Talk:LAN gaming center

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The term 'center' in this case is incorrect. It should be 'centre', center being the middle of a circle. Centre being a building or gathering place.

203.91.245.98 22:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)Dean

Contents

[edit] Re LAN Gaming Center

The terms Center or Centre means the same thing. Just depends on where you live. Canadians use Centre while Americans use Center. --Arobertson 21:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It should remain Center. 72.75.208.176 05:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

The external links should stay. iGames and the other LAN Center listing sites provide valuable information. If you are trying to prevent businesses from promoting themselves, then you should also remove the photographs of any existing LAN Gaming Businesses. Also remove the all of the links in the LAN Gaming Description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.252.106.129 (talk • contribs) 02:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree about the value of external links that don't supplement the encyclopedic content of an article. Wikipedia is not a link repository. It may be helpful to review the external links guidelines and, again, discuss individual links here before adding them back into the article. JonHarder 13:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

JonHarder We all disagree with you and your link removal, the links provide a huge resource of information about LAN centers.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.251.114 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Your argument isn't with me so much as with Wikipedia guidelines. First, Wikipedia is not a link repository. That means articles shouldn't be a collection of links like say, DMOZ. Wikipedia needs more content (article text), not links. The other factors are the guidelines concerning external links and linking to commercial sites. I don't have a problem with you adding the encyclopedic links back, but first verify that they fit the previous guidelines and then add those that pass the test back one by one. There are several in that list that have no other purpose but to promote a site or business. Do not continue to revert, as you are destroying work that has happened inbetween. Finally, there have been two other editors also reverting your attempts to replace the links and there will be others if you continue to put the spam back in. JonHarder 22:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
The external links should stay, the links blend with the article and provide a valuble resource to all of us. Do not continue to revert, as you are destroying work that has happened and I'm also sick of coming to find you have blanked this article. Freakdomination
And I'm tired of seeing unhelpful links added and put back into the article! I'm an old guy and not very bright, but to me, all of those links, including one used as a citation, just look like the kind of blatantly promotional sites discouraged by Wikipedia guidelines. They don't help me understand more about LAN Gaming Centers. Can you explain to me, and the several other editors who have been removing them, how they fit into the WP:EL guidelines? I prefer to see the links come out and that you and other editors concentrate on expanding the content of the article, including adding the source of your information. If by "destroying work" you mean removing the street address of a particular center, that is a level of detail that is not helpful in an encyclopedia. It should come out! JonHarder 23:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


"Blending with the article" is not one of the criteria of WP:EL; you might want to actually read it. And there are now three experienced editors calling for removal of these links. Anyone who wants to find gaming centers can do so via a Google search. -- Mwanner | Talk 23:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't call yourself experienced considering you have no idea what your doing when it comes to editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freakdomination (talk • contribs) 23:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
(Please sign your posts with ~~~~.) I may not be very bright, but I still prefer other editors to be civil, even when they disagree with my point of view. You are not building the kind of trust that is needed to work collaboratively. Do you want to try that response again? I know you can do better. And it's OK to admit that just maybe the concensus is building against you and it is time to contribute to Wikipedia in other ways than linking to external sites. JonHarder 03:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
The LAN center links are simply a directory listing, which Wikipedia is not. --Siobhan Hansa 02:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with that, but the other links, such as to iGames, are still a good resource. Kopf1988 19:20, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
You're right Kopf1988 - I should have been less trigger happy on the revert of those links. Sorry. --Siobhan Hansa 21:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree all the links should stay the all offer something unique and they aren't trying to sell anything. 4.234.15.242 19:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
All sorts of things are unique and useful to someone, but they don't add encyclopedic value. And a directory is definitely not what Wikipedia is supposed to be. If you want to ignore Wikipedia policy you need to show why the LAN center article is different from other subjects in Wikipedia that could do the same, and how allowing a directory of LAN centers would make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. --Siobhan Hansa 21:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the way this discussion is moving, but I suggest that the remaining links be replaced with

{{dmoz|Computers/Internet/Cybercafes/Gaming/|Cybercafe gaming}}

This site also has many of the deleted links and anyone should be free to add their favorite links to that site. It is the solution used in many articles to solve this sort of problem. Does anyone see a problem going in this direction? JonHarder 00:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure that's a lot better then listing them here, at any rate. Kopf1988 20:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
DMOZ is completely unreliable considering they are always down and is not worth even listing here, the external links should be put back. If your looking to stir up more link trouble head over to LAN party Freakdomination 04:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Good point. I've cleaned it up. JonHarder 05:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I just looked at the DMOZ index now and it looks fine and works fine. Suggest you try again. Your attempted deletion of a discussion on the administrators noticeboard could however be construed as stirring up trouble. Please don't do that again. — Moondyne 06:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Well maybe you should look again, so you can find out dmoz is broken indefintly and those pages are only static. check the forums at dmoz Freakdomination 07:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
using the igames directory should be sufficient since the dmoz directory doesn't work. Freakdomination 07:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you have a problem with your computer. I checked again and its working fine. Your link to igames has been removed as it is spam. — Moondyne 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you are just looking hard enough... http://www.resource-zone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45325 Freakdomination 08:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

(resetting indent) dmoz not working isn't a reason to add the links back in - Wikpipedia is not a directory. The dmoz link is a sop. If it's not working there's no problem with getting rid of it and having this simply be an encyclopedia article, instead of a place for LAN gaming participants to use as a directory. External links should be to sites that add encyclopedic value, a list of currently open gaming centers isn't encyclopedic information. --Siobhan Hansa 12:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a certain few editors are looking to single out this article for some reason take a look at LAN party and see if that article follows the wikipedia guidelines. 66.93.251.126 06:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think folks are trying to single this article out. If there are problems with LAN party, they should be fixed, too. What are your concerns about LAN party? Links? If so, which ones? --A. B. (talk) 09:38, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
DMOZ is preferred over "no links". "No links" are preferred over bad links. Wikipedia is not responsible for the functioning of DMOZ at any given moment. So bad links don't go in this article. --A. B. (talk) 09:40, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has enveloped the LAN Party page which, until JonHarder got involved, had a small and relevant selection of links, the purpose of which was decided 3 years ago and had been well maintained up until then. Again, the arguement of linking to DMOZ was brought up despite the same arguements presented here - DMOZ being unreliable and of low quality. I know some of you are on your crusade against external links, but there are some external links which are indeed relevant to an article and as you can see from the response here and over in the LAN Party discussion page, there is support for these external links. Thanks for reading, Murray-Mint-UK 10:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] editprotected

Someone should:

  • Add {{vprotected}} to it.
  • Possibly lowercase the last two words, as they are not proper nouns.

Thanx. 68.39.174.238 22:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The template has been added. Are you referring to the title? Makes sense to me. Anyone know of a valid reason why it should be capitalised? And the same question about Video Game Center ? -- zzuuzz (talk) 22:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links revisited

There is renewed disagreement about the value and appropriateness of a link to the iGames website. Over the last several months, a link to that website plus others have been added and removed at least two dozens times. The activity has been quite contentious at times, with deceptive edit summaries, personal attacks and other unfortunate behavior. A majority of reinsertions (18) have been done by five IP addresses assigned to Games Plus, Inc (the 66.93.251.112/28 block), editors demonstrating affiliation with Games Plus and other users who have appeared only or mainly to edit this article. The latest reinsertion is to iGames search forms for "finding a center."

I continue to believe that the DMOZ site is sufficient, that the iGames link is not a helpful addition and should be removed. The iGames site has an objectionable amount of advertising and prominently solicits signup. The iGames site is easily found in the DMOZ listing, so it is doesn't need to be duplicated here. The article mentions nothing about searching for or finding a center, so apparently that aspect is not particularly relevant; the article does not demand the link. In a sense, the main text of the article should drive the links or the links section just becomes a repository. As the policy states, Wikipedia is not the white pages or the yellow pages. ✤ JonHarder talk 19:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with JonHarder. The continued insertion of this link violates WP:External links, WP:Conflict of interest, and WP:Spam, among others. The link is already included via the DMOZ template, which is a link repository. But even if the site were not at DMOZ, there is simply no good reason for such a link to be in this encyclopedia article. -- Satori Son 20:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
The link to iGames does not violate WP:External links or WP:Conflict of interest because it is being added from a neutral POV and I have nothing to do with iGames. the only reason I edit here at the cybercafe from this IP is because the school is blocked! 66.93.251.114 03:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank goodness we have JonHarder to save us from ourselves! Time to award another WikiMedal! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.34.228 (talk • contribs) 03:13, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The sarcasm above is brought to us from the same IP whose major contributions have been to spam for Chris Bryant of bryantadvantage.com and to remove competitors' links. Your comment is neither constructive nor helpful for improving this article. ✤ JonHarder talk 16:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Revisting the Exterenal Links. iGames is of unequivical value to this artcile. iGames is the ONLY way to get licenses to run EA, Micrsoft, Sony, Ubisoft, etc Games. Beyond that iGames is an alliance of lan centers that has over 500 lan centers in it and holds competitive events, etc. I also added links to the Valve Cyber Cafe Program from Valve Games and the Blizzard Game Center program- these programs only offer licensing though. Do not delete the links again. Mwarhead 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

But since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a business "how to" guide, those are not compelling reasons to include the links here. And the iGames.org link is included at DMOZ, which is already linked here, so readers can still find it if they want to. If iGames was notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article, such a link would be appropriate over there, but not here. I have removed again. -- Satori Son 21:28, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
iGames is notable enough to have an article on itself and so is Game Center Licensing. I think you need to do some actual research instead of harpooning peoples articles unfairly. The people posting in this article seem to all be involved in the Game Center industry and in some way and are writing a well written article based on facts not just made up feelings. Please do research before you delete anything again. Mwarhead 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
DMOZ was replaced with LanAtomic. DMOZ is a really old outdated lan center listing. It lists a handful of lan centers most are out of business. LanAtomic is an open lan center directory that is updated very frequently including ratings of lan centers, tournaments, etc.Mwarhead 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not true. The DMOZ link has been in the article since early November and is not outdated. It even includes the iGames.org link you want to add, so why would you delete it? -- Satori Son 23:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


DMOZ is a poorly laid out directory that lists only a very small precent of the over 500 lan centers just in the United States and Canada alone. I attempted to add many centers to it in the past to find the submit url was broken at the time (although is now working). If I were to manually add all of the centers to it then it wouldnt be useful as it doesn't categorize them. A listing by State and country is much much much more useful. IF we are not going to be linking to many sites, why not link to one thats actually useful. Mwarhead 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all, you are close to violating the Wikipedia:Three-revert rule and I have placed the required notice on your talk page. Second, I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of Wikipedia. Once again, this is an encyclopedia, not a directory (see WP:NOT#DIRECTORY) or business "how-to" guide. There is simply no encyclopaedic reason for the link to your website to be included here. -- Satori Son 00:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I have been asked to get involved here and I am. judging by most other articles here on wikipedia the external link he is trying to get added is very appropriate, further I think a link to the igames should be added aswell. BigTimeGamer 00:27, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. As a brand new user you would possibly be unaware of our polices regarding external links. Wikipedia is not a directory and there is no case for adding external links to directory web sites. As is already happening, as soon as one link is added we soon accumulate a long list of external links. Wikipedia's policy is that rather than allowing this to happen, linking to a related category in the Open Directory Project which is devoted to creating relevant directories of links pertaining to various topics is a better solution. —Moondyne 01:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

A few things here. A. That's not my website. B. I am no way a part of LanAtomic.com other then I use it to find LAN Gaming Centers. C. Why would you link to a site thats not helpful instead of one that is? Obviously you have no clue about anything on this subject mater and I find it offensive that you are telling people that do what we should put in the article. I request that a higher moderator intervene and no futurer actions be taken by the current moderators.Mwarhead 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am another admin and i am interveneing and I support the previous administrators decisions. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I happen to have read over WP:EL throughly before putting my 2 cents into this article and the links in question fit the standards of WP:EL to the T. BigTimeGamer 01:19, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That link is not an appropriate external link. It is spammy and wikipedia is not for advertising websites. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Then remove DMOZ as well because it does not in any way shape or form represent an quality or useful external link.Mwarhead 01:33, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Why is there even a external link category if every single external link is singled out as spam? BigTimeGamer 01:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


Apparently, per the above discussion, the DMOZ has a quasi consensus to stay and therefore no consensus to remove. On the other hand, your links have been removed and complained about by many editors. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Moderator Attention

This was posted in my user page

"== combative behavior ==

If you continue your disruptive, combative and Uncivil behavior behavior, you will be blocked. Thanks! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 01:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)"


[edit] Reply by Mwarhead

Chris I did not start the combative or disruptive behavior. I simply intended to improve a VERY poor article. I stated my reasons for the changes to the article several times and asked for a written statement as to why the link did not meet the external linking requirements (which it appears to meet those requirements the best it can) in both the talk pages for the Lan Gaming Center and in private messages to both the moderators. Neither moderator provided a reason other then to try and defend DMOZ. In that line of thinking you could have added both links. The moderators involved continually reverted the article after it had been edited by many sources to remove the DMOZ link and add a better equivalent. It seems to me that this is combative, but the moderators vs. the contributors. Every single contributor is in agreement that there should be either no links or a link to LanAtomic. The moderators seem to be the only ones in agreement that it should stay.

I ask again that the moderators actually research Lan Gaming Centers and then come back and add to the discussion instead of hindering those that actually know what they are talking about.Mwarhead 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not in this in an effort to make a decision one way or the ther about the article personally(I.E. i have no personal preference which way it should go). In situations like this i try to stay as disconnectd form the article as I can. I have read the discussion and viewed the edit history. from what I can see, the consensus is against adding the links. I posted that comment about your combative behavior on your talk page due to the combative and uncivil replies that you left there. I am here to enforce consensus, and in no other capacity. I have no conflict of interest in this situation, and making a decision about which would be more appropriate may give me one. Hope this helps, thanks. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 03:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Chris, I asked and requested an outside moderator to come in and make a decission on what is being discussed here. As you can read above the concensus by the moderators is the keep the DMOZ link. The consensus by the actual article contributors is that the DMOZ link is of poor quality and either should replaced with a higher quality link like LanAtomic or not used at all. Mwarhead 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I am an outside admin. I have no affiliation with this article nor do I care what it is about. I have read the links. the link you are adding has lots of advertisements and other links in it. This is very frowend upon in the external links section because somebody makes money off of it. THe current link, the DMOZ link has no advertisements and seems like a much better choice for the external links section. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 03:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
"dmoz not working isn't a reason to add the links back in - Wikpipedia is not a directory. The dmoz link is a sop. If it's not working there's no problem with getting rid of it and having this simply be an encyclopedia article, instead of a place for LAN "gaming participants to use as a directory. External links should be to sites that add encyclopedic value, a list of currently open gaming centers isn't encyclopedic information. --Siobhan Hansa 12:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think the intent, at least my intent, for the article is for it to describe what a LAN gaming center is and some of the typical products and services they offer. In other wods my intent is for the article to be very informative for the millions of people that have never been to a lan gaming center. Compare this article to the article on baseball for example. First we explain what a lan gaming center is and maybe talk about the popularity of lan gaming centers in the USA and other countries. After that we could talk about variation in lan centers and lan centers importance in the competitive gaming world linking to other wikipedia articles on competitive gaming. Finally I wanted to added a directory of lan centers as a link in the article for those looking for a lan gaming center. This is similar to how Leagues are linked to in the Baseball page. Anyways, I think the whole article needs a rewrite and will begin working on that as time permits.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwarhead (talk • contribs)
You are welcome to contribute to the article, enhance it etc etc. However, the link to the langaming website is innapropriate. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 03:47, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
To be honest Chris, the Cyberathlete_Professional_League & Cyberathlete_Amateur_League articles has more "sponsorship" and "Buy Buy" than the iGames link does. Even the Wikipedia article cites current sponsors and links directly to their commercial sites. I agree the article needs a major NPOV, but I disagree that the link should not be allowed in there, AFTER a complete article re-write. Starblazer 06:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Improvements

I have a few questions:

What are the guidelines for posting images in an article on Wikipedia? I assume we need permission (should be easy enough to get), outside of that what other conditions are there?

Also are there any rules regarding references?

I have edited the article and tagged it for not citing references. I have also tagged this discussion page to note that LAN Gaming Centers are a big part of Profession Gaming which should be mentioned in the article somewhere when improved.Mwarhead 13:35, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poorly written and poorly referenced.

This article fails to show what a LAN Gaming Center is and IMO it should be rewritten with proper references.

I don't know why editors discard the IGames directory or LANAtomic as accurate reference to LAN Centers around the world and take DMOZ which is extremely innacurate.

Someone suggested to merge this with PC Bang. That would be a mistake. The term PCBang comes from the Korean LAN Gaming centers, which is a regional term for the more generic LAN Gaming Center name.

The article is justified as people I know had assignments from their business classes and they chose to make a paper on LAN Gaming centers. Unfortunately, with these back and forth issues, my friends are frustrated as Wikipedia is not a good resource for this particular matter. I hope the issues are corrected and the proper references and links are in place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.91.172.36 (talk) 16:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

I propose a complete article rewrite, i have a few sources and want to completely revamp this article and improve upon it with sources. If anyone opposes this i would like to discuss why and how we can work that out. Otherwise i will begin doing such things.Ph3onix (talk) 10:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't know whether I oppose your changes or not because you haven't disclosed what you intend to do. I agree the article needs work, but your very first edit was not particularly helpful. What are your plans? — Satori Son 13:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose to add a history of lan gaming centers, how they were originally conceived and some of the major events that occurred in lan centers that have affected the media and eSports/gaming as a whole. I believe it should look more like the movie theatre article as well. Ph3onix (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
That certainly sounds good to me. As long all information is attributed to reliable sources, it would be a nice improvement to this stub. — Satori Son 00:44, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Merge to PC bang

  • Oppose Merge - different terms, different place, different side of the world. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 17:18, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Merge. Not sure what the proposer's rationale is, but I don't see the logic in this. If anything, PC bang should be a redirect to Internet cafe or here. -- Satori Son 17:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Merge I agree with what Satori Son has to say in this matter BigTimeGamer 19:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Merge entirely. PC Bang should stay as its own article. —Moondyne 00:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose Merge. PC Bang isn't even the proper name in English. If anything gets merged, it should be PC Bang into LAN gaming centre. Cavenba 20:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Article Improvements and Rewrite with References

Please place the content and ideas of the article rewrite if anyone has something to contribute to it. it should be placed here and name the references. So we can get this up smoothly.Ph3onix (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perhaps Move To Video Game Center

Hmmmm I remember an article (can't remember if I created it) about a more general 'video game center' - ie a modern arcade. I was thinking if anything this "Lan Gaming Center" would be merged into that, not the other way around. A video game center is a more overarching term, sorta more appropriate.... but then again video game center would make it seem too much like video arcade which is totally not applicable. Kopf1988 (talk) 13:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)