Template talk:Lang-fr

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[edit] Italics

I readd the italics to keep the template similar to {{lang-it}} and others. It looked odd to have French w/o italics when all others included them. -- User:Docu

Actually, about half do and half don't. (It seems that the lang- templates corresponding to languages with alphabets similar to English have the italics.) One of the reasons why I did not want italics was because sometimes I use it in {{cite journal}} transclusions in the title= parameter which should not be italicized.
Also, if you want italics, you can simply add '' '' inside the template.
« D. Trebbien (talk) 00:09 2008 January 13 (UTC)
Before breaking it everywhere, can you show as the usage where you need it? There may be a better way of doing it.
If you want to change this template, you'd need to go through all uses and fix them.
Until you confirm that you will do that, I will restore the previous version. -- User:Docu
  • Hi Docu, Proceedings of the USSR Academy of Sciences and Szász-Mirakyan operator are two pages that I have been recently editing which identify what I am thinking. The Mirakjan reference on Szász-Mirakyan operator has a translated-to-English title as well as the original French title of the paper. The French title, I think, should not be capitalized.
  • On Proceedings of the USSR Academy of Sciences, the official French title of the former journal is now messed up. It is rendering as 'Comptes rendus de l'Académie des sciences de l'URSS' when it should be Comptes rendus de l'Académie des sciences de l'URSS.
  • When using the lang- templates, the consensus seems to be to put the template inside parentheses, where whether the text is italicized will make no difference.
  • Notice on the newer {{lang}} that one of the examples has '' '' explicitly if that is what the editors wish.
  • Lang- templates with italics include: aa, ae, ak, an, ang, arp, as, ay, az, bar, bh, bi, bm, bo, br, bs, ca, ce, ch, co, cr, crh, cs, csb, cy, da, de, ... . Lang- templates without include: ab, ady, af, akk, am, ar, av, ba, be, bg, bn, chm, chr, cu, cv, ... . So there are a large number of both.
  • WP:MoS is ambiguous with respect to italicizing foreign words and phrases:
"Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have common usage in English".
"Where native spellings in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek and Cyrillic) are given, they appear in parentheses (except where the sense requires otherwise), and are not italicized, even where this is technically feasible".
Although before one starts italicizing all foreign phrases, one should consider how that policy affects articles such as Mozartkugel, which is about a German candy. Notice that it would become awkward and confusing to italicize every occurrence of "Mozartkugel".
  • One should also look at pages that use {{fr icon}} (eg Athens) in making a decision.
  • I think that when one considers as much of the above as possible, there should not be italics in {{lang-fr}}.
« D. Trebbien (talk) 18:35 2008 January 13 (UTC)

Proceedings of the USSR Academy of Sciences looks like a good sample that italics when included in the template simplify things. If it would have been edited appropriately prior to or after changing this template (without fixing the other 1500 occurrences of {{lang-fr}} ) it would work fine. Add additional sets of '' or remove them entirely and it will work.

As for Szász-Mirakyan operator, it looks just like {{cite journal}} is missing a language field as {{cite web}} or {{cite book}} have.

Mozartkugel doesn't need {{lang-de}} as no English version preceeds it.

As all the frequently used templates for languages with latin scripts appear to use italics, there isn't much a point in removing them from one of them. -- User:Docu

Proceedings of the USSR Academy of Sciences is not a good example of why italics should be included in the template because it is just as easy to add '' '' inside the template. Moreover, in most cases according to MoS, the foreign words should not be italicized so removing the italics actually fixes the 1500 or so transclusions.
As for Szász-Mirakyan operator, my idea was to include the English translation of the paper's title as well as the French title. This way, searching for French-language papers that cite the French version is a lot easier, as is searching for English-language papers that cite the English version.
This cannot be solved with a language= field in {{cite journal}}.
I know that Mozartkugel does not need {{lang-de}}. I only brought up this article to demonstrate what I believe to be the intent of the parts of MoS that I quoted above.
Also, all of the frequently-used templates for languages with non-Latin alphabets do not appear to use italics, so there isn't a point in forcing italics on the output of {{lang-fr}}.
« D. Trebbien (talk) 03:56 2008 January 18 (UTC)
It has been the accepted MoS standard to use italics for foreign words in all languages that use a Latin alphabet (this adds emphasis that is unnecessary for non-Latin alphabets that stand out on their own). If this is changed, it should be changed at all Latin lang-XX templates and not just here. However, there should be more discussion before such a change is made. I currently do not see a need to remove italics from all these templates. Kusma (talk) 06:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
"this adds emphasis that is unnecessary for non-Latin alphabets [which] stand out on their own"
Sorry. I wasn't even thinking of this. Excellent point.
« D. Trebbien (talk) 04:17 2008 January 19 (UTC)