Talk:Latvia

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[edit] Motto

Is there a need to give "Tēvzemei un Brīvībai" as a motto, if Latvia doesn't have official motto ? It's just that it seems that "Dievs, svētī Latviju!" is also used as motto and I'd say it's more popular than Tēvzemei un Brīvībai. -- Xil/talk 17:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I don`t think any of these "mottos" are broadly used in Latvia. It could also be "Sarauj, Latvija".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.138.105.20 (talk • contribs)
Please, be serious :) these mottos are supposed to be official, they don't need to have everyday use, I'm talking about use in speeches and letters. Honestly I think that maybe there shouldn't be any motto at all in the infobox as there is no official motto of state---- Xil/talk 16:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Well this motto quite official since it is carved on the monument of freedom. There was large competition for this motto and if not mistaken Karlis Baumanis (could be horibly wrong) has preposed couple of mottos with this 2 words in different writting styles. And this one was selected representing the start of new era in latvian history driven by Jaunlatviesi (New Latvians). So I think this is very appropriate and official. On the the other hand Saruj Latvian is common chear. Could be added to Latvian Sports =D. --Cliff (talk) 01:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Kārlis yes, but Skalbe. The inscription on the Freedom Monument is as official as "unofficial" can get, after all, it is carved in stone. "Sarauj' Latvija!" is definitely more for hockey fans. :-) —PētersV (talk) 02:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Baumanis was the author of "Dievs, svētī Latviju", note that Monument of Freedom was erected in 1935 well after the contry gained indepenence whereas "Dievs, svētī Latviju" has been aroun since the 19th century (well before country gained independence). "Tēvzemei un Brīvībai" is used almost only on the monument (acctualy, Cliff, Kārlis Skalbe didn't have anything to do with Young Latvians, maybe you've mixed it up with the anthem ?). Wouldn't it be more convinient to put none in the infobox as this gets very close to WP:OR ? ~~Xil...sist! 18:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Risk for tourists

Someone added this:
A British citizen was condemned to 5 years in prison because he urinated on a statue, the detention didn't respect the human rights, and the trial was full of irregularities. Two Spanish citizens are now in prision waiting for a trial because they stole two little flags valued in 10$ each one. In this detention the tourist were aimed at the head by police officers guns, they could be condemned for 6 to 9 years in prison.
I removed it for folowing reasons: There is no references, to my knoledge the insignificance of given crimes and the punishments are largely exaggerated - In both cases the tourists mistreated important Latvian symbols protected by Law, in first case Britons were fined not jailed, I had never heard anything about Spanish tourists, but I found similar case, which I guess is the one described here (seven spanish tourists tearing flags from poles - they were released not sentenced for 6-9 years). And the "statue" is 42 meters high, while flags valued 10$ each ought to be nolrmal sized flags - neither of these is as small as the text implies. Summing up - if tourists commit crimes (hooliganism, harming Latvian flag, theft), they are punished by law as anyone in Latvia would. It is not a risk to every tourist. Also this is not that significant to addit to country's article ---- Xil/talk 09:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

There was a very good article on this topic in Baltic Outlook (Airbaltic in-flight magazine) written as far as I remember by ambassador of UK in Latvia. In that article the number of tourists was compared to the number of cases involving tourist for the past year, and how many of those involved British citizen and what cases were about. Most British cases were about anti-social behaviour and only a few (<10) were involving risk for tourists (e.g. unauthorised credit card transaction at POS in doggy strip clubs/bars/night clubs). This article proved with numbers that it is very safe to travel to Latvia as long as you don't get drunk and behave unresponsively. Those who want to find trouble always will =D. Trying to get article from archives cause very nice small sub-topic article could be written. --Cliff (talk) 01:31, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New European vector maps

You're invited to discuss a new series of vector maps to replace those currently used in Country infoboxes: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#New European vector maps. Thanks/wangi 13:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religion

Ministry of Justice here (unfortunately this information is available only in Latvian) has statistics on religions, slightly different compered to those given in this article, however they state that they lack some data. Someone who knows something about religions could sumarise these data for the article (Ministry of Justice is more reliable source), unfortunately I don't know anything abot these matters so I can't tell if luterans are seperate from german luterans or could be simply both conted as luterans or how significant the missing data is ---- Xil/talk 16:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagging

Please note, this article is NOT missing citations and/or footnotes! Please feel free to improve the article Latvia by introducing specific fact tags in the text or raise any questions on the discussion page. Tagging the whole article that is in a general good condition, that has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team, is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version, is not acceptable. Therefor please remove the general tag ASAP and in the future please do not misuse the tags on WP. Thanks--Termer 23:04, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Since the user talk has not engaged in a discussion, explaining why is it necessary to tag an article that is in a good condition, that has all relevant Bibliography and References available. I'm going to remove the tags for second time. Please do not replace the tags without reaching a consensus first here on the discussion page. --Termer 01:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it was nighttime here. As for why is it necessary, I believe it's obvious that an article of this size and importance needs much more inline citations and references to be verifiable. A general further reading or bibliography section without footnotes helps only as far as creating an impression of some credibility. I must also note that the Wikipedia CD selection project is a relatively minor affair, that it does not subject articles to a particularly rigorous review, and that it does not mean that the articles that pass should be held to lesser quality standards than others. I will restore the tags, and ask you once more not to remove them, and to stop making unsubstantiated accusations. Reinistalk 08:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion this kind of approach, editing WP by labeling articles in a good condition that have refs and sources available, is ignorant and disruptive. Please feel free to reference any commonly known facts in this article with more specific sources if you think it's necessary but please do not go fuhrer with the pattern of misusing tagging on WP. I hereby call up all responsible editors to remove the unnecessary tag from the article Latvia. Thanks! --Termer 21:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Most of the books in the Bibliography section are rare; the article is not even A-Class; cf. with Lithuania, which is a GA. The bottom line is that an article can not be in a good condition if its accuracy is not verifiable. The point of the tags is to alert editors that it needs attention. Reinistalk 08:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't reviewed the references in a while, but I'm sure, Reinis, that you're aware that there is a dearth of widely accessible sources with anything about the Baltics other than where they are located. I've probably spent at least $1,000 on references over the last year or two, on everything from the history of eastern central Europe to the forming of the current frozen conflict zone (Transnistria, South Ossetia,...) to Soviet publications explaining how they were forced to invade because the Baltics were militarily allying themselves against the Soviets who had only ever offered a hand of friendship. All "rare." But such is the nature of scholarship on those topics.
     I do agree that Lithuania is in better shape, however, some of that is also a reflection of less "anti-nationalist activism" there on the part of some Wikipedia editors. There's less incentive to work on something when you know you will be dragged into worthless discussions regarding the merits of official Soviet pre-Perestroika historiography. And this is by no means a phenomenon linked only to the Baltics:
and elsewhere
...as some representative samples. But back to the topic of tagging.
    Quality wise, I do agree that the page needs work in general. It's a sad state of affairs when an article about Latvia has as its first illustration its first invaders (the Crusaders). And, taking your tagging of the Rainis article, which I had expanded from its original "stub" as an example, taken in the proper (constructive) context, tags can help in focusing editor attention on deficiencies—at least when the editors are all on the same "side"(!), which I believe to be the case here. :-)
    I should note that, going back to your point of verifiability, my own projects specifically focus on, among other things, bringing "rare" materials to a far wider audience, the latest being Rumpeters' Soviet Aggression Against The Baltic States. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 13:52, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I've tagged the specific paragraphs where there really is no excuse to not have references, and removed the banner from the top. I'd move the {{citations missing}} banner to the History section, but it seems to overlap with the country infobox. I think the way to proceed there would be to add footnotes with page numbers or quotes from the books. I'll try to get around to adding some myself. The overall goal should probably be to achieve a parity with Lithuania. Reinistalk 13:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links

Reini, did you not go a bit delete happy on the "Other" category of links? For example, Association for the Advancement of Baltic Studies would be important to keep, right off the top of the list. Even our own web site (Latvians.com), which one could argue is personal, has copious reference materials not found anywhere else on the Internet--for example, there's no place else to find a M.I.T. study on the Latvians under Soviet rule. Nor does it sell, advertise, or promote anything. I read the same guidelines you did regarding links and did not come up with the same conclusion regarding deletion. —  Pēters J. Vecrumba 19:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latvia as part of the USSR

I think that this article in its present state lacks factual description of what happened to its economy and culture under Soviet rule. I am not a specialist on the subject, but I feel that there were both positive and negative changes. No positive changes are currently mentioned. In 1920-ies and 1930-ies Latvia was a rural underdeveloped country being ruled by a dictator abusing human rights and many Latvians had to go abroad to seek better life. It is a well-established fact, or is it not? On the other hand, in 1990 or so I visited Riga myself and was really impressed by Latvian level of living, which was higher than in most other USSR republics at the time. Those changes should be described in this article in an objective manner. ENGLISH SPEAKING LATVIANS, IT IS YOUR CHALLENGE, FIRST OF ALL. There is no way denying the Soviet occupation, same as it is no good to think that Russians = Soviets. It certainly were not Russians who ruled in the USSR, it were Communists and as we all know they do not recognize any nationalities, they claim to be internationalists. --Leonid Dzhepko 08:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

You see what you consider well established fact we consider well established soviet propoganda myth - Generally Latvians believe that Latvia was not only not underdeveloped, but highly developed and Ulmanis' authoritorian regime addressed political and economical crisis (which likely could have been solved in another way, still for many Latvians Ulmanis is a folk hero not a tyrant). Soviet Union didn't develop Latvia it merely saved what was left after WWII and then simply moved forward in time, introducing same technolgies it did in the rest of the USSR, therefore we Latvians indeed believe that Soviet Union rather somewhat staled Latvia's development and we would have done much better without it. -- Xil...sist! 10:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
You are talking about beliefs, not facts again, aren't you? Was it not thanks to Ulmanis' policy that Latvia fell an easy prey to Soviets? A dictator is a dictator, and violation of basic human rights is violation of human rights, whatever nice excuses or good causes they are wrapped into. I think Latvian people accepted Soviet regime without much struggle, because most of them must have thought that one regime was not much worse than the other. Still, whatever changes there were during Soviet rule (as well as during Ulmanis rule), they should nevertheless be depicted in an encyclopedia. I would like to see Latvia a country with predictable past (at least), unlike the USSR. No good replacing Soviet-time propaganda myths with modern Latvian propaganda myths. We Wikipedians should be above politicking. Let politians play their dirty games. Do you agree? Please describe facts. Just naked facts, and let people think themselves. --Leonid Dzhepko 06:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I appreciate your reply, Xil. --Leonid Dzhepko 06:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It is true that in 1990, the Baltic states' standard of living was considerably ahead of most of the rest of USSR. However, in 1939, the Baltic states' standard of living was also considerably ahead of most of the USSR, so this comparison can not establish a "positive change" under the Soviet occupation. Another, much starker, comparison would be comparison of the Baltic states with the unoccupied European states, such as Finland and Sweden. In 1939, Estonia's GDP per capita and life expectancy at birth were higher than these indicators in Finland. In 1989, I think you know what had happened to Finland, and where the Baltic states still were.

That having been said, I believe the whole "balance positive with negative" approach is unsuitable for encyclopædic approach, because it presupposes judgment, and judgment is detrimental to neutrality. We should represent facts as they're understood by the scholars, not try to figure out which facts can be considered positive and which facts negative. 泥紅蓮凸凹箱 06:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Leonid, as a professional historian, I can say that there are no such thing as "naked facts" that speak for themselves, regardless of context and presentation. All articles are a conscious choice by the authors of what to include or exclude, thereby skewing the readers' ability to "think for themselves". Due to the incompleteness of the historical record and the limits of human fallibility, it is actually impossible to present all the "facts" in a comprehensive, objective manner.
As for your assertion that Latvia was "underdeveloped" in the interwar period, please tell me: by what standards are you measuring development? By certain indicators, Latvia in the late 1930s was at a developmental level comparable to Nordic countries (which, admittedly, were not doing spectacularly well, then either). For example, meat consumption per capita in Latvia in 1939 was a hair-raising 85 kg per annum, far greater than in other carnivorous nations like the UK (64 kg) or the USA (62 kg). Foreign observers visiting Latvia in the 1920s and 1930s were usually impressed by how the country rebuilt from the destruction of WWI, and was undergoing a process of rapid, albeit sometimes uneven modernisation. EWP Newman's Britain and the Baltics (1930), Latvia: Country and People (1938) by the Times correspondent ROC Urch, and EC Davies's A Wayfarer in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (2nd ed, 1938), are in my opinion fairly typical portrayals by foreign observers. Note that these books also contain critical observations, not just praise.
That much of the large-scale industry in Latvia was not revived following WWI should also come as no surprise. Many of the factories had been evacuated to the Russian interior, never to return. Furthermore, as with the situation after 1991, many of these industries served a large internal market that no longer existed following the breakup of the Empire. That the country's economy should instead concentrate on light industry (textiles, consumer goods) and agriculture and forestry is thus logical, and not necessarily evidence of backwardness. This is not to say that everything was done right. The étatism and state capitalism that started before, but accelerated under the Ulmanis régime had the consequences of a long-term decline in the standard of living, following and initial upswing due to massive state investment (see the conclusions of economic historian Aizsilnieks). The nationalisation of large parts of the economy not only made things less efficient, it also made things easier for Nazi Germany to manipulate Latvia's foreign trade through the clearing system, as well as doing half the job for the Soviets already before the occupation in 1940.
Finally, you say "I think Latvian people accepted Soviet regime without much struggle, because most of them must have thought that one regime was not much worse than the other." When I look at the well-known photos of people in Riga in 1940 carrying banners in favour of joining the USSR (and the pictures of those greeting the troops of Nazi Germany a year later), I always wonder what they were really thinking, and why they felt they were doing what they did. I don't have any answers to these questions, and I have certainly thought about it a great deal, both professionally and privately. It's reassuring that you, on the other hand, know exactly what people were thinking and feeling in the past. But do you have reliable, verifiable sources to back up your hypotheses? A photo is indeed a "naked fact", but it is certainly not the whole picture... — Zalktis 07:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I pointed that it is a popular belief mostly because I didn't check facts and this isn't necessary my opinion. Yet part of these popular beliefs are based on facts (such as that Latvia was not underdeveloped). As for Latvians giving up too easily - even if we forget that Russia is and was the world's largest country with more resources then Latvia could ever dream of, one man is not a warrior, people need leadership to efectively fight, but Ulmanis chosed not to fight. Yet there was resistence, see Forest Brothers for exsample. Besides this article should contain brief overview of the history and, in my humble opinion, this article's history section is already too long, Latvian SSR should be expanded instead ---- Xil...sist! 14:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your detailed responses, guys. I am not an expert in the field and do not want to make any assertions, therefore I have just asked these questions (which hang on the minds of (some) people in the FSU countries) on the discussion page, so I beg you not to ask me to provide any facts. On the contrary, I am happy to hear them from you as more knowledgeable. Anyway it is up to every writer of Wikipedia and his conscience. And, of course, it is a very good idea to expand the Latvian SSR. --Leonid Dzhepko 11:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not that expert on Latvian history but I know some things about estonian history and expect that latvian bears some resemblance. Estonia was used as an Example State of Communism so there were probably some good or somewhat good things in there in personal perspective of USSR residents. For example looking through the old documents of Linen factory in my home village I noticed funny things. The production of full products sometimes exceeded 300% of raw material. Take 1kg of linen and make 3kg of clothes. At the same time people tended to steal a lot from the factory. Mainly because there were some Annual Plan based on how much raw materials must be used. If the factory failed to use the material some inspectors came and were quite angry. Nobody really counted the products you made just the fact that all raw materials were used. Same also went for gasoline. There was some amount of gasoline which truck driver had to use, if he failed to use it all then he was probably not doing enough work and should be punished. If he wasted all the gas and asked for more he even got a medal for being an exemplary worker. :) So people just took the stuff they couldn't use for work to themselves and shared it with friends. Also currently old people still cry for soviet times because welfare used to be better at soviet times. Not sure if it is just a "back at my time" syndrome or fact.

As Estonia was used as example state most people didn't suffer from lack of life quality. Things you needed for life were always available. Ofcourse the selection of goods and stuff like that was rather limited.

On the other hand at country level the system relied on heavy funding from Russia. The 300% production was hoax, the efficiency was probably close to 10% in reality. It didn't matter how efficient the factory was, it had to look like it worked and is successful, but in reality it was just a moneysink which really produced no results. And the whole stuff was just a circus to make people to believe that these are the high standards people live by in soviet union. The employees were more like actors than real factory workers.

If anyone can make sense of my story and can find sources to back that up I think it could be added to the articles. If anyone has more questions about that stuff feel free to drop me a line. I have some historic annual reports of factories in my home town, but you can't really use them as sources as this is original research. Suva Чего? 11:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independence

In the infobox it says:

  • Declared 18 November 1918
  • Proclaimed 4 May 1990

Is there any reason why this shouldn't be vice versa given that 18 November in Latvia is known as day of "proclamation" and on 4 May "declaration of restoration" was made ? -- Xil...sist! 20:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese in Russian Revolution

White Army propaganda poster depicting Leon Trotsky. Notice the Chinese soldiers.
White Army propaganda poster depicting Leon Trotsky. Notice the Chinese soldiers.
  • I believe that the poster here reproduced is a racist Propaganda "White" Russian poster and should not be used in the WP article on the alleged role of the Latvians in the Russian Revolution which requires the use of scholarly references. The claim is currently being expressed that the Russians were the victims, in part, of the Latvians - that the Latvians are in part to blame for the Russian Revolution, together with Chinese Riflemen, and the Jews. I ask that those interested in Latvian history come over and express their view as to the role, or responsibility - if any - of Latvians for the Russian Revolution. Thank you. --Ludvikus 01:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tagging

I understand and support the concept of WP:VERIFY and the refs certainly could be improved, but some of the tagging goes way over the top - one of the tags for example asks for a citation that Latvia is in the EU - equivalent to asking for verification that Texas is in the USA. This is just frivolous and doesn't help the article. Valenciano (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree entirely, and removed that specific tag (before even seeing your comment here). The others are ridiculous too. Someone with an ax to grind did a hatchet job on this article. Zweifel (talk) 21:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian-speaking country category

This cat has been added again, despite the mediation decision last year. In accordance with this mediation, I have removed the category, again. — Zalktis (talk) 15:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The inclusion of Kosovo

I'm resuming with the inclusion of independent Kosovo in the maps of the countries that have recognised it. Bardhylius (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it will be problem here, but please note, that in the current map Latvia itself has been showed slightly wrong - the eastern border is not where it should be, perhaps you could correct it if you make map ? ~~Xil...sist! 18:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Ah, sorry I have already corrected it. But please inform me more on the corrections due to happen and I will remake the map. Bardhylius (talk) 20:47, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Well that's nothing tragic it just forms a bit of wrong angle, never mind ~~Xil...sist! 00:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)