Talk:Larry Norman

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Good article Larry Norman was a nominee for good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
May 13, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed
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[edit] Cleanup

This article needs many fixes, it's written very unprofessionally. Already fixed the first paragraph. Wanka 20:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

My intent is to clean this up and make it much more professional. Give me time and hope Larry hangs out til I get this done. Ee60640 09:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

There is no clear history. The After Break-up section seems out of place. This section has to come after his history with People!. Some childhood history may be interesting, since he started writing music from an early age.

A lot of the People! history seems to be a cut and paste job using the Wikipedia entry for People! entry as the source. This should be reduced to a reference. 70.88.124.205 06:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Horrendous disc

Any idea how long it was shelved for ? (How long they took it around companies, and when it was finally ready) ? -- Beardo 18:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

People have been adding full pages about Horrendous Disc into this article, without any citations. This is a giant headache, so I'm asking that all information about the article be placed in the main article Horrendous Disc. I'll provide a link in the main text.

[edit] This article or section does not cite its references or sources.

References for what specifically?

Anything and everything, really. An article this length should have 10 - 20 inline references. -- Beardo 01:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a ton of citations to random statements that to me sound more like legend than truth. Please show proof of these statements (such as Townsend being heavily influenced by Norman to write Tommy) or otherwise they should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamvery (talk • contribs) at 16:35, 21 November 2006

After a LOT of work, this article finally has citations for all of its statements. Takemybooksaway (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Re: the "Tommy" statement, I have balanced the language of it to represent Townshend's point of view as well. Takemybooksaway (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] plagiarism

much of this is directly from Larry's bios on his own Web site

http://www.larrynorman.com/bio.html71.155.212.206 07:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Much written about Larry Norman at People! - accurate?

For those interested, it appears that the user at IP address 71.237.162.156 has written much about Larry Norman in the People! article. I'm not sure of the accuracy of the information, but am hoping someone will check. This is the same IP address that was used to blank the Larry Norman page a few times (see Special:Contributions/71.237.162.156). Thought this might interest someone, Jamie L.talk 19:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article cleanup and summary expansion

I standardized the article references for wikipedia mark-up and then expanded the summary and rewrote it, hopefully to make the article tone and verifiability better reflect manual of style guidelines for biographies of living people.

The references still include a lot of material from Larry's site, but (I think) the majority of what's in the summary also has strong secondary sources to back it up.

There still appears to be material in the main article that needs stronger citations, especially regarding some of the information relating to his influence on other artists.

Some of the language and material may also need to be copy edited for clarity and double checked to help strengthen the neutrality of the article as well. Awotter (talk) 05:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help (and for welcoming me to Wikipedia.) I've added the citation for the Bob Dylan references. Takemybooksaway (talk) 18:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Limit use of CCM sources

After looking through the article, I think it's best that we limit the amount of sources that come from CCM industry sites, fanzines, etc. First, using these skews the language of the article toward the point of view of one body of music that he's had an influence on. His bio is then viewed through their lens.

A second, bigger problem is that these sources are rife with revisionism. Some of the sources retroactively call Norman's early albums "CCM albums" when no such industry existed at the time. A similar problem occurs when these articles label him a "Christian rock" artist or idolize him as "the father of Christian rock" when no such genre existed at the time and he in fact recorded on mainstream rock labels. (Capitol, MGM, Verve)

In effect, this is like calling Muddy Waters a rock artist because he influenced rock music and rock bands covered his music. CCM fanzines tend to try to retroactively co-opt Norman into their industry instead of note his influence on it, and we should avoid this kind of revisionism in the Wikipedia article. Takemybooksaway (talk) 16:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that you need to let references speak for themselves, especially when they come from strong sources, deleting the phrase "father of Christian rock" for example is very close to expressing a personal point of view, especially when it is used over and over again in mainstream publications like Christianity Today. All that I have done so far is to make the format as close as possible to an encyclopedic lead summary as I can. The few statements that I looked at and changed in the body of the article were changed because they did not reflect either Norman's primary statements or had any strong secondary information. I'm trying to be very careful at this point because the article in the end has to be as neutral as possible. Thanks.Awotter (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

My intention was not to remove the reference completely, but to relocate it to the section denoting his influence on Contemporary Christian music. While the sources should speak for themselves, my concern is that some of the sources themselves are not neutral. To assert that Norman's albums from the late 60s, for example, are "Contemporary Christian music" albums is not honest. Many of the CCM websites have a tendency to embellish, because they are ultimately commercial websites. Takemybooksaway (talk) 18:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand your concern, I put back what was there because both statements in the sentence are referenced by mainstream publications and have multiple references. I agree that much of the article material probably needs to be pared and strengthened and should not rely at all on iffy sources, but you do have to remember that a wide variety of folks are going to read and contribute to the article and provide a different point of view from those who may be more familiar with what Norman says as an artist and what he contributed before the growth of what people call the Christian music industry.Awotter (talk) 18:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

My point was to choose better sources, which I think we agree on. The "father of Christian rock" phrase has enough independent confirmation to remain in the article, I just made a mess trying to move it. My main concern is to what extent Norman can be retrofitted into certain genres; I'm a historian in real life and think that some of the industry point-of-view smacks of embellishing the past. Takemybooksaway (talk) 18:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

"I'm a historian in real life and think that some of the industry point-of-view smacks of embellishing the past." True enough. I added most of the notes to provide his point of view as best as possible and it is important to put things like influences in context. It's only been recently that many black artists have been given their due appreciation for what the segregated pop culture liberally borrowed from them. If I remember correctly that influence is something Norman has acknowledged from the beginning.
I'm such an old fart I don't know half the bands mentioned, secular or religious!19:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reference names

I forgot to post this earlier but if there is a reference you want to use already in the article again (unless it cites specific book pages) some are already named <ref name=Name></ref> and you can use them as many times as you like by placing this <ref name=Name/> where you want the reference to repeat. If you need to you can use that form for any reference and the software will group them if they are used more than once.Awotter (talk) 00:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] U2

OK so I asked how we know U2 are fans. My request for a citation was deleted and I received the response that it is found in the section that I partially read. I see an article from Knet180radio that says U2 has called themselves fans. Does anyone have an actual quote? A link to an interview? I've been a U2 fan for a long time and have never heard them say this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.152.232 (talk) 04:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I added a reference, page number and footnote for that section from Frank Black (Thompson) of the Pixies who met Norman for the first time when Norman visited U2 backstage at a concert the Pixies were opening for. A lot of the information from those bio pages come from Larry Norman as a primary source, but for most of it it seems you can find secondary sources like the Pixie book.Awotter (talk) 05:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
I should also clarify the use of the KNetradio article... it is actually Larry Norman's biography from the Gospel Music Hall of Fame. The radio website was the only one on the web where I could find the bio reprinted in its entirety, and that's why I used it. Takemybooksaway (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it says that Frank Black met Norman at a U2 COncert. It still doesn't say that U2 are fans. Thats what I'm trying to find here. How do we know? Do we have an actual quote or interview? This ""Thompson: I remember my first opportunity to meet Larry Norman came through U2 of all people. A lot of people in the U2 organization are Christians, basically" doesn't really say anything about them being fans. The reason I am pushing for a more direct quote or reference is that I have heard people insist both sides of this. Some insist that U2 are definitely not fans, others insist they definitely are. I have yet to see anything really clear and direct that says one way or the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.152.232 (talk) 19:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The reference didn't just say Black met Norman at a U2 concert, it said he met Norman through U2 and was told Norman would be there beforehand. It's entirely possible that Norman, having performed with U2 at the same venue at one time invited himself but it's not unreasonable to also assume the benefit of the doubt and say he was there because U2 invited him. I personally have more of a problem with the statement that People! in some way inspired Tommy, especially since that apparently comes from an album liner. When I looked for specific references there were at least two books about U2 that showed up on Google that referenced Norman, unfortunately, unlike the Pixies book there was no preview of the relevant text available, at least not yet and one of those is by a person very involved with the Irish Christian music scene and Norman for a long time. At this point I'd like to see a reference that says at least one of U2 weren't fans.Awotter (talk) 20:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I removed the phrase "Norman fans" from the sentence to solve the problem. However, if you're aware of a debate on whether U2 actually likes Larry Norman or not, please direct us to it. If not, we'll assume that The Gospel Music Hall of Fame is an adequate source, and that U2 does not invite artists whose music they despise backstage.
I actually have no idea how U2 met Norman; that would be interesting for us to find out. They did both headline the Greenbelt Festival, but not the same year. I seriously doubt that anyone gets to invite himself to the Zoo TV tour. Takemybooksaway (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


You're making a couple of assumptions. First, simply being able to go backstage at a show does not make U2 fans of that person. I'm sure there are thousands of people that pass through the backstage area of a U2 show aside from crew and venue workers. There are people in radio. People in print media. People with connections. Friends of so and so. Etc, etc. I know people that have been backstage at Paul McCartney shows. They definitely weren't good friends with Mr McCartney. Playing Greenbelt doesn't mean anything either. Hundreds of bands and artists have played Greenbelt. Amy Grant has played Greenbelt if I'm not mistaken. Should we assume that U2 are Amy Grant fans? We seem to be making a jump from him being backstage at a show to the band being fans.
Its not a raging debate where you can find a hundred websites and blogs debating the issue. But, as far as I know, the only person claiming that U2 are Norman fans is Norman himself. The people that I have heard question that are industry related people, including some with connections to U2. That seems like a reasonable amount of doubt. Thats why I would like to see something in U2's words to settle it once and for all. A bio like the one on the gospel music hall of fame page does not necessarily give it credibility. All it means is that the author has heard Norman call U2 fans of his. It doesn't mean that the author has researched it and found it to be true. You may have removed one mention of them being fans, but it still claims that "U2 became fans of Larry Norman's music." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.179.152.232 (talk) 07:30, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
We're in agreement that the relationship between Norman and U2 needs further research. However, we have to go with the weight of evidence so far. So far, we have one source naming U2 members as Norman fans, and zero disputing that claim. The Gospel Music Hall of Fame seems to be an independent source; based on what we know so far, Norman was hospitalized (presumably on his deathbed at the time) and couldn't make it to the awards ceremony. If Norman was dealing with failing health prior to the ceremony, then they likely didn't send him a questionnaire for the bio...I have to conclude that the writer probably did actual research instead.
On the other hand, just because the evidence points to validating that statement, that doesn't mean that the Hall of Fame source couldn't be absolutely wrong. If we had a source disputing what it says, or one pointing to a debate over the relationship between Norman and U2, we would definitely need to make a note of it. Based on the current information, though, the current text stands. Takemybooksaway (talk) 04:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
You can't prove a negative. It needs to be proven that U2 are fans. Its impossible to prove that they're not. Solkaige (talk) 03:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
And yet it's amazing how you can disprove a positive, if you try. We have a source stating that U2 are fans of Norman. All you have to do is take the time to disprove the source.
Now, moving away from the minor issue of fandom to the larger issue of researching the relationship between Norman and U2, I have written U2 biographer Steve Stockman to see if he can offer some insight. If anyone would know, he would...if he responds. Takemybooksaway (talk) 15:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Good news! I got a reply from Steve Stockman already, and based on his opinion (he has literally written the book on U2) Norman is not enough of an influence on U2's music to warrant the second paragraph, so I'm removing it. He does say that Larry talks about it in his liner notes, but that Norman has a tendency to "flower it up." Steve referred to a rumor that Bono and Norman had some kind of meeting when he last visited Oregon, but doesn't personally have any documented evidence of it.
Based on his recommendations, I'm going to broaden the first paragraph about U2, place "fans" in quotation marks (only because it's quoted in the Gospel Music Hall of Fame article) and completely remove the second U2 paragraph. Takemybooksaway (talk) 03:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus freak

Didn't he do a cover of the Dc talk song Jesus freak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.71.79 (talk) 05:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

yes, either in Holland, or with a band called Holland, don't remember which. I had the song at one point--Kyle van der Meer (talk) 13:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
It was a HM Magazine Cover CD put out years back. The Mother of all Tribute Albums was the name and can be read about here - [1] I have it, good album.OfficialDoughboy (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Lnorman9.gif

Image:Lnorman9.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cause of death?

It's hinted to be a "weak heart". But maybe amidst all the worship, something could be added about what it was, specifically, that killed him. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Not very familiar with the guy, but I'll have to look up a 2002 Charisma magazine article about him. I know from that article that Norman had been in poor health for some time, but I forgot any specifics. WAVY 10 Fan (talk) 18:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Cause of death wasn't mentioned which is why there was no speculation. Far from being a "worship" article I think there's been a lot of effort recently to clean-up what was here previously. It's hard to balance out the facts of a person's life vs. what's available in reliable sources.Awotter (talk) 17:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
After a heart attack in Holland in 1992, part of Norman's heart died - some reports say 60% loss of function, others 75%. From that time, he was dogged by health problems. I met him in 2007, and he looked (off-stage) an old, sick man (though not the least bit unhappy). During the last 16 years, I understand he was never really well, but at times he was been better than others - and during those periods of relative health was able to record. He did have a pace-maker fitted, which stabilised his health for a while, but with the damaged heart (rather than weak heart), his days were numbered. Cause of death? Heart failure. But I guess we'll never know, without the doctors' report. Matthewdjb (talk) 19:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Obituaries based on this article?

I was reading some of the obituaries in Google News, and it is uncanny how many of the same details are in them as this article. Is it possible that some of the newspaper writers referenced this Wikipedia article? In a weird (and somewhat morbid) way, we might have actually written Larry Norman's obituary in the last month and a half... Takemybooksaway (talk) 02:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:People ILOVEYOU 1968.jpg

Image:People ILOVEYOU 1968.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cause of Death

The last Interview Larry ever gave is available for use on this web site but was removed and I was told to come to this page to discuss the possibility of putting it back into the links section. The segment is 2 hours long and Larry discusses many of the things mentioned in this article. The interview is a good first hand source. Any suggestions? - I am new to this and have not been doing the editing properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Michellewho (talk • contribs) 16:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

What is the link? ... richi (hello) 19:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.drewmarshall.ca/65.93.110.182 (talk) 00:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA nom

  • nommed the article for GA. Will probably be weeks 'til it gets reviewd. later! Ling.Nut (talk) 03:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History - Could someone of authority please add this info to the article?

OK, I am old enough to have been around for Larry Norman's early career, I am a definite fan of that era. He was definitely in an adversarial relationship with churches in the early (1969-1976) stage of his career. Churches would constantly refuse to allow him to use their facilities, and so he almost always played local high school or college auditoriums, which were packed by word-of-mouth because the churches would also forbid members from advertising his concerts. Some of the 'bad blood' between Norman and the church was because of his shoulder length, blond - almost white hair, and blue jeans and boots attire, but then much of the controversy was created by Norman himself. He constantly criticized the churches and other Christian artists, sometimes with his very dry, straight-faced humor, and sometimes with a bit of acid. In spite of the controversy, in 1972 Norman was included in Billy Graham's 'Explo 72' youth convention in Dallas Texas, alongside 'Love Song', Johnny Cash, Andre Crouch and the Disciples, and others. This exposure was very important to the success of his "Upon This Rock" and "Only Just Visiting This Planet" albums. He contributed some of the most important songs of the early 'Jesus Movement' such as 'I Wish We'd All Been Ready', 'Sweet Song Of Salvation' and 'Why Should The Devil Have All The Good Music?'. Larry Norman was a victim of a plane crash in the 1990's and the physical problems that he has had since are largely as a result of the injuries he received. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.106.130 (talk) 16:50, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Can't add it if we don't have a reliable source (newspaper, magazine, etc.) to quote from and cite. Sorry. Ling.Nut (talk) 17:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Here are some citations that relate to much of what I have written.

'Remembering Christian Rock Maverick Larry Norman'. Chris Willman. Entertainment Weekly.com. 2/26/08. http://popwatch.ew.com/popwatch/2008/02/remembering-chr.html
'Explo72' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explo_'72
"The Great Jesus Rally In Dallas". Life Magazine. June 30,1972.
'Larry Norman, Singer of Christian Rock Music', Dies at 60, Dennis Hevwesi, New York Times, March 4, 2008,http://www.larrynorman.com/pdfs/New_York_Times.pdf
"Larry Norman, 'Father of Christian Rock,' Dies at 60". Sarah Pulliam, Christianity Today. 2/26/08. http://www.larrynorman.com/pdfs/Christianity_Today2.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.96.106.130 (talk) 22:34, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA fail

I am sorry to inform the editors of this article that I am failing it. Here are some things to fix before renomination:

  • A documentary on Norman's life is due out in 2008. - I don't think this is appropriate for the lead. Per WP:LEAD, the lead is only supposed to summarize the main points of the article, not present new information.

Y Done

  • The picture in the infobox is a current candidate for speedy deletion.

Y Done

  • Image:LN ONLYVISITING.JPG needs a specific fair-use rationale for this article.
  • All the citation needed tags need to be addressed.

Y Done

  • The paragraphs are short and choppy. Merge or expand any paragraph that is only one or two sentences long.
  • Per WP:TRIVIA, the trivia needs to be merged into the prose of the article or deleted.

Y Done

Good luck with improving the article! Nikki311 01:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Addressed some of the concerns aboveAwotter (talk) 20:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spam links

Links to commercial web sites will be removed from the article when they solicit donations, especially if they are for non-industry recognized awards and/or so called "museums".Awotter (talk) 19:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)