Talk:Laksa
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[edit] Served in
The article repeated "X laksa is served in Y", which makes no sense -- it implies that laksa is a mysterious X something dropped into a Y before serving. Instead, curry laksa is a curry-based noodle soup and that's what it says now. Jpatokal 16:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sarawak laksa is entirely a different type of laksa.
If you want to categorize the Sarawak laksa, you should at least categorize it under Curry Laksa instead of Asam Laksa this is because it is more similar to the curry laksa, not the asam laksa. Otherwise, it should be classified as a different type of laksa as the Sarawak laksa's soup is neither curry nor fish gravy at all.
P/s: Singapore laksa is the bomb. I love it. (Matt McSales 15:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Laksam is related to Asam Laksa!
Another fact that you guys got mixed up is the Kelantanese Laksam. It should be categorized under asam laksa as it is preepared like asam laksa. That's why it's called Laksam, acronym for Laksa Asam. (Matt McSales 15:49, 10 June 2007 (UTC))
- Err,
== no. The laksam I've had has always been rich, coconutty, and completely non-assam. I agree that it's a "fish paste" laksa, not a "curry" laksa, but it hardly qualifies as assam if it's not sour! See eg. [1]. Jpatokal 16:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
-
- Hmm. I think we need to develop a two-dimensional laksa matrix: coconut vs non-coconut, and fish paste vs curry. Jpatokal 03:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
| Coconut | Assam | |
|---|---|---|
| Curry | Laksa lemak Katong laksa |
Sarawak laksa |
| Fish paste | Johor laksa Laksam |
Penang laksa Ipoh laksa |
I think you should also add, Laksa from Indonesia...As you know, there are also some Laksas found in Jakarta, called Laksa Betawi, as well as Laksa Bogor. And you should also know about Laksa served in Tangerang (Banten Province)
[edit] Box
The transliterations in the box are either hidden or don't appear at all. This is no good. The transliterations should appear. Badagnani 03:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Box, again
Shouldn't the Hokkien name be included in the box? Badagnani 03:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What is the name of the noodle itself?
Is "laksa" the name of the dish, or the uncooked/raw noodle itself? Badagnani 23:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's the name of the dish. Chensiyuan 00:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The dish. The noodles used vary greatly between versions. Jpatokal 02:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- To clarify my own comment: these is one type of noodle known as "laksa noodle", which may or may not be used in laksa. See Talk:Chinese noodles#Laksa. Jpatokal 05:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The dish. The noodles used vary greatly between versions. Jpatokal 02:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Persian laksa?
Regarding this, I'd like to see a few more scholarly sources than a Middle Eastern cookbook for this rather unusual theory. Bald assertions like ""laksa" must have been an old Malay dish" are not encyclopedic. Jpatokal 05:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Persian "Laksha" vs. Sanskrit "Laksha"
I found out that the term "laksha" is a Medieval Persian word for "noodle" from a book by Ghillie Basan, The Middle Eastern Culinary (2001) p.125. If someone is not satisfied, you may check it from the book. Now, the Iranians refer to "noodle" as "reshteh".
If Laksa is originated from the Chinese, it would not be that spicy. Futhermore if Malays adopt a dish from another culture, they would retain the name of the ingredient. For example, Malay refer to "noodle" as "mee" or "mi" and they do not give any Sanskrit name to it.
The same goes with "rice vermicelli", the Malays refer to it as "bee hoon" or "bihun" and "koey tiaw" or "keutiau", depending on the size of the pasta. We called chapati, "roti capati" which undeniably has some Urdu origin in its name. We called cake, "kek". We maintained the English pronunciation but we use our own spelling system.
I am strongly against the original article of 'Laksa' which depicted as though Laksa comes from the Peranakan Chinese. The Peranakan Chinese simply improvised it. If one comes to the north of Malaysia and taste the authentic Kedah Laksa, one will understand that Laksa is undoubtedly a Malay dish. The gravy is distintively Malay with the "daun kesum", "bunga kantan", "belacan", chillies, the dried sliced "gelugor" and the ground fish flesh. There is no Chinese influence at all in it. We do not use fish balls or fish cakes. In fact, even during my childhood days in the 1970s, my grandmother used to make the homemade fresh rice noodle by herself. We do not use any version of Chinese dried rice noodle. The Chinese dried rice noodle is definitely a much later improvisation or for the matter of convenience.
If one comes from Singapore, one will think Laksa is a Peranakan Chinese invention. Only if you are born in the north Malaysia, then only you can understand the Malayness of Laksa. As the Penang Chinese developed their own version of Penang Laksa, the use of "petis" (shrimp caramel) also become acceptable to the Malays. I guess Laksa in a way bind the Malays and Chinese together.
I find the argument that the word laksa derive from Sankrit "laksha" is rather hilarious. In the olden days, before the coming of the British, Malays did use the word 'laksa' to mean 5 figures amount in number. Now the term has become obsolete and has been replaced with "puluh ribu". That 'laksa' definitely derive from Sanskrit. Why should we refer to a dish in terms of mathematical figure? Furthermore when I read the book by Basan, she does not trying to justify that laksa is a Persian invention. She was talking about wheat and about an old version of noodle that Persians used to produce hundred of years ago. Nothing in the book ever mention about South East Asian laksa. By knowing that "laksha" was the word for "noodle" in Medieval Persian, then it strikes me that laksa derive from the very same word.
If one want to know more about the arrival of Persian traders in Kedah several centuries ago which is archaeologically supported, you may visit the Lembah Bujang Archaeological Museum in Merbok, Kedah in northern Malaysia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrinaomar (talk • contribs) 06:14, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- A few of your assertions are obviously wrong. There are lots of spicy Chinese dishes in Malaysia/Singapore: chilli crab, mee pok, etc. Sanskirt (via Hindi/Tamil) words are used in Malay, consider eg. the words roti, raja, putra, suka, utara etc and go read up on Old Malay, "heavily influenced by Sanskrit".
- More importantly, though, Wikipedia does not care what you think. You need to show some scholarly research for these claims and no, a cookbook is not enough.
- So here's the entry for laksa in an etymological dictionary of Singlish:
laksa /lahk-sah, ÈlAksA/ n. [Mal., a mixture of vermicelli and fish-paste (Winstedt; Wilkinson says the term is < Hind. & Pers. lakhshah a kind of vermicelli (NMS suggests Pers. laksha vermicelli), but the word has not been found in McGregor or Palmer); poss. < Skt. लकशस् lakshas, लकशम् laksham a lac, one hundred thousand (Monier-Williams), f. its numerous ingredients (see September 2006 quot.) (> Hind. लख lakh (chiefly a prefix) one hundred thousand; fig. a vast number; लकश lakṣ one hundred thousand (McGregor)); or perh. < Pers. لخشه lakhsha, لخشك lakhshak a type of frumenty (a dish made of hulled wheat boiled in milk, and seasoned with cinnamon, sugar, etc.), a certain sweetmeat (Johnson)]
- That's at least three different derivations for the term. They should definitely all be covered here in Wikipedia, but I don't see how you can assert that one of them is Right and the others are Wrong.
- Also, regardless of where the word laksa comes from, I think it's pretty clear that the dish in anything like its present form originates in Malaya. Jpatokal 16:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Laksa : Some further anecdote
I found the term "lakhsha" from the book The Middle Eastern Kitchen by Ghillie Basan, published by Kyle Cathy Limited (2001). The book emphasizes on the Middle Eastern cuisine and was talking about the essential ingredients of the Middle Eastern cuisine. The term "lakhsha" appeared under the heading of Wheat at page 125.
She mentioned, and allow me to quote it in verbatim,
"[M]edieval culinary manuals refer to fresh noodles as lakhsha, a Persian word and to dry noodles as itriyya. By the thirteenth century, the word lakhsha was replaced by rishta (reshteh in Farsi) also a Persian word which is what the noodles are called today."
Well, I guess this is clear how the Malays got the term laksa. Please do not tell me that the Peranakan Chinese invented the dish and gave it a Persian name. Even if the original writer of the laksa article considers the Sanskrit word as the origin for the word laksa, but why on earth the Singaporean Peranakan Chinese want to adopt a Sanskrit word for a dish that was invented by them? The technology of "laksa beras" or fresh homemade noodle may come from the Indians. This can be seen from the making of "putu mayam". But this is merely my guess work. But 'putu mayam is a dessert and not a savoury dish. Since Italian spaghetti and laksa are both savouries and we can see the Middle Eastern connection now, it is not at all impossible that laksa was brought by the Persian traders to this region several centuries ago.
While I was in Iran early this year, the Iranians, who are the modern Persians love a stew dish made from noodles, tomato soup, lemon juice and dill. Tomato soup might be an addition after Colombo found the Americas but dill and noodles definitely remind me a lot of laksa. This stew might have been originated hundred of years ago.
I hope the original writer of the article do make some study on Malays' Asam Pedas. In fact I would suggest her or him to have an in-depth study of Indonesian food as well. If one study the South East Asian food, the South East Asians be it the Malays, the Indonesians, the Thais or the Burmese love to add aromatic herbs in their cuisine. The Thais love the kaffir lime leaves, the lemonstalk and the galangal. The Minangkabaus of Sumatera love the ruku-ruku (tropical basil)and the turmeric leaves. The Javanese love the daum salam (Indonesian bay leaves or in Malay, daun samak) and the Menados of the Sulawesi loves daun kemangi (tropical basil).
In Malaysia and Singapore, laksa definitely comes from the Malays. If the original writer wants to write an article dedicated to Peranakan laksa, she (or he) may do so. But please do not sideline the Malays' contribution in the evolution of laksa in Malaysia and Singapore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrinaomar (talk • contribs) 16:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
