Talk:Landgrave Charles of Hesse-Cassel

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Contents 1 Requested move 1.1 Survey 1.2 Discussion 1.3 Additional Move Discussion

[edit] Requested move

• Charles of Hesse → Prince Charles of Hesse — Prince Charles of Hesse was moved to/created as a form reserved for sovereigns on Wikipedia. I tried moving it, but a redirect was created. Charles 21:23, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

The survey has been closed; the result of the discussion was no consensus, so the move is denied. Mangojuice^talk 19:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support As nominator. Charles 21:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. As far as I read the grants made by his eldest brother, he received a substantive title then. At this stage, it is unclear what to do. I think the proposed name is wrong. ObRoy 21:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Until that clear substantive title is unearthed, he should be at the princely title which he would normally be accredited. Did he possibly adopt a landgravial title? Charles 00:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

As in request move reasoning. Charles 21:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I am very doubtful that in such era, mid-18th century, there yet was Prinz/ Prinzessin in use in a non-controversial way, particularly in non-royal families. We should not create retrospective titles to people. Kmorozov who started this article, seems to have good reasons not to include the prince honorific in the article name. ObRoy 00:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Such is an instance where a non-sovereign member of a "royal" family is colloquially referred to as prince. For certain he had the title of landgrave, like "princes" of Saxony were dukes in Saxony. Charles 01:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia's naming conventions the title of the article should not be Prince Charles of Hesse, it should be Charles, Prince of Hesse. Any objection to this name? Joelito (talk) 14:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Where in the naming conventions did you get that formulation? He was not the Prince of Hesse. Charles 16:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It is very unclear from the opening sentence in the article. Prince is a title but he was not prince. Sorry but I fail to understand. I am not accostumed to royalty but I am open to learning so that I may perform the right move. Joelito (talk) 16:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Appending a title the end of a name denotes either a sovereign or someone holding a title as head of a family, etc. Such titles are absolutely certain. Since there is question as to what his title was and it is certain that he was not a sovereign, then that form is incorrect. Charles 17:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

This one seems real puzzling. The naming conventions you point out are a little baffling - at least to us non-royal American types. With no sources referenced in this article, I can't verify anything and I'm tempted to close this as no consensus. When I scan through this person's siblings and relatives, they are either inconsistent or contradictory to the move proposal. It seems like we need an education of some kind. All I can determine is that he was the son of the daughter of a King of England - outside of that, I'm bewildered. —Wknight94 (talk) 16:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for leaving the note; I had the same feeling, so I'm closing it as no consensus. The debate is pretty dead, it seems. Mangojuice^talk 19:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that he would have been properly "Landgrave Charles of Hesse-Kassel" until at least 1803, and possibly later. At some point the members of the Hesse-Kassel family took the title "Prince of Hesse." I'm not sure when this would have been, but it's quite likely it's earlier than his death in 1836. john k 13:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional Move Discussion

This particular Charles of Hesse is actually known in general as Charles of Hesse-Kassel (This name redirects here) -- his father is known as Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, and he was not a prince in the strictest sense. I have seen him referred to as "Count", but the sources did not seem authoritative. I think this article should be re-named "Charles of Hesse-Kassel". There is another personage known as "Prince Charles of Hesse" who was born in 1809 and was the son of the Grand Duke Louis II of Hesse and the Rhine, and the prince question should be settled by now anyway. I do not have time at the moment to do the moving, but I will attempt to do so in the future if still warranted. Still 15:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)