Talk:Las Vegas

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. -- tariqabjotu 00:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Las Vegas (disambiguation) → Las Vegas —(Discuss)— Being discussed at RfD, was suggested that it should be flagged up here for additional input. WjBscribe 18:39, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

• Note: The RFD request has been closed in favor of the WP:RM request. However, there is discussion at the RFD request, that should be taken into account in this debate. -- JLaTondre 11:54, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Oppose Redirect Las Vegas to Las Vegas, Nevada. It seems obvious to me that the vast majority of people typing in "Las Vegas" expect to find precisely the content of Las Vegas, Nevada.Joeldl 08:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose and redirect Las Vegas to Las Vegas, Nevada. I understand that the strip is not technically in the city of Las Vegas, Nevada, but there is a prominent mention of the strip in the intro to the Las Vegas, Nevada article that can send users to the article about the strip; links to Las Vegas that are meant for the strip are wrong only in an official sense. Thanks for setting up the discussion here. Dekimasuよ! 08:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. The purpose of a redirect is NOT to send a reader to the wrong article. As explained below and in many other discussions, most of the links are not destined for the city article. The logic above is supporting directing readers to the wrong article and then leaving it up to the reader to figure out the correct article, often by going to the dab page. This approach is exactly what the first entry in the guideline says to avoid, albeit with a second automatic redirect. I don't see how expecting the user to figure this out is better. Redirects should facilitate disambiguation as the guideline says, note the example they use as a target America. In Wikipedia:Disambiguation we see that it says what article would they most likely be expecting to view as a result? In this case there is no primary, with the city well down on the list, so there is no likely primary target hence the dab is the correct target. Do the least damage is the best choice and directing to one of the least common intended targets is clearly not in the best interests of the reader or the encyclopedia. Vegaswikian 17:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

• While I fully support the dab guidelines and I understand what you're saying, I feel that the best way to handle this particular case is to expand the coverage of the strip in the article on Las Vegas, Nevada. I feel that the distinction disallowing the strip as a subtopic of the main topic "Las Vegas, Nevada" is artificial. This means that if the Las Vegas, Nevada article handles the strip as a subtopic, links to that page aren't really broken. Dekimasuよ! 00:29, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• This makes sense. Usually an article about a major city should contain information about parts of the metropolitan area of major interest, even if they are outside city limits. Joeldl 01:06, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
• Well, even if this was the decided direction, there is still a lot about the city that needs to be added to that article and it already is a rather large 40K. I'm not sure how much more we want to add to the article. So suggesting that a major topic be added would hurt in the long run. While a bit more on the Strip could be added, the current article would need to remain with most of the information. Vegaswikian 02:54, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support The fact that the conversation can go for this long demonstrates that there is no primary topic. Regardless of this, I'd also encourage the regular editors of the Las Vegas (Nevada) pages to consider whether in fact the article named "Las Vegas, Nevada" should be about the Las Vegas metropolitan area, and the city centre/downtown should be in a new article "City of Las Vegas" (accepting that the existing article with that name needs to be moved out of the way), or "City of Las Vegas, Nevada" if the other article can't be moved. This change of focus would likely require some moving of text between the articles and should be thoroughly discussed first. It would not change the need for Las Vegas to be the dab page. --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• It is a fallacy to say that the conversation going on for a long time means that there is no primary topic. That would make sense if some were arguing that Topic A was more important, and others that Topic B is more important. Instead, what we have is some saying that Topic A is much more important than Topic B, and others that Topic A is not much more important than Topic B, which is precisely the issue we are determining. In any event, nobody referring specifically to the Strip calls it "Las Vegas". Most likely, they think it is part of Las Vegas, as part of the Strip indeed is. The fact that many people want to know about the Strip when they refer to Las Vegas, Nevada is precisely because they expect to find information about it in the article about the city, not because they are looking for an article about the Strip itself. Joeldl 06:49, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• So we tell a little white lie rather then educate? And yes, some say that a block or two from the strip are in the city. Not significant. Vegaswikian 07:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Would you not mention the airport because it's in Paradise? Nobody is saying we should lie. It can be mentioned that the Strip is not entirely located within city limits. A division of information based on city limits will force people to look in two places when it should all be in one place. Of course, you could put it all in the article about the metropolitan area, but I suppose it's something of a convention in an encyclopedia that the primary article for a city and its vicinity is at the name of the city rather than at the article for the metropolitan area.Joeldl 07:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Support. I concur that there is no single primary topic. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:39, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support per Vegaswikian. As his work with the disambig links show, there is a lot of different meanings that editors and readers are looking for when they type in Las Vegas and there is no "Primary Topic" preference given to Las Vegas, Nevada. Hence the purpose and benefit of Las Vegas being a disambig page. It is for the better service of the reader to get to the article they want to get to. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. This makes sense. The current destination for Las Vegas (here) is at odds with present disambiguation policy. Moving this page there will allow the various links to it to be properly disambiguated. It is clear that there is more than one thing someone might be looking for when they type "Las Vegas" and a disambig page is the best way to help navigation. WjBscribe 07:24, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
• Support. Vegaswikian makes a good case. A disambig page seems the best way to go. Bolivian Unicyclist 12:57, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
• Comment This is one of the oddest move polls I've seen. It seems common sense to me that "Las Vegas" usually means "Las Vegas, Nevada". I've reproduced below the top twenty Google hits for "Las Vegas" (in English, -Wikipedia). Other than in the two references to the TV show, there is nothing that tells me that "Las Vegas" means anything other than the city Las Vegas, Nevada. While a "Las Vegas hotel" may be outside city limits, if you search for a "Los Angeles motel" on the Motel 6 website, most will not be in Los Angleles itself, and the same could be said for virtually any major city. Even "the Las Vegas Strip" just means "the strip belonging the city called Las Vegas", despite the fact it's not all in Las Vegas. I doubt that people linking to Las Vegas expect that they're linking to anything besides Las Vegas, Nevada.Joeldl 14:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • This goes to common usage. Your information below shows that when people use Google they are looking for general information about the area and clearly not about the city specifically. The data prove that at worst there is no primary target and at best it is clearly not the city. That's why if the dab page is not the correct target, the Las Vegas metropolitan area would be the next best choice. Vegaswikian 19:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't see anything in the examples that distinguishes Las Vegas from any other major city. Have a look at the articles Los Angeles, California and Greater Los Angeles Area. The Los Angeles article covers many topics of interest to the entire area, such as past earthquakes and climate, making it clear that it is intended to cover many issues of area-wide interest, rather than restricting attention to what is specifically of interest to the city itself. It has information such as: "The metropolitan area contains the headquarters of even more companies, many of whom wish to escape the city's high taxes." It contains informaion about airports which are not inside city limits. It contains information about sports teams such as the Anaheim Ducks, not located within city limits, but of significance to the city itself. As I said before, there is something of a convention that many issues of area-wide importance should be covered at the article for a city, rather than moving it all to the article about the metropolitan area. The data do not show what you say at all. To the extent that people are interested in the area, there is nothing showing that the situation is any different than for Los Angeles, in that people usually say "I'm travelling to Los Angeles" rather than "the Los Angeles area". Joeldl 01:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments

Las Vegas means different places to different people. For now lets ignore Las Vegas, New Mexico. Reading the paper and listening to people talk it seems that when someone says Las Vegas, they are talking mostly about the area of town know as the Las Vegas Strip which is not in the city. I believe, as do others, that most readers and most links are not about the city but the surrounding Las Vegas metropolitan area or The Strip. So moving the dab page to Las Vegas will allow reader and editors to select the correct target. Based on the dabs I have done, I'd say that maybe 10% were for the city and maybe another 10% I could not figure out where they should be directed. The remained were split between the two articles listed above or to the county article. This issue was raised in the settlements naming convention discussion and consensus there was that Vegas was a bit odd and this type of approach could be appropriate. There is no reason to have a redirect to the dab and the city article is not the primary target. In fact there is likely no primary target so there should not be a redirect at Las Vegas but the dab should be there. Vegaswikian 07:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Here are excerpts from the top 20 Google hits for "Las Vegas" (in English, -Wikipedia).

1. Get a deal on a Las Vegas flight.
2. Official Las Vegas Tourism Web Site
3. Planning a trip to Las Vegas? Find deals on Las Vegas hotels and entertainment. Purchase tickets to Las Vegas shows on our website.
4. Las Vegas, Nevada (Official City of Las Vegas Web Site)
5. Want to know what’s next on the Las Vegas TV show series?
6. McCarran International Airport - LAS. Serving Las Vegas, Henderson, and surrounding communitees of Clark County in southern Nevada.
7. The Las Vegas Chamber of Commerce
8. Las Vegas Online Entertainment Guide contains over 5000 pages of Las Vegas information including ratings and comments about all Las Vegas Hotel/Casinos.
9. Official site for the Bellagio resort hotel on the Las Vegas Strip
10. Las Vegas, Nevada (89044) Conditions & Forecast
11. University of Nevada, Las Vegas
12. "Las Vegas" (2003) — this is a TV series title.
13. craigslist: las vegas classifieds for jobs, apartments, personals ...
14. Las Vegas Monorail - Home
15. Las Vegas Sun
16. Author's Aunt Mac tells how blacks persevered in Las Vegas.
17. National Weather Service - NWS Las Vegas
18. 2007 International CES, January 8-11, Las Vegas
19. Las Vegas Travel Deals
20. outside the luxurious Paris Las Vegas

Joeldl 14:40, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.