User talk:Latouffedisco/Sandbox

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Here you are. Jeff Strasser, Pierre Aubameyang Matthew_hk tc 10:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Jamal Alioui, Leandro Cufré Matthew_hk tc 04:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the creator of the List of foreign Serie A players and I'd like to collaborate with you to this list. If you provide me some sources I can help! P.S.: leave RSSSF, it's full of errors and it's very incomplete. --necronudist 10:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

*Somlai Stolzparth (1932-34 Nice, 1935-36 Alès, 1936-37 Red Star pour Barreaud) (pas de Stolzparth en D1 à Alès en 35-36 et ne figure pas dans la liste des joueurs du Red Star de l'ouvrage "Red Star, histoire d'un siècle): He's Rezső Somlai (born Stolzparth), played 1934 World Cup for Hungary, 1932-34 Nice, 1935-36 Alès. --necronudist (talk) 20:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

*Gejza Kalocsay, international tchèque (1937-39 Lille) (OK): Géza Kalocsay/Kalocsai, born in Hungary, 3/0 with Czechoslovakia, 2/0 with Hungary. 1937-39 Lille (don't know if he played in 1938-39). --necronudist (talk) 20:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Ramon Zabalo

AFAIK he played for Racing Paris 'til 1944... Have you got his year-by-year stats (matches and goals) please? --necronudist (talk) 10:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unknowns

* Velijko Aleksic – AS Angoulême – 1969-70 (from Yugoslavia): brother of Rajko, played for Yugoslavia A-B-U19, 1968-69 Vojvodina.

* Slobodan Alempijevic – RC Paris, FC Sète – 1946-47, 1949-50 (from Yugoslavia): Yugoslav.

* Salih Durkalic – Sochaux – 1979-81 (from Yugoslavia): born in Yugoslavia, 1978-79 Kortrijk (BEL).

* Branisla Kostic – Laval – 1976-77 (from Yugoslavia): Branislav, born in Yugoslavia.

* Pavel Makar – Nîmes Olympique – 1950-51 (from USSR): Pavel Makarov, known in France as Paul Makar, probabily Soviet, 1948-49 Chelmsford City (ENG)

* Ostap Stekiv – Nice – 1948-50 (from USSR): Ostap Steckiw, Ukraine-born Canadian international.

* Wladimir Tisma – Monaco – 1961-62 (from Yugoslavia): Vladimir Tisma, born in Yugoslavia.

--necronudist (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Done!Thanks!--Latouffedisco (talk) 11:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I've found nothing about Max Sellal but I wonder if he is a pied-noir (French colon in Algeria)...--Latouffedisco (talk) 14:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, nevermind. --necronudist (talk) 16:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Franz Cisar

Do you where he was born? (city) --necronudist (talk) 09:10, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Hum, I've searched the internet and my books...His place of birth seems quite unfoundable, at least in France...Maybe in Austria??I hope so...Sorry and best regards.--Latouffedisco (talk) 07:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you :-) --necronudist (talk) 07:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Players above are doubtful

[edit] Argentina

  • Branca (1935-36 RC Paris)
  • Castro (1937-38 RC Roubaix)
  • Carlos Puga (1932-33 FC Sète)
  • Rizzo (1938-39 Excelsior Roubaix)

[edit] Austria

  • Albrecht 1936-37 FC Metz)
  • Fritz Bauer (1934-37 RC Strasbourg) (Français?=Ernest Bauer)
  • Charles Borsenberger (1932-33 RC Paris) [1] Français?

*Heinrich Grunbaum (1935-36 Antibes)

  • Grunfeld (1935-36 Mulhouse)
  • Kassmeyer (1934-35 RC Paris)
  • Kastl (ou peut-être Raftl) (1933-34 AS Cannes)
  • Kaufmann (1933-34 FC Sochaux, 1935-38 Antibes)
  • Krebs (1936-37 FC Mulhouse)
  • Motschmann (1932-33 FC Mulhouse, 1935-36 US Valenciennes)
  • Nachbauer (1933-34 CA Paris)
  • Redl (1932-35 Fives) (Raymond Redel?=FRA) [2]
  • Christian Reicht (1933-34 Nice)
  • Ernst Schulzendorf (1932-33 FC Mulhouse)
  • Unser (1934-37 FC Mulhouse, 1937-38 RC Lens)

*Jules Weinstock (1933-34 CA Paris)

  • Zinthaller (1932-33 Hyères FC)

[edit] Yugoslavia

  • Markovic (1932-33 FC Sète)
  • Markovic (1937-38 Fives)

[edit] Czechoslovakia Flag of Czechoslovakia

*Barna (1934-35 SO Montpellier)

  • Blasko (1937-38 US Valenciennes)
  • Kapta (1937-39 Fives)
  • H. Kiehm (1932-33 AS Cannes, 1934-35 Nimes)
  • Kittel (1933-34 FC Sochaux)
  • Nyvelt (1933-35 Nimes, 1937-38 Red Star) (As for the two Czechoslovakians from SK Náchod I mentioned earlier, one was František Kuchta. The other one is a little bit of a mystery, because there were two players named Nývlt at Náchod. One was Oldřich Nývlt, who represented the ČSR once in 1935 and whose career in the Czech league has a gap in the 37/38 season. The other one was Jaroslav Nývlt who seemingly was at no Czech first league club in the 34/35 season (but as Náchod were relegated he still might have been with them). So I think there is a good chance that probably both Nývlts played in France, Jaroslav at Nîmes and Oldřich at Red Star. As Jaroslav was a goalkeeper and Oldřich a forward, it should be possible to verify or falsify this based on D1 lineups)
  • Skobsky (1932-33 FC Mulhouse)
  • One name that is not on the list is Czechoslovakian international goalkeeper Bohumil "Bonzo" Klenovec. I found two sources that claim he played in France in the 1930s, one of them stating that he was at Stade Rennais. He came to France very young as a student. I have found no information on when this might been exactly, however there is a gap in his league career in 32/33
  • Blasko might be János Blasko, whose career in the Czech league ends in 1936 at FK Teplitz. Borhm could be a typo and actually be Boehm, in this case it might be Karl (Karel) Böhm, an Austrian who played in the Czech league and whose career has a gap between 1933 (at Náchod) and the 1934/35 season (at Židenice). (I now found an source that says that an Austrian named Böhm played at Nîmes in 1934, so that should be him.) And I wonder if Brabek could be Václav Brabec-Baron, whose Czech league career ends in the 34/35 season at Bohemians Prague.
  • According to Austrian sources Kastl was Czechoslovakian, was formerly with Reichenberg and after his time in France played at Young Boys Berne. (Barreaud lists him as Austrian)
  • Blasko is probably Lajos Blasko

[edit] Germany

  • Ackerman (1935-36 Excelsior Roubaix)
  • Becker (1932-33 FC Metz)
  • Wilhelm Heidelberger (1937-38 US Valenciennes, 1937-38 RC Lens)
  • Matthias Heil (1935-36 US Valenciennes)
  • Weingartner (1935-36 Metz)
  • Westermann (1937-38 RC Paris):Barreaud lists him as German, but I wonder if this could be Ilja Westermann (also Vestermans), a Latvian international, who played for Hakoah Vienna in 35/36. He wasn't in any of his country's lineups for the three international matches they had during the 37/38 season, in which according to Barreaud a player named Westermann played at RC Paris.

[edit] Hungary

*Jozsef Ebner (1934-35 SO Montpellier) OK

  • Gergely (1934-35 FC Sète) formerly with Hungária OK
  • Adalbert Hawlik (1932-33 Nice) Played for Ferencvaros OK
  • Lorentz (1935-39 Red Star)
  • Karoly Mayer (1932-34 CA Paris, 1936-38 RC Strasbourg) ou Ferenc [3] [4] OK
  • Mayer (1933-34 Lille)
  • Albert Nagy (1936-1939 RC Roubaix)
  • Nemes (1936-37 Mulhouse) [5] OK
  • Karoly Pinter (1936-37 FC Mulhouse)
  • Edouard Schubert (1933-34 Nice, 1934-35 AS Cannes) (Maybe István Schubert?) Played for Ferencvaros
  • Szabo (1937-38 RC Lens)

So, about your list:

  • József Ébner (1934-35 SO Montpellier, 1938-39: Stade Rennais) (born 1909) - yes, Hungarian!
  • József Gergely (1934-35 FC Sète, 1935-36: Troyes) formerly with Hungária (died 194x)- yes, Hungarian!
  • Béla Havas (Havlik) (1932-33 Nice, 1933: Amiens) Played for Kispest and Csepel - yes, Hungarian!
  • Lorentz (1935-39 Red Star) - No, I could not find him
  • Ferenc Mayer (1932-34 CA Paris, 1936-38 RC Strasbourg) or Ferenc ?[6] [7], goalkeeper - yes, Hungarian!
  • Mayer (1933-34 Lille) - No, I could not find him. Maybe it is the same player with Ferenc Mayer?
  • Albert Nagy (1936-1939 RC Roubaix) - No, I could not find him however I have a János Nagy (1903-1966?), who played for Roubaix between 1936-37.
  • József Nemes (Nehadoma) (1933 and 1936-37 Mulhouse) - yes, Hungarian!
  • Károly Pintér (1936-37 FC Mulhouse) - No, I could not find him, however it is clearly a Hungarian name! Did he play in any other countries, or do you know more about him? I could look after him as well.
  • Edouard Schubert (1933-34 Nice, 1934-35 AS Cannes) (Maybe István Schubert?) Played for Ferencvaros - No, I could not find him, however it is clearly a Hungarian name again!
  • Szabó (1937-38 RC Lens) - I have two Szabó's from this time. Géza Szabó (1937-39 OSC Lille) and János Szabó (1934-38 FC Sochaux). Please note, that Szabó is the most frequent surname in Hungary.

Tamás Dénes, Pál Peterdi, Zoltán Rochy and József Selmeci (1999). Kalandozó magyar labdarúgók. ISBN 963-85967-0-9.  --gabute (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Corrections:

  • Marcel Lorentz (1935-39 Red Star) - French
  • Albert Nagy (1936-1939 RC Roubaix) - No, I could not find him however I have a János Nagy (1903-1966?), who played for Roubaix between 1936-37. 1932-33 Cannes.
  • Károly Pintér -> Carlo Pintér, born 13-10-1910 in Bratislavia also holds Swiss nationality.
  • Géza Szabó 1937-38 Lille, 1938-39 Rouen, born 12-6-1912. Hungarian. János Szabó 1938-39 Sochaux, French Champion 1935 and 1938, born 17-10-1912 in Miskolc. Hungarian. Another Janos Szabo played in France later.

--necronudist (talk) 10:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick corrections:I add some details here:
  • I wonder if Albert Nagy (1936-1939 RC Roubaix) is in fact János Nagy (AS Cannes 32-34) who is alreday in the list. Albert would be his French name.
  • So Carlo Pintér would be a Slovak player, that's why gabute was unable to find him in his book about Hungarian players abroad. Same case for Lorentz as he is French.
  • About Szabos: The first János Szabó: not sure he played for Sochaux in 1938-39. Seems he rather played for OFC Charleville in ligue 2 for that season. He also played for Attila club in Hungary before coming to France.

I have nothing more about Géza Szabó. It's true that a second János Szabó came to France. He was born 1/1/1925, a midfielder who came from H.V. Szombathely. Played for Troyes (46-47), Nîmes (47-50), Cannes (50-51) and Grenoble (51-54). It was always in ligue 2, that's why he is not in the list. So there is still a mysterious Szabo in Lens (37-38). I wonder if it could be a mistake by Barreaud.--Latouffedisco (talk) 11:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah gabute is great! However, you can ask Barreaud if he isn't dead :-P I've got nothing more unfortunately. --necronudist (talk) 11:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, Gabute has done a great research and is gonna send me his files about Hungarian in France through an e-mail. Well, this Szabo in Lens, I think we should forget him as nobody found something about him. By the way, I add Carlo Pintér to the Slovakia section. Good work again.Regards.--Latouffedisco (talk) 12:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Romania

  • Ratajaz (1932-33 Hyères FC)

[edit] Spain

  • Altuna (1935-36 FC Metz) [8]
  • Jean Sanz (1937-38 Red Star)

*Benito Tobia (1937-39 Excelsior Roubaix) Probably French

[edit] United Kingdom

  • Thomas William Coldicott (1934-35 Fives)
  • Albert Ernest Harry (1936-37 FC Mulhouse)
  • John (1936-37 FC Mulhouse)
  • William Laird (1933-34 Excelsior Roubaix)
  • William Thomas Murray (1937-38 RC Roubaix)
  • John Paton (1932-33 Excelsior Roubaix)
  • Harold Rivers (1932-33 FC Sète)
  • Arthur Thurley (1934-35 Red Star)
  • Woodsman (1932-33 Club français) (Woosman pour Gauthey)
  • William Bulloch Wright (1938-39 FC Rouen)

[edit] Divers liens internet

Bonjour Latouffedisco. Je te donne une liste de site internet afin de croiser tes sources.

Sinon il faut que tu m'envois un e-mail via wikipédia pcq je peux te scanner la liste de tous les yougloslaves du championnat de France qui avait été publié par France Football il y a qq temps. fr:Utilisateur:Xavoun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.150.124 (talk) 10:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalité d'Erevanian

Tout d'abord pour son prénom on trouve Armenak et Armeniak ... Ensuite selon l'ouvrage d'Alain Pécheral (dispo sur google books) on apprend qu'il est né en Turquie à Adana en 1915. A la fin de son ouvrage, pécheral recense tous les joueurs étrangers de l'OM mais Erevanian n'y figure pas. Peut-être pcq il est français. Je m'explique : Il joue à l'OM à 21 ans et vient de l'UG Arménienne, un petit club français. A mon avis ses parents ont fuit le génocide arménien et il est arrivé en France très jeune, ce qui fait qu'il est peut être devenu français à sa majorité. Ce n'est qu'une hypothèse je le répète. http://books.google.fr/books?id=VC8ywv74HfMC&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=Armeniak+Erevanian&source=web&ots=QiKI4eAeXu&sig=BJiX4lh1SczlAp516_veZ3d9gMA&hl=fr#PPA57,M1 fr:Utilisateur:Xavoun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.249.62.43 (talk) 13:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Good catch! Try searching Erevenian, too. --necronudist (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Coucou Latouffedisco. Je me ballade dans les catégories de footballeurs par pays et je tombe sur fr:Arménak Erévanian chez les arméniens. Il y a sa bio !!! fr:Utilisateur:Xavoun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.35.80.11 (talk) 08:16, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
C'est parfait, plus de doute maintenant, il est bien français!Je l'enlève donc de la liste.--Latouffedisco (talk) 17:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pavel Makar

J'ai trouvé ça : http://www.playerhistory.com/Default.aspx?page=player_details&playerID=72273. Il se prénomme Pavel Makarov alias Paul Makar en français car il est de nationalité française selon le site. Il y a sa fiche dans l'ouvrage de Barreaud page 244. Il a joué à Chelmsford City en Angleterre puis à Nîmes (49-51) et Grenoble (1951-1954). Sa seule saison en D1 c'est 1950-1951 (3 matchs, 0 but). fr:Utilisateur:Xavoun

Merci pour cette recherche, ce joueur semble être un vrai fantôme. Je n'ai rien trouvé d'autre sur le web, c'est frustrant. Nos seules sources sont ce lien et son entrée dans le dictionnaire de Barreaud. S'il a obtenu la nationalité française, peut-être devons nous l'enlever de la liste? Qu'en penses-tu?--Latouffedisco (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Selon le site playerhistory il a débuté en URSS. Je pense donc qu'il a eu la nationalité française après peut-être parce qu'il est resté en France après sa carrière. fr:Utilisateur:Xavoun —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.124.123.127 (talk) 19:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
C'est fort possible, je pense alors le laisser dans la liste, puisqu'il était probablement encore étranger quand il jouait. Merci encore.--Latouffedisco (talk) 12:39, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brahim Hemdani

He decided to play for Algeria, so he should be added. --necronudist (talk) 12:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right. Done--Latouffedisco (talk) 08:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grünbaum

I've got Hungarian Sándor Grünbaum 1935-36 Antibes 10/0 and not Imre. Maybe Imre = Heinrich = Henri Grunbaum who seems to be French. --necronudist (talk) 12:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

In Gabute's book we have both Sandor and Imre Grünbaum. It is said that Sandor was a centre-forward who played for Red Star Saint-Ouen (I'm not sure it is true). For Imre Grünbaum (Grünbaum II), the book only says that he did play in France. Barreaud says that Heinrich Grünbaum, an Austrian played in Antibes in 35/36. I would agree with you: I think that the Grünbaum in Antibes was Imre, because it is closer to French name Henri than Sandor, like Heinrich. We should be careful with nationalities, as French newspapers changed foreign names to French names, more simple to pronounce. In French Sandor was often changed into "Alexandre", like "Alexandre Friedmann" who was "Sándor Janda-Friedmann" in Hungary. I'm not really sure, but this seems quite logical. --Latouffedisco (talk) 09:29, 17 May 2008 (UTC)