Talk:Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

⚖
Law Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.
High This article has been assessed as High-importance on the assessment scale.
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Wales, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Wales on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
England Portal
This article is supported by WikiProject England, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to articles relating to England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article associated with this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Rename?

When have these acts been called the Act of Union 1536 and Act of Union 1543? When I studied the subject we referred to the 1543 act as the "Laws in Wales Act". Are these the legal names of the measures? If not, where do these names come from. They are *like* the later acts of union but it is anachronistic (surely) to apply the later term to the earlier act? Francis Davey 5 July 2005 20:44 (UTC)

The article itself states 'The Acts were not known as the "Acts of Union" until 1801, when historian Owen Edwards assigned them that name'. There may be an Interpretation Act that gives them the short names 'The Laws in Wales Act 1535' and 'The Laws in Wales Act 1542', but I guess legally they are 27 Hen. 8 c26. and 34 & 35 Hen. 8 c26. Owain 6 July 2005 19:10 (UTC)

[edit] Repeal?

Has this Act of Union repealed? I don't think so, Wales is still part of the UK... some aprts may have been rendered ineffective, but the majority of the Act is still in force, surely? (Some IP address Aug 2004) I'm inclined to agree, and will mak the change until someone more authoratative can change it back. Rich Farmbrough 09:34, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Acts have been repealed. The Welsh Language Act 1993 explicitly repealed both the Act of Union 1536 and the Act of Union 1543 (known formally as the Laws in Wales Acts), "so far as unrepealed", with the exception of section 47 of the 1543 Act. Section 47, the only clause still in force, states that if stolen goods or cattle are sold at market in Wales, the sale doesn't change the lawful ownership of the property. Repeal didn't change Wales' status as part of the UK - remember that, before the Act of Union 1536, Wales was still a Dominion of the Realm. The effect of the Acts was to incorporate the Dominion, Principality and Country of Wales into the English administrative and judicial system, not to unite a previously independent country with England. James Groves 00:13, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In any case, the legal rule applied to such legislation is 'expressio unius est exclusio alterius' - that not expressingly stated is not affected. Owain 19:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Language and Focus

The section "the Welsh farmers of remoter districts found themselves adrift in amidst a legal and economic system whose language and focus were unfamiliar to them." seems a little dubious perhaps NPOV. Since the 13thC many of the King officials would have been opperating in French for legal/government matters in Wales [only slowly moving to English]. Much of this administration would have been so distant as to never involve a remote rural farmer so the distinction drawn seems stronger than the reality.Alci12

Maybe. But you should have seen the bias that was there before I revised it! I just tried to keep the same content but fix the POV. Doops | talk 19:49, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Along the same lines, the page at present states: ...some historians are increasingly arguing that "absorption" or even "colonization" are more accurate. Surely "colonization" is almost the opposite of "absorption"? This seems illogical. Doops | talk 06:03, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes I did think that a very odd statement. England had ruled Wales for 300 years before these acts, and there was no influx of English population. All we have is a high level reorganisation of the mechanics of government. Colonization seems the wrong word entirely. You could, perhaps, say annexation or absorption. After all Wales was going from a Royal fief to part of the English state.
In the literal sense of the word (which would imply English people setting out to live there), I have no idea how much colonization of Wales occurred over the years; but the article on Little England beyond Wales seems to imply it was a mediaeval phenomenon — certainly not something started by these acts. Furthermore, the new and sloppy sense in which everybody uses "colonialism" now (the use which doesn't have anything to do with settlers but simply is applied when one country interests itself imperiously in another's business while keeping it at arm's length) doesn't at all apply here, since Wales became an integral part of England. Doops | talk 19:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

This page was moved to Laws in Wales Acts 1535-1542 from Acts of Union 1536-1543 by Owain on 25 Nov 2005 without any discussion. I'm going to move it back. If you want to move something, a {{move}} or {{mergeto}} tag should be inserted and it should be discussed. --JW1805 (Talk) 21:57, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Um, JW, it doesn't appear that you've moved it back. Rather, you seem to have done a cut-and-paste. Is there a reason? Doops | talk 22:24, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

There is no such Act of Parliament as the "Act of Union 1536" or "Act of Union 1543". The Acts are called the "Laws in Wales Act 1535" and "Laws in Wales Act 1542". Quite why you have moved the correctly-titled page back to an incorrect name baffles me. You have also screwed-up the ability for it to be simply moved back to it's correct title using the move facility, thereby forcing me to do a horrible cut/paste job to restore it. Thankfully, that's where all the edit history is, so it's not the end of the world. Owain 10:07, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if you would like to discuss why it should be moved AWAY from the correct title, then please do, although bear in mind that other articles about Acts of Parliament use their correct short title. If people want to search for nicknames such as "Act of Union 1536" then they are able to, as that redirect exists, and points the reader to the correctly-named page. Owain 10:23, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
  • This article existed for two years as Acts of Union 1536-1543. It was moved with no discussion whatsoever. Please stop moving it until we have a discussion. Wikipedia article titles are based on the most commonly used name. There are only 28 Google hits for "Law in Wales Act". ""Act of Union 1536" has 951. "Acts of Union 1536-1543" has 667. --JW1805 (Talk) 15:18, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
As you well know, just because something is repeated doesn't make it right! Is this an encyclopaedia or not? I have no problem with #REDIRECT pages from "commonly used names" but the article itself should be on the page with the correct name! The google test just proves that the erroneously-titled Wikipedia article has been replicated elsewhere! Owain 16:20, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Absolutely, and google hits are notoriously fickle. The point is a phrase like "Theft Act 1968" is not chosen arbitrarily. Either the name is given in the act (possibly as amended), in the Short Titles Act or in the Chronological Table of Statutes. As the Laws in Wales Act XXXX it has been known to lawyers and historians for a considerable time. It may be that there is a school that likes (for propaganda reasons) to call them acts of union, though they aren't in the sense that the real Acts of Union are. Francis Davey 19:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

I am proposing that this page be moved back to Acts of Union 1536-1543, which was the title for two years, and is the most commonly used term (see comments above). --JW1805 (Talk) 15:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Support my nom. --JW1805 (Talk) 15:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Could you cite sources for the term please. Francis Davey 11:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Short History of Wales by Owen M. Edwards - this is what is referred to in the article. --JW1805 (Talk) 22:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose there is no such Act of Parliament as the "Act of Union 1536" or "Act of Union 1543". What are being referred to here are two acts - 27 Henry VIII c. 26 and 34 and 35 Henry VIII c. 26, which have been assigned the short titles "Laws in Wales Act 1535" and "Laws in Wales Act 1542". See http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1993/Ukpga_19930038_en_6.htm
And I think, though my research isn't extensive, that the names are from the Chronological Table of Statutes. Francis Davey 11:42, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Neutral. But if there is no change, why not make the first sentence read something like "The Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542, often called the Acts of Union 1536-1543, were a series of parliamentary measures by which the legal system..." or vice versa if the renaming passes? LuiKhuntek 08:15, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose there is a standard way in which acts of the UK (and its predecessor) Parliaments are cited in scholarly usage. The Laws in Wales Act XXXX is the universally preferred form amongst lawyers, constitutional historians and is consistent with the way in which names are assigned to statutes throughout wikipedia. It may be that, for literary or propaganda purposes, one or more historians or writers have called them "Acts of Union", but no more do we refer to the (present) prime minister as Bliar, just because that was a popular name amongst his opponents. Most importantly, they *aren't* like the other acts of union, to describe them as so is not NPOV. Whereas they are unarguably acts about laws in Wales. Francis Davey 11:25, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Result

Not moved. Eugene van der Pijll 20:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

"a single legal jurisdiction, which is frequently referred to as England and Wales." - should read as "by extending the single legal jurisdiction of England, more recently this state is referred to as England and Wales.". The Welsh revolution is coming like the force of a mighty dripping tap! -- Pbhj 03:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

incidentally there have been a couple of letters in The Times of London recently, see letters for edition of 18 August 2007, "A Welsh Dimension" (which includes reference to other letter).

[edit] Date of formation of the United Kingdom?

After much debate, the editors of the United Kingdom article seem to have settled on 1707 as being the foundation of the state (I note with concern though that this date lacks any external referencing, per official Wikipedia policy WP:VERIFY).

But this article - List of countries by formation dates - claims that the UK was actually founded in 1603 (again, completely unreferenced). Both articles cannot be correct, so which is it? Please come to the party armed with some proper external refs, because I am not sure if we can stomach yet another verbally diarrhetic Talk page splurge with largely consists of ad hominem attacks and statements of totally unsourced opinion. --Mais oui! (talk) 23:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

1603 is an error. England and Scotland come under the same personal rule of the sovereign James I (and VI of Scotland) in that year but the explicit Act of Union is indeed 1707. The United Kingdom can only be dated from that year.Jatrius (talk) 10:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Technically both 1603 and 1707 are wrong. 1603 was indeed only the union of the crowns. 1st May 1701 was the creation of the Kingdom of Great Britain; uniting the kingdoms of England (with Wales) and Scotland into one kingdom. The phrase "united Kingdom" is used in the Acts of Union but only descriptively; the name of the new state was explicitly "Great Britain".
The United Kingdom was created on 1st January 1801; a new union uniting the kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland into one, which was then called "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland". (Not a snappy name, but the Georgians believed in the grandeur of long titles.)
Howard Alexander (talk) 13:14, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
One wonders how much the UK is a union and how much it's actually a single state. Scotland may have a separate legal system, but its legislature is in Westminster which tolerates some lawmaking at Holyrood. For all the euphemistic language, it would seem that the 16th century acts abolished Wales and made it part of England. One wonders if Wales has any legal standing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.57.113 (talk) 13:01, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
You are quite right. The Acts of Union were complete incorporating unions; in 1707 the Kingdoms of England and Scotland were "united into one kingdom", not just tagged along together. England and Scotland were gone, unless as geographical expressions. (The Act even referred to "that part of the united Kingdom now called Scotland".) The 1800 Act had identical wording abolishing Great Britain and Ireland. There is no euphemistic wording there. I have not read the Laws in Wales Acts for a while though to be sure of that wording. In any case "the Dominium of Wales" was part of the Kingdom of England merged into a single Prydain Fawr 301 years ago.
This is all uncomfortable for English nationalists and Scots nationalists if they take it politically, but nothing stops them being particular about their geographical areas if they wish. Personally I feel just as much at home in Caernarfon, Kent, Caithness or Carrickfergus.
Howard Alexander (talk) 13:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)