Talk:Laozi

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	Laozi has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a reassessment.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 4, 2007 Peer review Reviewed January 18, 2008 Good article nominee Listed Current Status: Good article

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To-do list for Laozi:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Cover Laozi's religious and cultural presence/image in Asian culture Develop a section on influences in Western culture and philosophy Present various scholarly theories regarding the historicity of Laozi

Archives

• Archive 1

Contents 1 Move discussion 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.2 Discussion 3 Meaning of Name 4 Neutrality? 5 Lao Tzu founder of taoism? 6 Mostly minor edits 7 Parrallels with Western Philosophy 8 Cultural depictions of Laozi 9 Controversies section 10 Pearl of Lao-Tzu or Pearl of Allah 11 Page should be moved 12 A matter of consistency 13 Traditional and Simplified 14 Image 15 recent changes 16 Vandal? 17 References & Laozi 18 External Links 19 GA Review 20 Genuine Practitioners? 21 Influence- Zen 22 Watts 23 Sourcing 24 Image Captions 25 Ziran 26 Are we ready for FAC 27 Historicity 28 Userboxes

[edit] Move discussion

[edit] Meaning of Name

The article mentions, "Laozi literally means "Old Master" and is generally considered an honorific." Wouldn't a more accurate translation of 老子 be "old boy?" I am more familiar with Korean and Japanese 漢文 so I could be wrong... Konamaiki 23:14, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the characters in today's kanji would probably be better translated as "old boy". But I think back in Laozi's time, zi was an honorific. "古代对人的尊称；称老师或称有道德、有学问的人" from a chinese dictionary. if you could read it. Hanfresco 01:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Alan Watts uses "Old Boy" and says it's a reference to the legend that he was born as a full grown man after 62 years gestation. pxxii —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 03:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Because both characters describe status, is this truly a name, or only a title? Is it conceivable that he could be known to some country further west by some other name? Wnt (talk) 07:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I've read several pretty well-researched accounts, and I think it's safe to say "people have often wondered, no one really knows." Msalt (talk) 15:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality?

It doesn't seem very Wikipedia-ish to put such a great deal of emphasis at the start of this small article on a (probably) historical personnage on the claim that he didn't exist, or was simply a pseudonym for a less interesting figure. I mean, the only section really relating directly to him or his life is the section with that title, and about half of it is a series of possible explanations for the belief that he existed. About as much is not known about the life of, say, Jesus, but before any argument that he did not exist or was somewhat different to what people believe is made in that article, there is a body of text longer than this whole article on his "life and teachings based on the Gospels". Can we not get some perspective here? elvenscout742 22:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

He probably didn't exist, in fact; the probability of his existence is roughly at the level of Homer. In the case of Jesus, there's next to no independent evidence of his existence, but little serious doubt that he existed; in the case of Laozi, there's a great deal of serious doubt. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am pleased to see at least an alert visitor like elvenscout742 is raising queries on bias towards Laozi's non-existence. Once again to the editor Mel, I wish to include other descriptions and legends, duly described as such, to the Intro on Laozi, purely as narrative of what Taoists know for a fact [this will be another subject to be debated] that the scholars who thought they know about Taosim but actually don't. It will probably run like this :

"According to legends(some in the Taoist Canons), although rejected by some scholars, Laozi had had 13 incarnates in the times of 3-sovereigns and 5-kings ......up to the Zhou Dynasty...." Will this be koshere?

And perhaps a small paragraph in the Taoism Section between "....managing and governing." and "As with most other....." to read:

"Central to Daodejing prescriptions to Man is the insignificance of the SELF in Man and this SELF is part of an overall pattern of the Universe. Rather than to assert ourselves over Nature, Man ought to recognize the modus operandi and participate in Nature, in a process the ancient Greek scholars called methexis." I will make sure the other canons of WIkipedia is not sidestepped, RSVP. Alex26June06

[edit] Lao Tzu founder of taoism?

I think it's a little misleading to credit Lao Tzu with founding Taoism so I've taken that out. He is, as John Blofeld has written, "a compararive late-comer on the scene." The concept of yin and yang arising from the one (Tao) can be traced in the I ching, and it can be argued that there is much evidence of Taoist thought/behaviour, though no surviving texts, that predate the Tao Te Ching.

[edit] Mostly minor edits

I proofed the article and made some (mostly) minor edits. I hope they were beneficial and did not detract from the article's emphasis. There was one (noted) place where I could not understand the intent of the sentence, so I avoided editing it to further obscure meaning. What's the frequency, Kenneth? 04:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I followed the link from the article on libertarianism, and as a libertarian, I found the article quite enlightening. What's the frequency, Kenneth? 04:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parrallels with Western Philosophy

I believe the parrallel with the traditionalist school is rather weak, whilst the parrallels with ancient Greek Stoicism are much stronger. (This unsigned edit was by 70.125.64.154 on 9 Sept 2006. What's the frequency, Kenneth? 08:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

To a large extent, the parallels are shared, and to the average reader, the parallels to western philosophy are more relevant. What's the frequency, Kenneth? 08:19, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't Greek culture regarded as "Western"? However, I do agree with the parrallels of Greek Stoicism, its a valid point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.162.165 (talk) 04:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Laozi

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent idea. I will work on that. We will then need one for Confucius too, as these two philosophers influenced the Chinese culture for the 2000 years after them. AQu01rius (User | Talk | Websites)  17:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversies section

I decided to be bold and remove the section on controversies. It smacked of book report, and was unsourced and had been so for a while. I would suggest that if anyone feels like this section belongs here, they reconstruct it using sources rather than just reverting this edit and hoping someone else will come along and do the hard part later. --Dmz5 07:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pearl of Lao-Tzu or Pearl of Allah

Should there be mention of the Pearl of Lao Tzu, as it was named after him and there is apparently a sculpture of his two friends and himself in it? The pearl also seems to be the largest in the world, something worth noting or to confirm his birth date. Thanks man Aeryck89 07:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page should be moved

Per the discussion above, this article should be moved to Lao Tzu as this is BY FAR the most common ENGLISH transliteration. I teach selected religious studies classes from time to time, and I can tell you all from MANY years of personal reading/research that in most (contemporary) ENGLISH scholarly works (not to mention non-scholarly works) Lao Tzu is BY FAR the preferred usage (especially if the book is newish). I'm not going to move it myself though because I don't want to open that can-of-worms...I'll let someone else more familiar with the renaming debate (that occurred long before I ever got here) go ahead and take that plunge. --WassermannNYC 12:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The above debate actually reached no consensus. I do, however, think that the article should use a consistent name throughout, since it even uses Lao Tsu at some points. abexy 06:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A matter of consistency

I concur with many of the above post that Lao Tzu is the most common English spelling. However, what bothers me more is that the articles Sun Tzu; Mencius, Confucius; Laozi, Zhuangzi; Xun Zi; and Han Fei all use differing (name) spelling conventions. This is a problem with Wikipedia in general on no-consensus matters, because the status quo remains, even if it is worse. 129.199.159.36 (talk) 19:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Traditional and Simplified

I am wondering, most Wikipedia articles with Chinese names have the name in Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese, but for Laozi there is only one. Is the name the same in both, or is there one missing? abexy 07:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

There is only one character for each of those words. Simplified Chinese characters are a set of characters that were simplified from their original forms in order to facilitate the learning and writing of those characters. Out of all extant characters, only about 2000 have a simplified form. So characters such as 人，木，老，子，etc. have only their original form because characters comprised of few strokes have no need for simplification. Sun da sheng 07:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. abexy 04:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I am a bit bothered by the image: [Image:Lao Tzu - Project Gutenberg eText 15250.jpg] of Laozi. He seems to be depicted in a Buddhist cloak which seems techncically and historically incorrect. --Charlie Huang 【遯卋山人】 22:23, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] recent changes

I rewrote the lede slightly to tighten it up. I did a complete rewrite of the Biography section, using referenced sources. I have reformatted the references and separated books not cited to a further reading section. I will be removing the names of Laozi infobox. If anyone objects to my edits, please let me know and explain why. I will be more than happy to accommodate any concerns. I plan on rewriting the Taoism section similarly. I also intend on sourcing and expanding the Influences section. Vassyana 14:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

About time someone took this on! What names you intend to remove from the infobox? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that the infobox is a useful device, and it is used widely in such articles. Let's restore it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Hm, what if we just put the Taoism infobox at the top, as is normal practice? Revert it if it's a bad change. I'll move the top image lower in the text. Vassyana 15:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The infobox is useful, so I would prefer to have it there. I have also restored the "Names" section. I know it is unsourced, but the material there seems useful. Let's work in finding some good sources for that section, rather than deleting it altogether. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Looks good without the infobox. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Some more on influences, that could be incorporated:

• Bellamy, James A. B, Some Proposed Emendations to the Text of the Koran," The Journal of the American Oriental Society 113.4 (1993), citing work by Aat Vervoorn ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Textual authority derived from non-Confucian attitudes, in particular as expressed in the works attributed to Laozi and Zhuangzi, also provided some potential officials with justification for not serving any ruler at any time. "Zhuangzi ... aside from Confucius is the single most important figure in the history of Chinese eremitism." For Zhuangzi, "eremitism, properly understood, was the highest ideal to which a man can aspire" (pp. 55-56). Yet Vervoorn's treatment of the writings of Zhuangzi is somewhat perplexing. He expounds the ostensibly true purport of the (original) "Inner Chapters," which in his view do not advocate physical withdrawal: "hiding ... takes place within society rather than outside it .... The best way to hide ... is to be completely anonymous.... To be a hermit in Zhuangzi's sense is to be completely unknown.... Unfettered wandering ... is to be understood above all as an affair of the mind" (pp. 58-63). This may be true, and certainly contributed to the rationale behind "hiding at court", but Vervoorn cuts his discussion short, saying, "The outer and miscellaneous chapters of Zhuangzi ... contain a considerable amount of material relating to eremitism which cannot be examined in detail here" (p. 64). But it is precisely these chapters that contribute substantively to the portrayal of reclusion in later centuries, and Vervoorn's scant reference to them in his following discussions does not give them their due. He credits to the Laozi the influence during the Han and later times of the doctrines of selflessness and desirelessness, simplicity and quietude ("developed in the Laozi in relation to the ruler only"), but it is hard to accept his claim that "it was the Laozi rather than the Zhuangzi that became the most important source of such doctrines for any would-be hermits of later periods" (p. 67). Writings dealing with the topic of reclusion in later periods, and especially accounts of men in reclusion, do not seem to bear this out.

Incorporated. Nicely, it gave a context to merge the uncontroversial accepted knowledge from the uncited statement at the beginning of the section. I doubt anyone will dispute he has a huge impact on Chinese culture and history, or that he's Laozi's most famous follower. I changed the name of the section from Influences to Influence. Influences would be who influenced him, influence is the impact he has had. Things are coming along well. Vassyana 05:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The changes you've made look excellent. Thank you for the work, the article needed attention. abexy 06:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten names completely to sources. I have moved unsourced claims to invisible comments. I will look for sources for these claims and either verify them with citation or remove them from the comments. I will be searching for references for the Taoism section over the next while to do a source based rewrite of that section next. What needs to be expanded? What else needs to be covered in this article? Any suggestions? Cheers! Vassyana 04:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I've also changed the referencing style slightly. I use break returns to keep a neat list while consolidating references into a single citation where multiple citations are used. This makes the article appear less cluttered with footnotes, while preserving the multiple citations. Vassyana 04:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandal?

Is this a vandal edit? The IP has vandalized other pages today. delldot talk 18:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

At first glance it is hard to say. That edit is definately incorrect and should be changed, but good faith is hard to determine. Of course, if the IP has done additional vandalism, I'd say yes. abexy 20:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References & Laozi

I made some changes to the first few footnotes- note I took out FN#1 by Livia Kohn page-4 alleging Laozi was not a person. Discussion welcome, I re-read Kohn's chapter one several times in which he put up a valiant check of Laozi from Simia Qian against Lao Dan by other scholars including one by Angus Graham(who concentrated more on the dating of the Confucius meeting), later disputed to be someone else. This line of logic conceded Lao Dan might indeed be someone else at best but certainly insufficient to disprove Laozi existed in the biography of Sima Qian. ACHKC 09:42, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

Can some editor please trim the external links since Goodshoped35110s (talk · contribs) thinks I'm spamming by censoring and accuse me of being anti-taoist. On the contrary I am trying to clean the links of spam which have little to no information, information more information here, provide "classes" for a fee to be initiated, a directory listing. All these are listed as links to be avoided in external links help and for the record cleaning up links is essential to a worthwhile encyclopedia.StopTaoSpam (talk) 04:56, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, not trying to attack you or anything, but I am not censoring you. I do not want to transition this to an edit war, because I do not want to do that, and the fact that articles have to be neutral, and not only that, if you are removing them, please give an edit summary about why the links should be removed. I will now verify the links to see if they are spam. -Goodshoped 05:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

All the links seem OK, neutral, educational, and verifiable. -Goodshoped 05:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

http://www.taoism.net/ seems to talk about Taoism and not Laozi. I know these topics are interrelated (since Laozi(person) was the founder of Taoism(philosophy)). Also this site seems to be selling books. This link should be placed under Taoism article

http://www.taopage.org/laotzu/. This site seems to be selling online courses. Also all the information on this site should already be present in our article

http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/laotse.htm This is a blog with lots of advertisements. This is a collection of links. So we are pointing to a blog which is maintaining a collection of link. Lets put this in dmoz

http://classics.mit.edu/Lao/taote.html This should be under Tao-Te Ching article. This is the book and not the person himself.

-- Anshuk (talk) 20:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't get any response on this. I am going ahead and deleting the links. Please discuss before re-inserting. Thanks. -- Anshuk (talk) 07:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Overall, the article looks pretty good. I do have a few suggestions though:

• I believe that articles with the Chinese Language template typically have it in the begginning, not the end.
• I see one crucial flaw with the biography section: although it's apparently impossible to tell what's truth vs fiction, much of this information begs for a source. To be more precise, where legend is quoted, mention exactly what legend. If a historian is quoted, say so. Is this information form Sima Qian? From modern-day historians? The only way to clarify exactly what is being said, and to allow the reader to take it in the appropriate way, is to specify were this information comes from. For example, the sentence that says he was 160 is treated in exactly the same nature as everything else: obviously this is fiction, but it's treated at face-value along with everything else. Things like "Laozi is said to" is just too vague. Hopefully I'm making sense here.
• T'ang Dynasty should be wikilinked the first time it is mentioned (in the Biography section), and therefore should be wikilinked all other times (in all other sections).
• "Laozi grew weary of the moral decay of the city" what city would that be? Or do you mean of citylife? Be more specific.
• In general the writing is decent, but it would benefit greatly from a thorough copyedit. Nothing series, just minor language things here and there. Mainly, many thoughts are awkwardly broken up between too many sentences, were a few commas and longer sentences would suffice. For example "The Tao Te Ching, often called simply the Laozi after its reputed author, emphasizes the Dao. In the text, it is the source, and ideal, of all existence. It is unseen, but not transcendent, being the root of all things." could be changed to "The Tao Te Ching, often called simply the Laozi, emphasizes the Dao, the source, and ideal, of all existence: unseen, but not transcendent, being the root of all things." And "The concept of wu wei is very complex. It includes the concepts that value distinctions are ideological and ambition of all sorts originates from the same source." could be changed to "The concept of wu wei is very complex, including the concepts that value distinctions are ideological and ambition of all sorts originates from the same source."
• "Laozi's work, the Tao Te Ching, is one of the most significant treatises in Chinese philosophy. It is his magnum opus," There's alot wrong with that sentence, namely that it's not nuetral POV.
• Tao Te Ching, as well as any alternate titles, like The Laozi, should be italicized whenever mentioned.
• "such as the "sitting in oblivion" found in the Zhuangzi." makes no sense to someone unfamiliar with Taoism.
• I'm not sure what the relevance of the Taoist dragon picture is...
• "citing work by Aat Vervoorn" what does that mean?
• Per WP:Lead, the lead should summarize the entire article. So, some mention of Laozi's influence should be in the lead.

Other than those somewhat minor points, I think the article is pretty good. I've put the article's GA nomination on hold, which gives you 7 days to take care of the above, at which point the article will either be passed or failed. Feel free to drop me a note if you have any questions or concerns. Drewcifer (talk) 13:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I will address the criticisms over the next few days. Thanks again! Vassyana (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Revisions made. Vassyana (talk) 20:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Everything looks pretty good, so I'm happy to pass its GA nomination. Good work! Some additional suggestions I have would be to mainly clean up some of the language. Much of the prose is reads much better, but it is still a little awkward in some places. A thourough copyedit by a 3rd party might help alot. But for now it definitely fits the GA criteria, so well done! Drewcifer (talk) 22:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Genuine Practitioners?

I have problems with this sentence: "According to genuine Taoist practitioners, the book contains specific instructions for Taoist adepts relating to Xiuzhen, and in veiled preachings the way to revert to the primordial state.[23]" Who is deciding which practitioners are "genuine"? Is there some kind of certification, as with USDA organic produce? The very concept seems un-genuine (is that a word?) to my understanding of Taoism. Who are the non-genuine practitioners? Msalt (talk) 09:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the rewording, Vassyana. Much better. Msalt (talk) 19:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Influence- Zen

I added a line about the role of Taoism in the development of Zen Buddhism. Is there some reason this is not there? It seems to be a very well accepted and sourced connection. Msalt (talk) 09:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Vassyana, I love most of your edits, but wonder why you felt it necessary to remove this line without discussion. Since the very existence of Lao Zi as an historical person is in doubt, is there really an important distinction between the well-sourced role of Taoism in spawning Zen, and the role of Lao Zi? You don't actually dispute that the Tao Teh Ching's influence extends to Zen Buddhism, do you? I'm all for a more careful rewording but complete removal seems unnecessary. Msalt (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't really have anything to do with Laozi or his recognized works or successors. I fail to see its relevance to this article. However, if we could find a source that details the Tao Te Ching's influence on Buddhism (or some kind of veneration of Laozi by Buddhists) that would be perfectly appropriate. Vassyana (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Would this source be useful? Iam not familiar with the subject to make a grounded assessment The Taoist Influence on Hua-yen Buddhism: A Case of the Sinicization of Buddhism in China. Retrieved on 2008-03-02. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Jossi. Of course my insertion was sourced as well, to Dumoulin, Heinrich (2005). Zen Buddhism: A History. Bloomington, IN: World Wisdom. ISBN 0-941532-89-5. In fact, I got that source from the Wikipedia Zen page, which discusses the link between Taoism and Zen in both the lede and Early History sections. Msalt (talk) 22:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

By no means do I dispute the heavy influence of Taoism on Chinese Buddhism. I simply do not understand how absent a direct link to Laozi such information would be relevant to this article. If everyone else thinks it is appropriate, I'm not going to hold up consensus. Vassyana (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It's an interesting question. Given that Lao Zi is considered by many to be a mythical figure who represents the collective authorship of the Tao Teh Ching, how do we separate what should be in the articles Laozi, Tao Teh Ching and Taoism? I have no clear answer. It's possible that an Influence section may not belong in this article at all. What is the influence of Laozi independent of the Tao Teh Ching? Just as a mythical figure? I guess if I really examine my unconscious thoughts, I take him and the Tao Teh Ching as exemplars of what some would call "pure" and what Watts calls "contemplative" Taoism, as opposed to the "religious" or "magical" Taoism. But that's just me. His influence as an icon is probably mostly with the more "corrupt" branch of Taoism, with immortality potions and such. Msalt (talk) 23:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Watts

Good addition. I am sure there are other contemporary authors that have explored Laozi. It would be interesting to develop a section on the subject. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

Unless there's reason to believe otherwise, citations coming at the end of a paragraph usually support the entire paragraph. This is a common and standard practice. If there is reason to doubt the faithfulness to the source (or the sourcing of the paragraph in general) using the {{verify source}} template would be appropriate. Points needing clarification can be tagged with {{clarifyme}}. Vassyana (talk) 20:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

What about a situation, such as in the paragraph about we-wei that I think we are both talking about, where a paragraph contains different points that might have different citations? That paragraph contains (to my eye) 7 completely different and significant assertions about Wu-wei. My mid-paragraph citation about the different meanings of the word is specific to those meanings (and I will probably have other citations to add later.) The political implications of wu-wei are a distinct point. Should the references at the end of a paragraph include text making these distinctions?

I also see intra-paragraph citations fairly often. A paragraph as complicated as this one seems like it could benefit from intra-paragraph citations (or maybe better yet, should be broken into multiple paragraphs with specific points.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 21:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be best to try and separate such claims from each to preserve sourcing. Alternatively, if a mid-paragraph insertion is necessary, simply ensure that the previous citation is applied before the insertion with an editor note (like <!-- This is an editor note. -->) explaining what text portion is covered by the citation. Cheers! Vassyana (talk) 21:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image Captions

There are two image captions worth discussing here. Vassyana, your recent edit removed the description "founder of Taoism" and I agree that this is a potentially controversial statement best avoided. However, your replacement -- "depicted as the Taoist God" -- is itself potentially controversial. Is there a source for the statement that the picture depicts Lao Zi as a god? Do we know for sure that that is true? It's a very loaded iconographic assertion. I would prefer something like "Portrait of Laozi circa 544 AD", or whatever year or dynasty it was created during.

The other picture, in the lede, is captioned "Laozi leaves China on his water buffalo." Are we sure that the animal there is a water buffalo? I have always heard that legend as saying that he was riding a yak. The point is significant because yaks are famously difficult animals, like mules are in the United States, so the fact that he was riding one is a statement about his mastery of the natural world. Msalt (talk) 20:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"Founder of Taoism" is incorrect IMO. Laozi did not found a religion. He was what he was, and Taoism developed much later. I am not sure about the "water buffalo" reference. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I just checked and there are numerous sources that describe a legend about Laozi and his water buffalo. One source: Renard, John (2002). 101 Questions and answers on Confucianism, Daoism, and Shinto. New York, NY: Paulist Press, p.16. ISBN 0-8091-4091-8.  ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The source of the image describes it as iconography depicting Laozi the god. Regarding the other, there are numerous variations of the image abounding, almost all attributing the animal as a water buffalo. I have never heard of a variation stating he rode on a yak, while leaving on a water buffalo is a quite common account. Vassyana (talk) 21:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree, Jossi. My question for both images is very narrow; are we sure the images are depicting what the captions say they do? Vassyana answered my question about the "God" one. I could provide citations for the animal he rode being a yak, but it doesn't really matter; the issue is what animal this particular image is depicting. Sorry if this seems picky. Msalt (talk) 22:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the original sourcing information for the water buffalo image was deleted from bg-wiki. I can see if another image is available, or if I can find the same image with more information is available elsewhere. However, I should note that yaks are long-haired and have horns curving backwards, while the image displays an animal with outward-bowed inward-curving horns and short hair (which is consistent with Asian Water Buffalo). Thoughts? Vassyana (talk) 22:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Good enough for me! Msalt (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ziran

I have created a disambig page for ziran. I will be nice to have an article on this Daoist concept. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Some help with the stub Ziran would be appreciated. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:57, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

D'oh! Just realized that's an alternate spelling of Tzu-jan, which I just promised elsewhere (in the Taoism template, I think) to start a stub on. As soon as I get some time, I'll be glad to help. I was obviously just struck by the absence of this one myself. Msalt (talk) 06:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are we ready for FAC

Are we ready to submit this to WP:FAC? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I would think we need to cover Laozi's religious and cultural presence/image in Asian culture in better depth. He is also a very popular figure in the West and we should probably include more information about that as well. A bit more about the various scholarly theories regarding his existence would also be required, in my view. In general, we have a good article here, but for FA standards I believe we need to cover the subject with more depth in a few key areas. Thoughts? Vassyana (talk) 22:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Added a {{todo}} with these tasks at top of page. I will get started with the historicity aspects. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Historicity

Does any one knows who besides Herbert A. Giles questioned the historicity of Laozi? Or is it just Giles notable scholarship who gave weight to this assertion? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

First, excellent revisions in this section! Second, isn't the third paragraph ("According to Fowler and Robinet") now redundant as a pale echo of the first? Third, I will actually answer your question.  :)

- David Hinton, translator, Chuang Tzu: The Inner Chapters, introduction pX.(Counterpoint: NY) 1998 "Unlike Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu probably did exist, though historical evidence for his existence is sparse."

- Burton Watson, "Complete Works of Chuang Tzu", in Unesco Series of Representative Works: Chinese Series, Columbia Univ. Press: 1968, Introduction, p8 -- "Most scholars now agree that it is impossible to say Lao Tzu ever lived, or, if he did, to determine exactly when."

- Alan Watts, cited above, pxxii-xxiii "Until relatively recent times, it was generally believed that Lao Tzu was an individual (otherwise known as Lao Tan or Li Erh) who lived at the time of Confucius (K'ung Fu-Tzu), that is to say in the -6th and -5th centuries... In the last fifty years, Chinese, Japanese and European scholars have, by minute textual criticism, come more or less to the consensus that the Lao-Tzu book, the Tao Teh Ching, is a compilation of Taoist sayings by many hands originating in the -4th century, during and even after the time of Chuang-Tzu, who, according to Fung Yu-lan, must have flourished somewhere between -369 and -286."

However, he goes on to push back against this consensus. "I am in some doubt as to how seriously this debunking of the Lao Tzu legend should be taken." He goes on to say that it is fashionable to cast doubt on the historicity of "'legendary'" figures, "especially if they are of the religious or spiritual type", and says we probably won't be able to judge clearly for years, if ever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 02:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Excellent.... now summarize that is a couple of sentences... and that would be a great addition. :) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, gave it a shot. I also reworded that first sentence, which I found confusing. Please fix either.... Msalt (talk) 06:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

AKHKC, what is your source for the second book recorded by the sentry who legendarily recorded the Dao de Jing? I have never heard of that, and without a verifiable source, we need to remove it. Also, for the "only recorded origin" of the Dao de Jing. That seems to be demonstrably false, since we many modern scholars who have recorded an origin for the book. Do you want to suggest an alternate phrasing, eg that it is the only source from a certain era for that? Again, we would need a source.

Unless we can back these points up, I believe we need to remove them. Msalt (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted the good faith edits, as they are not supported by the sources cited. I will see what I can find in sources about Xishen Jing and Yinxi. Vassyana (talk) 22:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Not having heard of this other work before, I have a concern about undue weight. On the other hand, if there are other works reliably attributed to Laozi, they should probably be mentioned in a different place in the article, perhaps more prominently. If they are of dubious authorship, then of course that should be noted as well. Msalt (talk) 22:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm developing a section about Yinxi at the moment. For now, I am focusing on the relationship between Lao Tzu and Yin Hsi, as the sources I've looked over do go over this in some detail. I will continue to look for reputable sources detailing the Xishenjing and it's relationship to Laozi. Vassyana (talk) 23:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Good stuff, Vassayana! I will look to see if I can add some material on this subject as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Userboxes

I have designed several Userboxes with both versions of the name, to show NPOV. If you want to use these just copy from the Edit page below and edit to your userpage. I trust the image is acceptable, if you want to change it let me know.

Logo links to this Article

Logo links to this Article

Jagra (talk) 06:25, 25 April 2008 (UTC)