Talk:Lateralus (song)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 May 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

It seems to me like a lot of this article is opinion and speculation, and therefore is not really worth covering.

But, what's the real meaning of the word "Lateralus"?

Perhaps inspired by the rectus capitis lateralis muscle. Lateral thinking, get a backbone, and all that. –Pomte 01:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] time signatures

can we include something about the time signatures used in this song (987 in the chorus, use of 5/4 in the rest of the song, etc.)? Deutschebag17 06:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced material

I copied this comment and my response from my talk page, so others can comment. Dicklyon 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted your recent changes to the song Lateralus. You stated you couldn't find sources.. Let's look at the changes.

"The Fibonacci sequence shares a relationship with the golden ratio. The golden ratio is used to describe spirals, which are mentioned several times later in the lyrics." You could not find a source that the Fibonacci sequence shares a relationship with the golden ratio? You can't find lyrics on Tool's own website showing that "spirals" are mentioned several times? Hmm

The problem with this one is the middle bit "The golden ratio is used to describe spirals;" it's simply not true except for one very particular spiral. Therefore, the connection of the sprial lyrics to fibonacci is OK, there being a Fibonacci spiral (assuming you find a source that analyzed this song that way), but connecting golden ratio is a stretch not supported by the sources. Dicklyon 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Then change it to say "The golden ratio is used to describe a particular spiral", don't delete it. Wikidan829 01:32, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"Keenan first begins singing 1 minute and 37 seconds into the song, which equates to 1.617 minutes. The golden ratio is approximately 1.618." We can't source the 1:37 part, but it is indeed true, I'm sure Wikipedia isn't the ONLY place that mentions it. You couldn't find a source that states the golden ratio is approx 1.618?

The finding of the relationship between the song and golden ratio is what is unsourced. It doesn't matter if you can verify that coincidence. What matters is whether that analysis of the song is sourced, versus your (or some unnamed editor's) original research. Dicklyon 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"The time signatures of the chorus change from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8, symbolizing a spiral. 987 is also a Fibonacci number." Same as the second line.

There no source for connecting the time signal to the spiral or the fibonacci number. Is there? Dicklyon 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, it's time signature(more reason why you shouldn't be touching this), and the article I'm using as a source states this: "The core of it is lateral thinking. And the human element of the spiral, the lateral." Carey helpfully adds, "It was originally titled 9-8-7. For the time signatures. Then it turned out that 987 was the 17th step of the Fibonacci sequence (in which each integer is equal to the sum of the preceding two). So that was cool."

Leave it alone, I'll find your sources. Wikidan829 22:19, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Your revert comment said some things just are, we don't need sources. That's incorrect. When you clean it up to what's sourcable, put it back. For now, it's out. I did look for sources, by the way, and found a couple of forum discussions, nothing like a reliable source. Dicklyon 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I do believe I told you on your talk page (if you didn't check) that I'm working on sources, leave the freaking article alone so I can add them without someone dicking around with it. Some people have jobs and can't sit on Wikipedia all day working on this stuff. Why not make yourself useful and try changing the article or putting in things like "citation needed" instead of just REMOVING chunks. This information is readily available. Wikidan829 01:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

From WP:V: "Editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor." Relax and think of what Tool would say about this. The information can wait, and if anyone actually comes here looking for the song's meaning over the next couple of days, which are hugely theorized on various other places, they're probably not going to lose sleep over it. –Pomte 01:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct. However I let Dick know that I was getting his references and he reverts it again. He can challenge it in the talk page, but unless it's blatantly wrong like "Lateralus is about how much Maynard likes Dicks' mom", it should not be removed unless thoroughly discussed. No patience! Wikidan829 01:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Dick, I clarified the article to specific "golden spiral" instead of "all spirals", as you requested. Good catch.

I left the "song starts at 1m37s" alone. This is merely a statement that can be proven by anyone who has access to the song. There is no myth or opinion here. I cannot source it without causing a copyright infringement, anyone who would even care about this article already has the song anyway. The next statement, that the Golden Ratio is approx. 1.618 is correct. It is completely left up to the reader to decide if it was done intentionally or not. Regardless, the information should be there to point it out for their observation. This is clearly NPOV.

As far as the "time signal" (another reason you shouldn't be touching this), I think you meant "time signature", which is a very well known music term. I added a reference to an interview with the band. This is sufficient evidence to use what is in the article.

Thanks for sourcing the signature bit, and sorry about my signal typo. I took out the mention of golden ratio and 1.617, since these are still unsourced and unverifiable. The reason I care is that this stuff keeps spilling over to the golden ratio article, a famous accreter of unsourced junk, so I thought I'd try to preempt that by taking it out of where it's coming from. I expect you'll report back if you find any analysis of these Tools in terms of the golden ratio, and if it's a reliable source we'll be happy to have it in the other article, too. By the way, you need to study up on wp:v and wp:or. Dicklyon 03:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and you also need to bone up on WP:CIV and WP:AGF. No need to make profanities of my name. We're all just trying to do a good job here. Dicklyon 03:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to thank El hombre for helping me find some of these. Wikidan829 02:02, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, he was good. Even admitted, on your talk, "I don't know if it will work as a source for the specific material on Lateralus (song) that was removed but it could be used elsewhere." I think we converged on something I can live with now, but if any mention of golden ratio comes back, it will need a reliable source. Dicklyon 14:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fibonacci and verse rhythm

This one is more for Mr Lyon. Not beating a dead horse, but would like to make sure this is completely covered. You removed the reference to the song starting at 1 minute 37 seconds(and some change), which is about 1.617, for what reason?

Also, the fact that their rhythm of the verse, which is obviously intentional considering the context that the song was written in(as indicated by interviews), is unsourced, does it make it original research? Why is this more valid than stating when Maynard starts singing? Wikidan829 16:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just a note

Please be aware of WP:NOR (no original research) and in particular WP:SYN (synthesis) when putting together articles like this one - Wikipedia should be a summary of what independent sources say about the subject. Note that I don't think it's actually been breached in the present article but just a hazard that needs to be kept in mind. Orderinchaos 17:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lyrics

I think we are pressing our luck with a copyvio on the lyrics even though they are part of the Fib sequence. the_undertow ^talk 07:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:L4T3R4LUS.JPG

Image:L4T3R4LUS.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dead source link

For the record, the first reference (http://www.cdicarlo.com/paper_04maynard.htm) is dead. I've left it up so someone may be able to explore that site and find the source that it's trying to link to. --Evan ¤ Seeds 20:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)