Talk:Latin American Britons

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[edit] Confusion

There still appears to be confusion about the article's subject. It appears to include people who are/were Latin Americans of British ancestry, not citizens (or even residents) of the UK. SamEV (talk) 21:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes completly agree with you...ive tried to delete some people that were not born or raised in the UK ...this does not include people that happen to be in the UK for work etc..LA Britons are Britons with latin american hertitage or cultural heritage/Identity via a mother or father..eg: Jade Jagger....which fro me includes people that happen to have British ancestry but came from a Latin american country seems to be corrct since many of them are of many ancestries..but if this needs ot be taken correctly then ..just need to delete some people that do not apply to the article..I repete THIS IS NOT AN ARTICLE ABOUT LATIN AMERICANS OF BRITISH ANCESTRY..they can be of any ancestry as long as they have been mainly raised in the UK...which qualifies to be a Briton...Hispano 19:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, although I wouldn't require that they have grown up there mostly; if they're UK permanent residents who only arrived this year that would still be enough for me. Nevertheless, you understand the issue I was addressing and I'm confident that you made a good edit. SamEV (talk) 02:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I've just had a clear up and deleted names of Latin Americans with British Ancestry (as opposed to Britons with Latin American ancestry) from the article. It's not the only article where this has happened, sadly. It's basic factual innaccuracy. Indisciplined (talk) 15:10, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Much better now. I hope you next take on the fact that the article includes Spanish Britons and Portuguese Britons as "Latin American". I think that only an article titled "Hispanic Britons", for example, should include them all, if it should at all. I have no doubt that Latin American Britons and Iberian Britons get along quite well in the UK, but I don't think they identify as one and the same people. SamEV (talk) 23:14, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Where in the article does it do that? Indisciplined (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Some of it has been removed since. The infobox used to read: "In 2007 Inc. Illegal Immigrants and Ancestry (Spanish and Portuguese also) 500,000"[1] But the article still reads: "over 500,000 Britons are of Iberian or Latin American origin" and "The early 1980s saw the Latin American (or "Ibero-American") and Spanish communities coming together". SamEV (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
On a related topic, is it suitable to have Gilberto Silva's picture in the infobox? I've never heard him referred to as a Brit, he's Brazilian by birth and he plays for Brazil, so I've removed his photo. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:13, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
If he doesn't reside in the UK, he shouldn't have been added. Also, I noticed you removed some people who are not British citizens. But our policy here has been to include people who are permanently established in the UK, regardless of citizenship. SamEV (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
He is resident in the UK as he plays for Arsenal, but I don't see how that makes him British. A policy that classifies someone as British (or any other nationality) solely on residency rather than citizenship is surely highly problematic. If we applied it widely, David Beckham would be American, Arsène Wenger would be British, and so on... Cordless Larry (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
We need to resolve this, per the Wikipolicies, not just for this article but for many others. We should peruse Template:Infobox ethnic group et al. I'll do that ASAP. SamEV (talk) 21:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Larry, from what I read, citizenship is no requirement for this infobox. Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups/Template explicitly lists this option: "This article covers the <GROUP> as an ethnic group, not <GROUP> meaning citizens of <COUNTRY>". How do you respond? SamEV (talk) 21:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
As I understand it, this criteria exists so that, say, Irish-Americans can be listed as Irish even if they are not citizens of Ireland. But people such as Gilberto are ethnically Brazilian as well as Brazilian citizens. I see that as further evidence that people such as Gilberto shouldn't be included here, unless you can make a case that he is ethnically British? Cordless Larry (talk) 00:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure about that. Anyway, I sense that our debating this between us won't be productive, so I cut to the chase and posted a request for help at Template talk:Infobox Ethnic group#What about citizenship?. I hope we get lucky and one of them decides to reply (there's been no comment there in months). SamEV (talk) 00:43, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This is the definition of an ethnic group, from that page: An ethnic group or ethnicity is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic identity is also marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, behavioral or biological traits. Therefore I don't see how Gilberto is British on these grounds. Now, being British is not simply an ethnic identity - it is a civic identity as well - but seeing as he doesn't have citizenship I don't see how he can be termed British on those grounds either. Finally, we might describe him as British if he chose to do so himself, but I've never heard him do so and we'd need a reference for that. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, this is not about Gilberto, but about all those others who've made the UK their permanent home but are not yet citizens. Also, it's not about the label "ethnicity", but the label "Briton(s) with Latin American ancestry", and whether it applies to those non-citizen permanent residents. SamEV (talk) 06:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I was only using Gilberto as an example. My wider point is that you need some grounds for defining who is a "Briton". These could be ethnic, civic, or because someone feels British, but I don't think residency should count, otherwise we'll categorise as British lots of people who would never call themselves British. For example, Clive James is listed as Australian despite living in the UK since 1961, presumably because he doesn't have British citizenship and still considers himself Australian. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's my point.
However, in the case of the US, at least, groups bearing the demonym "American" include both citizen and non-citizen residents. This is the Census Bureau's practice, and it is conventional at Wikipedia. See Hispanics in the United States, Asian American, German American, for example, and visit their Census Bureau referents. We must find out whether different rules should apply to the UK, as you're suggesting. SamEV (talk) 00:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, well the German American article starts with "German Americans are citizens of the United States of ethnic German ancestry". Hispanics in the United States is slightly different because the article title does not suggest that they are American, but rather "in the United States", so I can see how that could include non-citizens. Asian American is a bit more vague about who's included. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:02, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
So I got two out of three? But I repeat: All three include non-citizens, as they quote Census Bureau (CB) figures that do. (But first: The first sentence of Hispanics in the United States does call them American. But I agree that the present title allows people to draw the conclusion they don't really count as Americans like the other groups.) German American cites a figure of 50,764,352 from the CB. Their citizenship breakdown shows that of these 50,764,352, 263,290 are not U.S. citizens. As for the Asian American article: it is not as equivocal as you stated. The title has "American" in it, and the first sentence states that "Asian Americans are Americans of Asian ancestry." (My emphasis) It then cites the CB as its source for a figure of 15 million Asian Americans, whose citizenship breakdown, also from the CB, shows that 3,966,881 are not citizens. And just to be thorough, of the 44 million Hispanics and Latinos, 12,848,354 are not citizens. SamEV (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I've posted a comment at Talk:German American asking about the population figures there because there's obviously a discrepancy if the article is supposedly about citizens but the figure includes non-citizens. But other than using other articles as comparisons, all I can say is that residency is a very shaky thing to base being British on. For example, how long a period of residency is long enough? One year, two years, 10 years? And if we do, as I pointed out earlier, we'd classify lots of people as British who would never self-identify as such. The concept of "permanent residency" isn't very helpful because although we could use this for non-EU citizens with permanent immigration status in the UK, what about other Europeans who don't need to apply for residency to stay here? Cordless Larry (talk) 23:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Residency is not "the" criterion, but one of them. Now, though I think only permanent residents should be included, other editors may feel no need for such a limitation. And I made no mention of length of residency. Only that these people have attained legally recognized permanent resident status.
If, as I've explained (or tried, anyway), this title means 'British population with Latin American ancestry' (by analogy with how "American" is used in the sample I gave), there's no need for self-description as "British"; only proof that the person is a member of the British population.
"what about other Europeans who don't need to apply for residency to stay here?"
Since this is about people of Latin American origin, I'd rather we left the EU out of it. However, it seems trivial to me that a permanent resident is a permanent resident — meaning that an EU citizen who settles in the UK would meet that inclusion criterion automatically. SamEV (talk) 01:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I realise that the EU might not be relevant here, but it is if we want consistency with other articles. If permanent residency becomes one of the ways someone can be considered a "Briton" then lots of EU citizens living in the UK are Britons, including, as I mentioned before, Arsène Wenger and Sven-Göran Eriksson, who it seems absurd to label as Britons.
However, I think the problem I have with your argument stems from you equating "Britons with Latin American ancestry" with "British population with Latin American ancestry". These are not the same thing because Briton does not equal a member of the British population. If you look at the British people article, it starts "British people, or Britons, are the native inhabitants of Great Britain or citizens of the United Kingdom, of the Isle of Man, one of the Channel Islands, or of one of the British overseas territories". If the article title was called "British population with Latin American ancestry", then I'd be fine with including permanent residents, but as it stands this doesn't make sense. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
"...Arsène Wenger and Sven-Göran Eriksson..."
Yes, I too would prefer that people who live there merely for professional reasons (such as football players and coaches) not be included. As I said, this is not about Gilberto.
But it isn't my equation, Larry, it is, from what I've observed, and as I've explained already, Wikipedia's equation. Speaking generally about such phrases, then, 'X American' is also used in the sense of 'US resident of X ancestry', irrespectively of citizenship status. This is so in Korean American, Italian American, or in the previous examples I gave. It isn't my convention, Larry, but Wikipedia's. SamEV (talk) 00:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, well I sense we're not getting anywhere with this. I don't think it is Wikipedia's convention to do that - some articles do, some don't. Anyway, I'm away for a few days so this is my last edit here for a while. Hopefully this will get sorted out while I'm away. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
"I don't think it is Wikipedia's convention to do that - some articles do, some don't."
Yet you failed to give even one example. Still, even if true that some articles do not, they'd only mark the exception to the rule. SamEV (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, some examples that use citizenship as part of the definition in the introduction: British Asian, British Indian, and Italian Briton. There seem to be a range of different definitions in use in the articles at Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom. That's why I don't think we can say that there is an established convention. If non-citizens are to be included, wouldn't it be better to rename the article as per Americans in Britain, Australians in Britain and Canadians in the United Kingdom? Cordless Larry (talk) 08:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Sure, Larry, they contain the word "citizen" in the lead, but what about the rest of the article? Those statistics they give count, too. Convention is not judged solely based on the opening sentence: there's a whole article to consider. We already discussed other articles that begin by stating "citizens", but which turn out not to be exclusively about citizens, remember? What proof can you offer that the 2.5 million Asian British are all citizens? It's not at Statistics UK. Google turned up nothing. Where is it?
"If non-citizens are to be included, wouldn't it be better to rename the article as per Americans in Britain, Australians in Britain and Canadians in the United Kingdom?"
I don't think it would be. I see no problem with applying the local demonym to all the inhabitants of a country, regardless of citizenship status, per current - that's right - convention. SamEV (talk) 21:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that the statistics contradict the definitions at the start of the articles. My point is not that citizenship is a convention, but that there isn't one. But, in my view, citizenship should be way we define who is British. As I already mentioned, to apply the local demonym to all the inhabitants of a country means calling foreign premiership footballers and football managers British, for example. It would also make retired Brits in Spain Spanish, the Pope Italian, Peter Mandleson Belgian, and so on. It also contradicts the definition of a Briton at British people as "the native inhabitants of Great Britain or citizens of the United Kingdom". One way round this would be to rename the article as I suggested, but you reject this. This debate is going nowhere though so I suggest we try to encourage more people to contribute. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:04, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Larry, I apologize: I had no idea that you'd replied already.
"My point is not that citizenship is a convention, but that there isn't one."
How do you figure that, when for every example we've looked at I either proved that it includes citizens as well as non-citizens, or you've been unable to prove that it's otherwise? In the absence of any significant examples of citizens-only articles (not even one, in fact), the existence of the convention is a clear fact.
"But, in my view, citizenship should be way we define who is British."
Then Larry, go to the appropriate policy pages and lobby for a change there. You can't just pick on one article or one group of people and demand that they be treated differently.
"As I already mentioned..."
Yes, you did. And I'll mention again the responses I gave: this isn't about transients; it's not about footballers, or about the Pope, or whoever else you wish to inject into the discussion.
"It also contradicts the definition of a Briton at British people as "the native inhabitants of Great Britain or citizens of the United Kingdom"."
Firstly, you can't use Wikipedia itself as a source, per Wikipedia policy. What matters are that article's sources. Secondly, the definition is complete OR. Thirdly, what matters are the sources the article employs, which I quote:
Compact Oxford Dictionary, Briton:
"a British person."[2]
The word "British", in turn, it defines as: "adjective relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom."[3]
Needless to say, Larry, Oxford passed the buck. It does not commit to any meaningful definition of either term, instead leaving them entirely open to personal interpretation.
Merriam Webster, British: "the people of Great Britain or the Commonwealth of Nations"[4]
Merriam Wester, Briton: "a native or subject of Great Britain; especially : englishman"[5]
"The people"? Does that mean 'the inhabitants'? All of them? Does "subject" mean that as well? Whose decision as to what that means: Yours? Mine? Someone else's? Wikipedia sure doesn't seem to want it. Thus, I think your guess is as good as mine, mine as good as yours, mate.
The American Heritage Dictionary gives its relevant definition of British as "The people of Great Britain."[6]
That again is vague. And I note that there's nothing about citizenship there. Most relevant of all to our discussion, its very first definition of "Briton" is: "A native or inhabitant of Great Britain."[7]
Now that's not open to interpretation, is it? SamEV (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, that's a lot to respond to and as I said, I think we need other people to contribute. But a few points:

  • The statistics in the articles I suggested as examples might include non-citizens but the definitions given in the same articles do not. That's why I'm claiming there's no consensus - because even within the same articles, there is a contradiction. There may be consensus in the use of statistics, but not for the definition.
  • I'm not using British people as a source, merely suggesting that there should be consistency across Wikipedia.
  • I realise that it might appear that I'm picking on one article, but I edited it originally because I felt that it prominently featured people who were not British, such as Gilberto. I felt the need to correct this, and the discussion has continued from there.
  • You say that "this isn't about transients; it's not about footballers, or about the Pope, or whoever else you wish to inject into the discussion". My point is that we need an objective definition of who is British. It would help if you could state what you think the definition is/should be since I'm confused when you suggest that it's about residence, but then admit that you wouldn't include people such as footballers who are resident. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
"That's why I'm claiming there's no consensus..."
You know, one glaring problem with your position, is this: What's your problem, then, if due to lack of consensus all kinds of definitions are, apparently, allowable? That would include this one. And as you can see, it has the support of several active editors. So why do you seek to impose your preference here?
"...because even within the same articles, there is a contradiction. There may be consensus in the use of statistics, but not for the definition."
And the contradictions redound to use of the more expansive definition by the article: the whole article. Why do you insist on giving more weight to the definition over the remainder of those articles, wherein they discuss all kinds of facts and figures involving citizens and non-citizens alike? If anything, the definitions are the odd ones, as they stand in such contrast to the rest of each of those articles.
"I'm not using British people as a source, merely suggesting that there should be consistency across Wikipedia."
So am I.
"I'm confused when you suggest that it's about residence, but then admit that you wouldn't include people such as footballers who are resident"
What's so confusing about it? Do most foreign footballers and coaches stay, make the UK their permanent home, just like the economic and political immigrants? I think not. Feel free to present evidence otherwise. But unlike you, I admit that's just MY personal opinion and I wouldn't much insist on it. But it's obvious that you've expanded your mini-crusade beyond the footballers to anyone who's not a citizen, and is thereby undeserving of being labelled "Briton", in your opinion. SamEV (talk) 16:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I accept that this isn't the place to discuss wider Wikipedia policy and that the debate has gone far beyond my initial concerns about footballers being included. I'm glad that we at least seem to be in agreement that footballers shouldn't be included. I'll just a make a reponse on the your comment, "Do most foreign footballers and coaches stay, make the UK their permanent home, just like the economic and political immigrants? I think not." There's a bit of a problem here in that we don't know which immigrants will end up staying in the UK, whether they be footballers or not. To assume that an economic or political migrant is going to stay in the UK is surely to fall foul of WP:NOTCRYSTAL, is it not? Hence my argument that citizenship would be a more objective criteria but, as I say, I now accept that this is not the place to discuss that. A further problem is that, even if we agree that footballers should be excluded, they will still be included in the statistics because of the way the UK census collects data based on country of birth. By the way, I'm in no way claiming that anyone is "undeserving of being labelled 'Briton'". My concern was rather with how to define Britishness in an objective way. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:51, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand. I hope the policies and guidelines soon address this more usefully, though the lack of activity at the relevant pages is rather discouraging. SamEV (talk) 17:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. In the meantime, some effort to try to find references for this article wouldn't go a miss. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Plus, the main source other than the census, here states that its figures are "guesstimates", which is a bit worrying! Cordless Larry (talk) 18:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I will try to help. Not today, though, as I'm swamped.
Yes, too bad about the guesstimates. But it appears they're the best we've got, and since the source seems reputable enough, they should do for now. They should be described as "guesstimates", though, per the source itself. SamEV (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Hi, saw the note on WT:ETHNIC. I wish there were a cut 'n dried answer, but questions that revolve the issue of identity are almost always kinda messy—especially, of course, for large countries with significant populations of immigrants/migrant workers etc.. As far as stats go, we usually have no alternative other than to accept those generated by the government. Sometimes the government has an interest in manipulating or otherwise influencing those stats. Sometimes the stats are themselves based on fuzzy definitions. It's always a mess. So the mess in Wikipedia is not a function of Wikipedia's failure opr weakness; it is a function of the state of the world. As for British—the easiest thing to do is define them as the legal citizens of the land who additionally have reason to self-identify with another nation or land... That is not a perfect answer, but I am not sure that perfect answers are available.Ling.Nut (talk) 05:26, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Could you please expound on "legal citizens of the land who additionally have reason to self-identify with another nation or land"? SamEV (talk) 18:45, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Look, we're grasping for oil-coated straws if we try to nail down precisely who is or is not a "Briton with Latin American ancestry". No matter how you define it, you will end up making someone or other unhappy. Upon further reflection, I retract my earlier suggestion and offer a new one. Here's my suggestion, then: Remove all names from the article. If you wanna make a Category:Britons with Latin American ancestry and then tag each article individually, then may the sun shine on your face and may the wind be at your back as you pursue your golden dreams. In that case, if there are edit wars regarding the status of any individual, they will occur where they should occur: on the talk page of that individual's article. Moreover, I kinda suspect that such limited warfare is far less likely to occur than are wars on the umbrella page (here)... My further opinion, though, is that I actually hate all those categories such as Category:Eurasian people. I mean, holy cow, just look at all the category cruft on the bottom of the Jessica Alba article. [Alternatively, you could just look at Jessica Alba— a far more pleasant way to pass the time. ;-)]. I am starting to believe that all such categories add exactly zero-point-zero value to the encyclopedia, and actually exist as the outcome of some rather lame attempt for someone or other to get a feeling that they are somehow contributing. But I also believe that if I tried to WP:CfD those categories, the aforementioned folks would come out howling and swinging. So delete all the names and push all the cats through WP:CfD if you have the endurance for the screamfest; else follow the path of least resistance and merely delete the names from the article. Done talking. Ling.Nut (talk) 12:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

That wouldn't entirely solve the problem though, would it, because there is still the issue of the statistics, which include non-citizens, and we can't really change that. I increasingly think a move to Latin Americans in the United Kingdom would be the best solution. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Ling Nut, perhaps it is impossible to please everyone, but we can't shirk the responsibility to define this group, and removing the names and pictures is no substitute for that. And since this is the central article, this is the ideal place to decide that issue - well, it's the second most ideal place, after the Wikipedia policy pages, that is...
Larry, "Latin Americans in the United Kingdom" (wasn't that a previous title?) would be an assault on the Britishness of the very citizens you insist are the true Britons with Latin American ancestry.
I submit that the answer is 1) as ever, WP:NPOV: we cite every important definition, and 2) Wikipedia conven... er prevailing practices at Wikipedia (sorry, Larry. I almost wrote that word you hate). But doesn't the article adhere to both already? SamEV (talk) 04:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
True, I can see that "Latin Americans in the United Kingdom" is also problematic when you look at it like that. I have no problem with the word convention - see, I said it. Not sure what the convention for the name of such articles is though since there seems to be a mix: Britons with Latin American ancestry, Polish British, Americans in Britain, Canadians in the United Kingdom, Spanish migration to Britain, and so on. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
See my reply in the next section. This one is getting too long. SamEV (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Title

Larry, of 122 pages and subcategories in Category:Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom, here's a full accounting and the forms of the titles of the articles and subcategories relating to ethnic groups (some are not; more below):

  • 24 are in the form 'X British' (including the general articles "White British" and "Black British")
  • 20 'British X' (including "British people")
  • 19 'X Briton(s)'
  • 1 'Briton(s) X' ("Britons with Latin American ancestry")
  • 6 'X in the UK'
  • 2 'X in Britain'
  • 10 + 3 (these three are categories) oldest groups: Cornish people, Welsh people, Gaels, Scottish people, English people, Ulster Scots people, Ulster-Scots (cat), Irish Traveller, Irish Travellers (cat), Scottish Travellers, Scottish Travellers (cat), Anglo-Irish, Gibraltarian people
  • 1 the "Anglo" article
  • 2 in the form 'Anglo-X people'
  • 15 in the form 'X migration to Britain'. These articles are not exactly about ethnic groups, but about a historic process (migration). I don't consider them appropriate substitutes for true ethnic group articles.
  • 12 groups with titles that do not refer to the UK, but which were included because they have sections about their communities in the UK, or whose inclusion seems entirely inappropriate or random: Albanians, Brazilian diaspora, Desi, Greeks, List of Jats, Malays in Egypt, Martha and eve, Persian people, Roma people, Somali people, South African diaspora, Tamil diaspora
  • 7 general articles on UK demographics and census: United Kingdom Census 2001, Demography of England, White Other (United Kingdom Census), Other ethnic group (United Kingdom Census), Immigrants to the United Kingdom, Immigration to the United Kingdom (1922-present day), Census 2001 Ethnic Codes

So here we have 72 articles specifically about UK ethnic groups of what could be called more recent, immigrant origins (as opposed to the older British groups, or "indigenous British groups", as some might prefer; let's not make a federal case out of this terminology), with titles that refer to the UK, and 63 of them are in the form 'X British', or 'British X', or 'X Briton(s)'. Obviously, the inclusion of "British" or "Briton(s)" in the titles has overwhelming prevalence. SamEV (talk) 00:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Nice work with the counting. In light of your comment about 'X migration to Britain' articles, it would probably be a good idea to re-word the opening sentence, which is about migration to Britain. Also, would Latin American Britons or British Latin Americans not be a better title since this seems is the only article with 'ancestry' form? Cordless Larry (talk) 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and yes. Its original title was Latin American Briton. Then user Cop 663 changed it to Latin American migration to Britain (hence the opening sentence), to which I replied by renaming it to the present title, as a compromise. SamEV (talk) 03:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, well I think we should rule out British Latin American since that could be taken to mean Latin Americans of British ancestry (and indeed is already in use for that). Latin American British or Latin American Briton sound better to me. In the meantime, I'll also have a go at re-drafting the opening line. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Larry. As you can see, I've just moved it back to basically the original title.
As I said already, whatever we know of the data we present, we should say so: guesstimates, all residents included, citizens only, etc; whatever the case may be. If you want to write of how there are no consistent definitions for "Briton" and thus for "Latin American Briton", go ahead, too. SamEV (talk) 20:57, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template: British Latinos

User Stevvvv4444 (Talk) created and is the sole author of the following Template:British Latinos (the OR tag is my addition): Template:British Latinos I believe this is a completely OR template. Does anyone wish to comment at Template talk:British Latinos? Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 13:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:British Latinos

Template:British Latinos has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — The Ogre (talk) 15:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging

The articles Argentines in the United Kingdom, Brazilian British, Colombian British and Cuban British should all be merged into this one, as they are very short. Cop 663 (talk) 14:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, Cop. You were (almost) right to rename the article. But I think each subgroup should retain its own article. What's the harm? SamEV (talk) 00:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
What's the harm in merging them? It might encourage collaboration among editors working on these articles, which are at present stubby. Cop 663 (talk) 20:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it worth the risk? :->
But seriously, they're not all that stubby. But that's a judgment call that each of us has the right to make for himself. SamEV (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I also disagree, I have helped create many of the articles in question, they contain a signifacant amount more of information than the Latin American article, which despite easily summarises the other ethnic groups, it takes away identity, the countries of Latin America have many similarities and many differences (i.e. ethnic groups - Hispanics, Blacks, Asians and Caucasians vary throughout country as well as language - the majority of Latin Americans actually speak Portuguese not Spanish, due to Brazil's large population). I agree with Cop 663, what harm is there in keeping Argentines in the United Kingdom, Brazilian British, Colombian British and Cuban British, they are certainly an improvement on just being contained in the Latin American article. Also the Wikiproject table at the top of this page states 'This article is part of WikiProject Latinos, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Latinos and Hispanics on Wikipedia', surely keeping the current articles as they are would help achieve this. Stevvvv4444 (talk) 16:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
No, my point is that this page, Britons with Latin American ancestry, has nothing in it really, just a list of links to other (stubby) articles. If we merged those articles into this one (obviously keeping separate sections for each individual country), suddenly we'd actually have some content on this page. Just a thought. Cop 663 (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree. There really isn't enough material in the individual country articles. My impression of living in Lambeth, where there is quite a large Latin American population, is that it really tends to be one community rather than lots of little ones based on exact national origins (though it might be good to have the input of a Latin American Briton here).Indisciplined (talk) 22:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe if more information was found for this article, it would be find. There is no harm in keeping this article how it is, other ethnic groups in the UK have their own articles (Italians, Jamaicans etc), I suggest this, and the other Latin American articles remain as they are, as some are very different cultural wise. The main Latin American Briton article should remain, as should this (it could be compared to the Black British page and the Nigerian British page). Please consider keeping it as it will do no harm, and will help expand knowledge of the UK's ethnic communities. The Cuban Americans have an article, so why should the Cuban Britons not, it is a cultural as well as historical refrence, and needs to remain to be as it is. Thankyou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.194.114.11 (talk) 13:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that I have added enough noteworthy information on the Brazilian British article to allow it to stay, it is certainly an extremely important ethnic group in the UK, with over 60,000 Brazilians in London alone, and almost 150,000 in the UK as a whole. There are many articles representing smaller ethnic groups on Wikipedia which remain. The Brazilian British community really needs to be noticed, as it is a significant and growing one in the UK, just read the first paragraph on the article 'The fourth largest Brazilian diaspora on the planet!' Stevvvv4444 (talk) 13:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the merging template from the articles in question, because there seems to be more people opposed to merging than in favour of combining them. There seems to be little progress or reasoning behind merging them, and I believe it would be best to keep the articles as they are as they all contain relevant information that helps distinguish each community, as most other ethnic minority communities in the UK have been. Thank you. Stevvvv4444 (talk) 17:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Total population in infobox

My last edit was saved prematurely, as I was typing my edit summary. What I was writing is that I understand your point, 90.210.101.121. However, the figures have to add up. One says 76K South American immigrants; the other says 100K UK-born. That adds up to 176K, not 250K, or 500K. So change the other figures, preferably - certainly! - with sources. Then change the total to reflect that. SamEV (talk) 18:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Main groups section wording

The main groups section starts with "The Latin American category comprises...", which leave me wondering, according to who? The article already establishes that there is no Latin American category in the census. Can anyone suggest a better wording, because "category" sounds somewhat more official than what is subsequently described. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:16, 9 June 2008 (UTC)