portray genocidal "famine" as a "mistake" or whatever- http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/comfaq.htm#part5 I cant believe such a despicable agitprop -or, its loudspeakers, have the temerity to spew their bile here by distorting the truth. Mir Harven 15:21, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On "Stalin (or Hitler) thought well, but.."

There is no need to pretend that Dallin (accomplished Soviet propagandist, as seen in his story on Russia in WW2) oe Alec Nove (a minor figure) are motivated by anything else than a cover-up of Stalin and his policies. As for Lewin, his motives spring principally from Jewish concerns (rather than ideological), because forced collectivization is not infrequently portrayed as some sort of Jewish genocide over Ukrainians (by the way- there is no reason this discussion is going here, on the page on Kaganovich, since he was only Stalin's lapdog. The entire thing was decided and organized by Stalin, and not any of his puppets (Molotov, Kaganovich, Kalinin, ..). As far as one can see- all authorities on Soviet history and Communism (Pipes, Conquest, Medvedev, Kolakowski, Landauer, ...) agree on the following points: a) the collectivization was an act aimed at eradication of the entire class ("kulaks", but it was essentially peasants). If not confined completely to one ethnic group or nation, is is neverthless, upon examining its course, a democide (better word than just a genocide). b) its crucial element (and not a side effect) was genocidal policy towards Ukrainians, since Russian-populated rural areas were not nearly hit as those inhabited by other nations, especially Ukrainians and Kazakhs. More, Russians had been settled in various countries cleansed form Kazakhs and Ukrainians by famine (villages and hamlets whose Ukrainian inhabitants were starved to death), therefore changing ethnic structure in the way that benefitted Russian ethno-territorial expansion. Many formerly Ukrainian districts and counties became ethnically Russian-a not a single distric or strip of the land changed its ethnic composition the other way around (Russian to Ukrainian).

The role of Jewish party members is a matter of dispute. While they did not engineer the policy, their zeal in pursuing it, complete absence of dissent during the event and later efforts of cover-up beg some unpleasant questions on the degree of Russian Jewish complicity in this affair (although the champions who fought for truth later included prominent figures of Jewish extraction, like Vassily Grossman and Pipes). As it is now, complex question of the scope and profile of Russian (and Ukrainian, Lithuanian,..) Jewish involvement in Communist terrorist activities is still not resolved.

Be as it may, the issue of Holodomor is downplayed mostly by Soviet apologists and, interestingly enough, a part of Jewish political analysts who try, somehow, to minimize ethnic/national dimension of the mass murder. Therefore incessant drumming about Ukrainian participation in the Holocaust- and simultneous efforts that aim both at downplaying the scope and horror of the Holodomor, as well as the scope of Jewish participation in it- which can be interpreted as Jewish chauvinist quasi-revenge attack on Ukrainians (historically, one can go as far back as the 17th century and Bogdan Khmelnitzky massacres). The "doubt" about collectivization aims is virtually the same as the revisionist questioning of Hitler's genocidal plans agains Jews and various Slavs. Some Jewish chauvinists (of various affiliations- they include not only Communist sympathizers but also media moguls who are bound with Holodomor deniers in anti-Ukrainian bias) are shamefully involved in this nefarious propagandist warfare. The tactic is simple- portray others as exclusive perpertators and yourself as pure and untainted victim. Well- life is, unfortuantely, a more complex affair.

Anyway- it's better to put the Holodomor issue at Stalin's doorstep since Kaganovich was only a zealous executor. Mir Harven 08:52, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, your personal views on the matter notwithstanding, differing opinions on historically controversial matters such as this must be represented. Everyking 11:32, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK, but with "appropriate" statistical weight, so to speak. Mir Harven 13:53, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bunch of crap, Everyking. Try expressing a differing opinion on aspartame or fluoridation — even if it's a prevalent opinion in Europe. Try pointing out the embarassing parts of Nazi history, like backing by well-known Americans. Try pointing out the lack of evidence of a Serb-run genocide in Kosovo. Try pointing out an instance of how the US fakes crimes by l'ennemi du jour. Look at the treatment Germany Must Perish! got.

WP enforces as much fashionable bias on the hard stuff as everyplace place. Kwantus 03:43, 2005 Jan 17 (UTC)

"The role of Jewish party members is a matter of dispute. While they did not engineer the policy, their zeal in pursuing it, complete absence of dissent during the event and later efforts of cover-up beg some unpleasant questions on the degree of Russian Jewish complicity in this affair "

Take this POV nonsense elsewhere, please. This is not a place to promote the "Jewish communists killed Ukrainian peasants" propaganda now prevalent in Russia and Ukraine. The zeal of Jewish Communist party members was neither greater nor less than the zeal of Russian Communists like Voroshilov or Molotov, Georgians like Stalin, Ordzhonikidze or Beria, or Ukrainians like Khrushev. They all gave up their ethnic identity and religious backgrounds in order to become "true communists". And the actions leading to the famine were carried out by thousands of smaller party members, officers, soldiers etc. vast majority if whom were Russians and Ukrainians. It's time to stop using Wikipedia as a mean to promote one's own bigoted views.

Kaganovich and Holodomor

Kaganovich was the first secretary of Communist Party of Ukraine in 1925-1928. Since 1928 he was the first secretary of Moscow Obcom.

The collectivization started in 1929, Holodomor was in 1930-1932. Kaganovich at that time was busy with the Moscow problems and have no day-to-day control over Ukraine. For one week in 1930 he went to Kiev (together with Molotov) and participated in the All-Ukrainian conference of the Communist Party. They made their speeches encouraging the murderous politics of collectivization (who did not). He is certainly guilty (as all these Polibyuro members), but I do not see why he should be singled out as the person engineering the Holodomor. Stalin is certainly qualified, Kosyor and Postyshev probably too. I do not see why Kaganovich qualifies. In all the long Conquest's book (Russian text on http://www.fictionbook.ru/author/konkvest_robert/jatva_skorbi/konkvest_jatva_skorbi.html) Kaganovich is mentioned 7 times. If he was the person responsible he would be mentioned much more.

The number of victims of Holodomor was discussed on Holodomor article. The demographic data show 4-6.5 mlns of population loss (including unborn children), the official registration of deaths data show 1.5 mln excess deaths but the data is certainly under-reported. All data is for the whole Soviet Union (including Kazakhstan, Cuban, Volga region, then Russian Crimea). Thus, we can safely say millions of victims. It is a colossal tragedy by itself, no need to exaggerate it. If you have other sources showing other info please argue it o Holodomor first, no need to argue it in mutiple places. abakharev 00:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Once again the exact numbers for the Holodomor victims are hotly debated, but 7-10 millions in the Ukraine seems to be on a higher side. All the info before the Soviet archives were opened (i.e. 1990ies) is a wild guess. Estimations of serious people give the following:

• Stephen Wheatcroft and R.W Davies, The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933 6..6.5 mln over the whole Soviet Union,
• Stanislav Kulchytsky, "How many of us perished in Holodomor in 1933" 5..6 mln on Ukraine
• "Demographic catastrophes of the 20th century", a chapter from Demographic Modernization in Russia 1900–2000, ed. A. G. Vishnevsky, 2006 4..5 mln over whole SU

etc.

Neither of these researchers are stalinist apologists. The stalinists of course deny the catastrophical famine entirely or put the numbers in thousands, not millions, explaining it by natural weather conditions, etc. If you have better and more reliable references, please put them and argue them on the Holodomor article. So far I propose to just say millions without stating the concrete number as a fact.

The same way intentions to kill the self-sufficient peasantry is not a fact but a speculation. The self-sufficiency was broken by the collectivization. Stalin did not need to kill his own serfs and if he wanted he had an elaborate system of labor camps to do the job for him. abakharev 04:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the image, Rastishka. It nicely settles our dispute. Please check that the correct copyright tag is provided (if in doubt please contact me, I will try to invent something). abakharev 07:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Rastishka, stop changing the article to that silly biased version. Again, these claims are debatable and are not facts:

• The famine killed 7-10 million Ukrainians.
• The famine was an intentional act of genocide.
• That Kaganovich was personally responsible for intentionally killing millions and so "was one of the worst mass murderers in history" (this quote is directly copy and pasted from such anti-Semetic sites as jewwatch.com).

You have to be neutral here and if you continue changing it, I will report you. YMB29

Everybody, especially Rastishka. Please do not create a WP:POVFORK here of the Holodomor article. If you argue the factual information about this catastrophe there, not here. Here we only discuss the biography of a second-rate (after 1939 a third-rate and after 1956 - nobody) Soviet politician. abakharev 01:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Alex Bakharev my communist friend, you would not dare say these things on the holocaust page, you would be banished in seconds... yet you feel free here to spew your genocide denial on the little known Ukrainian holocaust, yet there is more proof of it happening than any other holocausts in history.

Yours,

Rastishka

This comment kind of proves my earlier opinion on Rastishka. YMB29

I'm reverting the edits made by User:Rastishka. The way it was before is a more neutral interpretation. These edits seem to be based more on a personal grievance and bitterness than a desire to educate. Greg 22:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice one Greg, you can't refute the message so you refute the messenger.

Yours,

Rastishka

Lets have this straight, you did not provided a single validation document confirming your edits (see WP:V) and violated half a dozen of policies of Wikipedia. Until you either provide source for your edits and as well as convince the other editors that their sources are flawed or find a compromise, your edits will be reverted as violating WP:V and WP:NPOV policies. If you would not obey the rules of Wikipedia, you will be blocked for progressively longer periods of time. I am sorry about it, but so is life abakharev 10:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

OH, I am sorry... Please tell me how do I make validation off my brain and/or A Level in history? Well if a communist apologist edit can not be seen as flawed all is useless. But anyways enjoy throwing your weight around.

Yours,

Rastishka

Rastishka, I'm perfectly willing to believe that the famine was a deliberate act of genocide if the evidence (which you say there is a great deal of) is provided. Reference a book, a website, SOMETHING that tells us that the Holodomor was a deliberate act rather than an enormous and catastrophic case of mismanagement and bad planning. We want to work with you, but meet us halfway. Nobody is going to accept such strong statements with no substantive evidence. Would you? TheQuandry 15:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You validate your information by citing your references (as I mentioned above), which is a skill we all learned as teenagers in school. Come on. You're just being difficult. ..Greg.. TheQuandry 00:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Great references you got... some Russian language page which even has his date of death wrong. I made most of this Lazar Kogan page, you should cite your references before you change it with communist apologist views.

Yours,

Rastishka

1) Which is better? A reference that lists an incorrect date of death or making biased, unsubstantiated claims with NO references?

2) You're full of it when you say you created most of this article. It has existed since 2003, and I don't begin to see your name until last March.

3) How do you know his birth name was Kogan? The only websites I can find that say this are right-wing propaganda and Jewish world conspiracy sites. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. If so, please point me in the right direction.

4) People tire of your ad hominem attacks, calling everyone who disagrees with you "communist apologist". Do you think anyone will want to listen to you when you respond to a debate with childish name-calling? TheQuandry 16:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this is his source: http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-kaganovich.html#kaganovichbio1 YMB29

1) incorrect date of death is just one of many errors if you could even read Russian. It's a bit of an oxymoron you say i have NO references, yet many times like here you say my reference is jewwatch.

2) Yes I created most of this article.

3) How do I know his birth name was Kogan? Anyone with basic knowledge of Russian history knows Russian Jews changed their names in communism aka Bronstein became Trotski, Goldstein became Voldarski, Solomon became Sverdlov, Rosenfeld became Kamenev, need i go on?

4) Check your history you been doing your fair share of your ad hominem attacks. Do you think anyone will want to listen to you when you respond to a debate with childish name-calling?

Yours,

Rastishka

You're just trying to goad people into flame wars. Do as you will, it's nothing to me and I'm through trying to communicate with you. TheQuandry 21:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

No. Not at all. I'm trying to show people the truth, be it politically incorrect or not.

Yours,

Rastishka

Lazar Moiseivich Kaganovich's last name was always Kaganovich, as that was his father's last name, and it was never Kogan.

"[B]ordering with the genocide"?

Can someone explain the meaning of the following passage:

Where he was one of the leaders of fighting against the local Muslim rebels (basmaches) and the following punitive expeditions bordering with the genocide of the local populations.

It seems to be recent. Thanks. --TJive 04:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Marriage of Svetlana and Mikhail Kaganovich

• The story seems strange, usually the biographers of Svetlana Alliluyeva (including her own memoirs) include only three marriages to Grigory Morozov (and before the famous affair with the film director Alexei Kapler), to Yury Zhdanov (son of Andrei Zhdanov) and the Indian Brajesh Singh. Never hered about this 2.5th marriage before abakharev 07:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that's what I thought, but it is Time magazine. Unless it's an online misprint/mistake, or it was some kind of unexplained Stalin political ploy that never followed through, it's hard to refute such a credible source. TheQuandry 08:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

TIME Magazine is 100% wrong. There was no marriage between Kaganovich's son and Stalin's daughter. Further, the son was named Joseph, not Mikhail. The article also calls Stalin Kaganovich's brother in law, and that is also entirely incorrect.

Edit wars

This person editing under the IP address 82.33.32.160 is probably just User:Rastishka perpetuating his "evil communist Jews" nonsense. I also think that User:JohnHustings is a sockpuppet of User:Rastishka, or vice versa. Rastishka backed up John Hustings on an uploaded image with no citation, and then actually signed his name as John Hustings before quickly editing it to just say "Rastishka". TheQuandry 22:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice theory you got going there but anyways... to answer your last question and copy and pasted the 'User:Sebbeng|TheQuandry' and simply forgot to change both names

Yours

Rastishka

I am reporting you for deliberately cross-linking my user page with your signature. TheQuandry 01:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• hides in fear* oops wait, I stopped being afraid of cry babies years ago

Yours,

Rastishka

I had a look at this JohnHustings you was talking(obessing)about and I seen you been stalking him too, I will report you now

Yours,

Rastishka

Actually, I'm right. I see that your IP address IS 82.33.32.160 TheQuandry 01:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Rastishka/Saintrotter has, thankfuly, now been blocked.--Far of tip of the town. 08:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Last name: Kaganovich vs Kogan

The source provided only states that Ashkenazi people may be related to Sehpardic Jews. It doesn't mean that Kaganovich's last name was Kogan. TheQuandry 23:08, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

biography of Lazar Kaganovich

a Nice read from a fascinating book for those who deny Kaganovich is one of the worst mass murderers in history and edit it my post defending him. Maybe some information can be added to the page?

Lazar Kaganovich, one of the bloodiest of the communist butchers during the 1930s and 1940s and the number-two man in the Kremlin for many years.

The book is The Wolf of the Kremlin, and it was written by Stuart Kahan, an American Jew who is Kaganovich's nephew. Kahan went to the Soviet Union in 1981 and interviewed his uncle extensively -- in Yiddish -- to write this biography, and it is a goldmine of revelations.

To sum it up, Lazar Kaganovich was a Jew raised in the Jewish tradition, a yeshiva boy taught to guide himself on the basis of doing always what is best for the Jews, and this precept actually is cited explicitly several times in the book. He attended his first Communist Party meeting in 1911, when he was 18, to hear the Jewish communist Trotsky give a speech in a synagogue in Kiev; that's right: in a synagogue. He rose rapidly in the inner circle of the Communist Party. His success was due primarily to his aggressiveness and his ruthlessness. In his communist activity he held back from nothing, no matter how brutal or bloody. He even killed his fellow Jews when they got in his way. He was a gangster among gangsters.

In 1930 Kaganovich organized a special department of the Soviet secret police, with himself as the head. It was referred to as the department of "wet affairs," with "wet" meaning "bloody." That is, it handled clandestine mass executions, of the sort carried out later at Vinnitsa in Ukraine and at Katyn in Russia and at a thousand other places throughout the Soviet Union over the next two decades. Kaganovich became the commissar in charge of mass murder. Yet when the German Army invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, it was Kaganovich who was the savior of the Jews: he arranged for the evacuation of all Jews from the frontier areas and their resettlement far to the east, where they would be safe from the Germans. Let the Ukrainians and the Russians bear the brunt of the German invasion, but protect the Jews from hardship and danger at any cost.

When the Gentile communist Nikita Khruschev accused Kaganovich in 1957 at a Soviet Party Congress of having murdered 20 million Russians during his career, Kaganovich didn't even deny it. He only accused Khruschev of being a murderer too. "Your hands are blood-stained too," Kaganovich told him. Khruschev pointed out that the difference was that he, Khruschev, had merely followed Kaganovich's orders, while it had been Kaganovich who had formulated the policies of mass murder and had given the orders for carrying out those policies.

As I said, it's a fascinating book, this biography of Lazar Kaganovich, and if you really want to gain some insight into his mentality, you should read it for yourself.

Kaganovich wants to boast about the power he once held, and at the same time he wants to evade responsibility for his crimes, and one can see this ambivalent attitude throughout the book.

Yours,

Rastishka

• Read also Statement of the Kaganovich's family. The book is a fiction written by a guy who never met Lazar. Tomorrow I will proclaim myself to be a nephew of Trotsky or Hess and will sell even more facinated manuscripts "dictated" by my "uncle".

OH yes the "close relatives of the late Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich" are right, this Angelic man (Lazar) was nothing like what Stuart Kahan wrote. I am sorry.

Yours,

Rastishka

The Stuart Kahan penned "biography" is universally considered by any legitimate historian to be a complete fiction. Kaganovich spoke no English, Kahan spoke no Russian, and neither one of them spoke Yiddish or any other language, so how did they communicate with each other? This is just one of the ways that Kahan was shown to be a fraud. Your "sources" haven't improved over the anti-semitic websites you were using before.

Just because the names Kaganovich and Kogan are considered to be related at some point in the past does NOT mean that L.M.K's last name was KOGAN, any more than it was Kahan or Cohen or ELVIS PRESLEY for that matter. You can't provide any evidence that the famine was a deliberate genocidal act rather than simple mismanagement and poor planning. You CAN'T PROVE that Kaganovich was "ethnically" Jewish. Just because the man "looks like he's Azkenazi" (which may or may not be related to Sephardic Jews) doesn't meake him so. Yet you continue to edit war with these biased, unsubstantiated versions. TheQuandry 01:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I think the comment copied and pasted from above says it best: "Take this POV nonsense elsewhere, please. This is not a place to promote the "Jewish communists killed Ukrainian peasants" propaganda now prevalent in Russia and Ukraine. The zeal of Jewish Communist party members was neither greater nor less than the zeal of Russian Communists like Voroshilov or Molotov, Georgians like Stalin, Ordzhonikidze or Beria, or Ukrainians like Khrushev. They all gave up their ethnic identity and religious backgrounds in order to become "true communists". And the actions leading to the famine were carried out by thousands of smaller party members, officers, soldiers etc. vast majority if whom were Russians and Ukrainians. It's time to stop using Wikipedia as a mean to promote one's own bigoted views."

"It's time to stop using Wikipedia as a mean to promote one's own bigoted views" But where will you communist apologists hang out? You're nice and safe here in your power and numbers

Yours,

Rastishka

Poll on wording on Responsibility for Holodomor

Statement of the Kaganovich Family

Doing some research I have found the 'Statement of the Kaganovich Family' to be on many pro-communist and communist apologist sites, aka http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/kagan.html

Yours,

Rastishka

It also appeared in Nedelya, a Russian newspaper. Is that also "communist apologist"? You're engaging in edit wars again. Continuing to do so after you've been proven wrong only makes you lose what little credibility you still have. I encourage you to be a man about it, accept that you've lost the argument and quit trying to nit pick. YES, Stuart Kahan is Jewish. Congratulations on being correct on one point. TheQuandry 04:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed voted-out edits

I reverted Lazar Kaganovich to delete edits that were voted-out by consensus, and then re-added by a user. The religion of someone who wrote a book about a Soviet bureaucrat is irrelevant to the topic. TheQuandry 02:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)