Talk:Latin honors

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[edit] American-centred

The system of Latin honours has been in practice at European universities since the Middle Ages. There are five grades: Summa Cum Laude (I), Insigne Cum Laude (II), Magna Cum Laude (III), Cum sldkfsd 67]]

Precisely! The article needs to discuss the topic from much wider angle. --The Merciful 18:20, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
194.230.122.67, do you have any references showing the use of Latin honors at European universities in the Middle Ages? If so, put the information into the article. The Merciful, Wikipedia is not a research team working at your behest. If "the article needs to discuss the topic from a much wider angle," then get cracking.
BTW, I took off the NPOV note, since there's no (apparent) NPOV problem with in the article. -Rjyanco 15:54, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
The POV problem is in that the article is far too focused on the American system, when in fact it used in other countries, and is more universal than the text makes it out. Lack of relevant facts is bias too. I personally don't have the expertise to fix the article, but I do know as a native that in Finland we have latin honors for graduation exams of our high-school equilevant and universtity graduation thesis, and university studies are divided into abropatur, cum laude and laudatur levels. Note also previous commentator's notes of history of latin honors dating back to Middle Ages - after all, Latin was the language of higher education at that time in Europe.
It may be that other template, like {{disputed}} - which is stronger than {{NPOV}} - might be more correct, but at least NPOV-notice informs readers that the article has severe problems. --The Merciful 17:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Since no one is stopping you from doing so, why don't you rewrite it to meet your concerns instead of just putting a POV template on the page? You say that you don't have the expertise to do so, but it sounds like you know something, at least, about the Finnish system which you could add. —Lowellian (talk) 00:28, August 1, 2005 (UTC)
Knowledge of Finnish system doesn't mean knowledge of the issue in general, and the article tittle is general. Besides, that "fix it or shut up" attitude isn't very productive in forming well working co-operative volunteer effort such as Wikipedia. After all, I did give some pointers that somebody, for example you, could use as a springboard to write a better article. --The Merciful 17:41, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
It specifies it's talking about the American system. Why not stick a paragraph saying sometihing like "Non-American countries also use latin honors, which may be in a different sense" and take off the tag? Michael Ralston 00:34, 1 August 2005 (UTC)
The article title is "Latin honors", not "Latin honors in American academia". Content should match the title. --The Merciful 17:36, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Certainly the article should be expanded to discuss use of Latin honors in other countries, to the extent that this benefits the article. Furthermore, I would love to see evidence confirming the claims of our anonymous friend about Latin honors being in use in Europe during the Middle Ages. The 1894 book quote (which I added to this article) is from a relatively contemporaneous book that doesn't otherwise overstate much, and if Amherst College merely borrowed the idea of Latin honors from Europe, I suspect that would have been noted in the book, rather than the book calling the system "original and peculiar". Certainly many of the author's peers (college professors) studied abroad, and the supposed creator of the system at Amherst had studied at Halle, Germany. [1]
Tracing the use of Latin honors seems like tracing the origins of baseball. If you want to claim that monks were playing baseball in Göttingen in 1528, maybe some evidence would be in order. -Rjyanco 18:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
What is it actually that is called original and peculiar? Quote: The new system of administration, of which the above is a part, is so original and peculiar that it is known as the Amherst System. I don't read it as it's the use of Latin that is original! So basically what we have here is two conflicting assertions:
1. Latin honors were used in medieval Europe. This is supported by the well known fact that Latin was the language of higher education at the time.
2. (Not explicitly stated, but implied) An American school started, out of blue, using Latin honors on the brink of the 20th centry.
Furthermore, I already noted the Finnish use of Latin, and given the historical ties between the two countries, I strongly suspect the same is or was true in Sweden.
So, please don't remove the NPOV-tag before the issue is proberly resolved. So far none of my or 194.230.122.67's conserns have been invalidated. --The Merciful 08:18, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
You've not noted the Finnish use of Latin at any time but in the present day. 194.230.122.67 has given no evidence to support his claim, which may simply be an assumption. Regardless, NPOV is an inappropriate label and is going away... again. You're welcome to add supported evidence to the article. -Rjyanco 15:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The modern ylioppilastutkinto was 150 years old in 2002 [2] and use of academic latin honors in Finland dates at least to 1886 [3]. The german wikipedia notes an Austrian system of Latin honors. The current article suggests the use of latin honors originated in america, but doesn't prove it. If NPOV is inappropriate, replace it with a better tag. And pleace don't make anymore insulting and condescending suggestions that I have an obligation to edit the article. --The Merciful 10:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I change History to History in America as to not conflict with the fact that Europe probably used it first. Don't take this personally The Merciful, but if you have a really problem with an article and it matters the most to you, you should take it upon yourself to fix it. the research you presented on this Talk page is good...you should incorporate it into the article though. I am suggesting you do so because you seem to be the most familiar with it. having a revert war is not productive and it really does seem like you are outnumbered on this one. i hope i came across as clear and not insulting, but persuasive. -- Bubbachuck 19:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I added an "expand" tag. I don't care about the article enough to edit it, but I do care enough about the potential reader to inform her that the article may be lacking. Plus, it might get attention of someone who does care enough to research properly and to edit the article. Surely all these tags exist for a reason? --The Merciful 08:19, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Why not just list out the different honours in an nonparticulated order, and then discuss how the different systems rank them? Finish... Austrian... Canadian... Curran919 19:11, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proportion of graduates receiving honors

So what proportion of graduates achieve summa, magna etc? It'd be nice to have more information in this article. ZephyrAnycon 21:32, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Each university has different standards. It varies (often a great deal) between different universities. —Lowellian (reply) 07:05, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Answers.com

Answers.com has this article almost word for word. Just figured I would point that out in case it is of concern. Answers.com article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.88.180.182 (talk • contribs) 01:36, 28 April 2006

Answers.com is a known wiki mirror. Their article is copied from here. Millancad 00:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relation to the British system

Can any academic who has worked in both the US and UK explain the relation between Latin honours and the British system of 1st, 2:1, 2:2 and 3rd? Adambisset 11:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I have worked both at Ivy league and Oxbridge universities. The equivalents are those listed in the main body of the article, i.e., summa and magna cum laude = first class honors, cum laude a 2.1

I disagree very much with the comparison made between US and European Honours degree classifications in this article, and with the above statement as it too appears to be a bit under- stated and mis-informed. "Honours" means just that. Therefore, 3rd Class Honours is just what it states- Honours, if not it would be considered a "pass or ordinary" degree... Ask anyone who earned an Honours degree, if he would have liked to have earned a Passs or Ordinary degree, or a Pass earner, the reverse? I too have law degrees from the US, UK, and Switzerland, and I also have taught university in both Continents. Actually, it mostly depends upon the university and programme awarding the degree in the UK & EU. The US has summa cum laude, magna cum laude, and cum laude. Both the US and the UK have also ordinary and/or pass degrees. Although this is not an exact measurement, as the UK has a different grading & credit system than that of the US. Honours in Western Europe has more to do with the programme and the university attended and awarding the degree, and not strictly or only with GPA as it is the US. In most US/UK universities, it is usually measured thus, Summa = 1st, Magna = 2nd, and 3rd = Cum laude, which actually means "with honours,merit, or praise". Like the US,in the UK, the rest of the degrees are merely "Pass or Ordinary". —Preceding TEMPLEBARRISTER comment added by66.181.4.150 (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about cum fructis?

Louvain University also has this designation: "cum fructis", which seems to me to suggest "promising" or somesuch. What is the correct characterization? 128.233.178.186 16:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats when you pass by using that fruity shampoo. 88.107.171.217 (talk) 10:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] unreferenced

I tagged the article because it doesn't feature a published source other than for the "History of usage in the US"-section, as far as I can see. Kncyu38 05:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

By that standard you could add an unreferenced tag to 95% of the articles in Wikipedia. When encyclopedias talk about things that are generally common knowledge, there is (in my opinion) no need to give a reference. e.g., here's a line from the logarithm article:
The logarithm of a number x in base b is the number n such that x = bn.
No source is given. Is that an unreferenced article in your opinion? Not in mine.
I know Wikipedia has problems with people intentionally slipping in false information, but unless the article being modified is obscure, there is a reasonableness line that needs to be considered. An article about something as common as college honors is not an obscure topic; most of what is in the article is either common knowledge or (in the case of the history, which is not common knowledge) it is cited.
Perhaps this is the test: "Is it the case that, if the article were incorrect, a randomly-selected reader of the article could notice that the information is incorrect?" If not, then you definitely need references. (If I assert that the Duchy of Kncyu38 existed in central Europe between 942 AD and 953 AD before being annexed by Hungary, then I would argue that a randomly-selected reader of Wikipedia has no way of verifying that assertion, which of course is false. But if I assert that clementines are orange, a reference wouldn't be necessary.
Do you see what I mean? -Rjyanco 12:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. - OK, I see your point, but there are two problems I have with those self-evident commonsense facts: 1) Where do we draw the line between self-evident and not-quite self-evident? 2) Simple facts about e.g. Latin honors should be easy to back up with sources, and every article can and should set an example for all other articles. So if an article like this isn't thoroughly referenced, how can anyone expect the same from Cheating in counterstrike? Kncyu38 12:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re-tagging the article as unreferenced

I re-tagged the article, hoping for more and better references to be introduced. We should work to avoid any "self-evident facts". —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spam filters

The "Spam filters" section is interesting, but is it really relevant to Latin honors per se? Should a similar cautionary note be added to every other article with "cum" in the title? Decagon 05:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also used by high schools

I don't know how many High Schools award graduates, but I just returned from the Niceville High School Commencement in Florida. Approx 20% of their graduates were awarded Summa Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude, or Cum Laude, complete with differently colored "sashes?" over their gowns.

[edit] Spelling

Are "Sum Cum Laude" or "Suma Cum Laude" accepted alternate ways to spell the phrase? -kslays 18:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

That's not how you spell the Latin word, so I would think not.
"sum cum laude" means "I am with praise". So I wouldn't accept this as a correct spelling.

[edit] Mistranslation

I think, those grades are wrongly translated, and I wonder why everyone actually uses those misleading translations.

While "cum laude" indeed means "with praise", "magna cum laude" actually doesn't mean "with great praise". That would be "cum laude magni". "magna" is a Nominative and thus can't be an attribute to "laude", which is an Ablative. In Latin, substantive and attribute are in the same case. Thus "magna" is a solitude substantive, meaning "the great", or in this case "the great part of the work".

"magna cum laude" thus means "the great part with praise", indicating that only some smaller parts have some weaknesses, but for the most the work can be praised.

The same is valid for "summa cum laude", in this case meaning "the whole with praise", indicating, that all of the work can be praised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.127.38.230 (talk) 21:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hysterical praise

One of Fordham University’s student newspapers translated this as “with hysterical praise,” and so the university dropped the distinction and awards such degrees with summa honors, and a notation In cursu honorum, “in the honors course.” This latter notation is used by some other schools as well.

Anyone have a source for this? All I can find are ones that seem to come from this article.--Insomniac By Choice (talk) 22:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)