Talk:Languages of France

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Contents 1 redundancy in a list 2 sourcing? 3 "regional variations" of French 4 Oïl languages 5 Colored map 6 "Patois"

[edit] redundancy in a list

Just a minor quibble--it seems in the long list of foreign-based languages spoken within France that there is a redundancy--Croatian is listed in the "c"s and also mentioned in the "s"s under Serbo-Croatian.

I propose to eliminate the separate entry for Croatian as unneccessary (and inequitable--I see no listing for Serbian on its own). If no-one objects within a week or so I will do so. RSekulovich 16:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I object (I also added the Croatian link). Serbo-Croatian is a dead language. It has no standard, and therefore no textbooks, dictionaries, etc with which to learn it. The Croatian community has been active in France for many decades. Subsequent generations have learnt from Croatian texts, and the speakers declare their language as such. There's nothing inequitable about it - you can also add Serbian if you'd like. --Thewanderer (talk) 18:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

As a trained linguist, I can state categorically that from a linguistic point of view "croatian" and "serbian" are SO similar as to not even be dialects. The two names are the result of historical and political, not linguistic criteria. The "languages" are entirely mutually intelligible, and unintelligibility is the most basic criterion for differentiation, linguistically speaking. It would be more useful to speak of "iekavski, ekavski and ikavski" which at least represent something of linguistic value. For this reason, the label "Serbo-Croatian" continues to be useful in linguistic discussions, despite the dissolution of the two nations' rather unhappy political association...so it's hardly a "dead language" (btw that term is properly used for languages which have no modern-day speakers such as Sumerian, not for labels that lack a referrent). I am also fully aware that persons with strong nationalist sentiments on both sides of the hyphen have always objected to the term, but that has no bearing whatsoever on its linguistic applicability or usefulness...

This having been said, by all means go ahead and keep your Croatian label if it pleases you, I certainly have no strong feelings on the subject, and no, I have no plans of adding another unneccesary label such as "Serbian" (as something of a half-mutt myself, ie I have both nationalities represented in my family; (the other half being French, hence my interest in this page), I try to be dispassionate regarding these matters as much as possible). btw I also reside in Canada :-)

RSekulovich 23:36, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] sourcing?

What are the sources for these notes, or are they original research? For example, note 2 says 'Typically, the mother tongue of the youngest generations is much more frequently French than for the older generations.' Is the claim that those under 18 are less likely to be immigrants, that immigrants tend to be adults, and that their children grow up as native French speakers? How is the figure of 90% then calculated? kwami 02:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

those under 18 are less likely to be immigrants, that immigrants tend to be adults, and that their children grow up as native French speakers

I think it is what the article means. I wouldn't know where to find statistics about that — except that, obviously, since education and daily life are conducted in French, it is obvious that children of immigrants (unless perhaps going to special schools for foreigners) will grow up native speakers. David.Monniaux 06:47, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It isn't obvious to me that a child who doesn't speak French outside of school should be considered a native speaker. I don't know how many kids there might be like that in France. kwami 07:26, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Depends on what you call "native speaker". Your question is whether there are children who speak some foreign language at home exclusively, and speak French only in school or when buying stuff from stores? That probably happens. However, does this disqualify them from being native speakers? I've never heard any child of immigrants speaking French with a foreign accent (though many have a way of speaking particular to some banlieue youths, which is difficult to describe). David.Monniaux 07:36, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that the Oïl Languages were grouped together in the census—over half a million speakers spread over close to 10 languages doesn't necessarily help at all with estimating speakership for any given oïl language, other than that speakership averages close to 50,000.--The Jade Knight 06:41, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "regional variations" of French

I suppressed the following (from User:206.172.95.184):

The survey AND THESE NOTES do not take in account the very important fact that all the French people who have French as their mother tongue do not all speak the same "French" but speak one of many regional variations. Each region of France has a very typical regional accent, an accent that come from the regional language that was spoken in that region for centuries. In addition, in each region people use words that are not French but come from the regional language. This is very obvious when one travel around France or listen to the TV or radio. What is interesting is that children whose parents immigrated to France also speak French with a strong regional accent.

Different "typical regional accents" (and some specific local words) do not mean that it is not the same French which is spoken through the country. Apokrif 13:44, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

obviously Apokrif has never heard someone speaking Bordeluche and other regional versions of French that Parisians can't understand AT ALL!. These regional variations do not use the standard French gramatical rules and use not just a few words but several thousands of them that have little to do with French. so called Quebecois is another version of French that is very very different from the standard spoken French,if there is such a thing (calice! mon chum a pockete le bumper du char). Many Quebecois don't like their language to be called "Quebecois". For them it is French, period, and many of them believe that people from France don't speak proper French. As a group they refer to themselves as Francophones and English speaking Canadians also refer to them as Francophones (yes I am familiar with Quebec). By the way, why is "Quebecois" on a map of "the languages of France"? Quebec hasn't been French since 1759 or so. Who wrote the entry on "languages of France"? why no mention of the 1951 Loi Deixonne and no mention of the (1998)"rapport de Mr. B.Poignant a Mr L.Jospin,Premier ministre,sur les langues regionales de France"? just asking. J-L Brussac January 20/06

The paragraph I quoted was about "French people" and "regions of France", not Quebec. If You want to know who wrote the text, follow the "history" link. If you think the article is missing the mention of these laws, please edit it. Apokrif 02:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that you are confusing regional languages with regional accents? (The "Québécois" you mention also actually looks more like Chiac to me than Québécois) The Jade Knight 06:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I only mentionned Quebecois because it is on the left top handside of a map on this site that is supposed to be about the languages of France. I just doesn't make sense. J-L B..January 24, 06

[edit] Oïl languages

It has been proposed that Languages of Oïl be renamed and moved to Langues d'Oïl. Comments and votes on Talk:Languages of Oïl, please, if you're interested. Man vyi 09:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colored map

Can someone please explain what the colors in this big map represent?

The shades of green cover the extent of Oïl languages, shades of red/pink are Occitan, blue Arpitan, and purple for others, whether Celtic, Germanic, Romance or Basque. Man vyi 07:05, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Patois"

I'm translation the article patois for the Hebrew Wikipedia.

It says:

In France and other Francophone countries, patois has been used to describe non-Parisian French and regional languages such as Breton, Occitan, and Franco-Provençal, since 1643. The word assumes the view of such languages as being backward, countrified, and unlettered, thus is considered by speakers of those languages as offensive when used by outsiders, although speakers may use the term to refer familiarly to their own language (See also: Languages of France.)

I couldn't find sources for this statement neither here nor there. Any help? --Amir E. Aharoni 07:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)