Talk:Lake freighter

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Contents 1 Name 2 Photos 3 Museums 4 schedule 5 Why?

[edit] Name

The expression "lakers" is ambiguous. People mostly concerned with the Great Lakes, when they wish to distinguish dry-bulk carrying vessels that only trade there ("Lakes-only bulkers") from oceangoing vessels that trade both there and elsewhere in the world, often use the expression "lakers" to mean "Lakes-only bulkers" and "salties" to mean the others.

On the other hand, people concerned with international shipping in general and not specially focussed on the Great Lakes mostly ignore the "Lakes-only bulkers" and use the expression "lakers" to mean "Lakes-fitted bulkers." These are a subset of smallish handysize bulkers with suitable cargo-handling gear and beam of no more than 23 point something meters. (Sorry, I don't know exactly.) "Lakers" in this sense go everywhere and one might be chartered for a voyage from Thunder Bay to Rotterdam or Jedda or Singapore. Thus international people use "laker" to mean what the Lakes folk mean by "salty." (N.B.: Some other types of smaller ships that carry bulk cargoes trade on the Lakes as well and are not called "lakers" by anybody.)

The Wikipedia article "Lake freighter" follows the usage described in the first paragraph above and would be confusing to somebody who had been talking to an international shipbroker, e.g., who had referred to a certain vessel as a "laker". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mstarli (talk • contribs) 07:21, 26 June 2006

While the term "laker" is ambiguous (being understood differently by different groups), there really is no other universally accepted term to refer to "Great Lakes bulk carriers" without using all four words. Common usage calls them "ore boats" regardless of what is actually in the hold, but that is known only on the Great Lakes. One might call them "lake boats", but few outside the lakes know that Great Lakes sailors commonly refer to their "ships" as "boats". (Apparently this is the result of an historic differentiation between sailing "ships" and steam "boats".) I believe that using the term "laker" works fine, given that the first paragraph sets the definition for the purposes of this article (and given that in an article about Great Lakes boats it makes sense to use terms as Great Lakes people use them). —Preceding unsigned comment added by RDavS (talk • contribs) 00:32, 13 April 2007

[edit] Photos

Moving the Edmund Fitzgerald down the page in favour of starting the page with the John B. Aird is a little problematic given that the Aird has a wheelhouse-aft configuration. While a number of larger vessels have been built in recent years with the wheelhouse aft, the classic laker design puts the wheelhouse forward. If another free (not fair use) image of a wheelhouse-forward laker can be found and uploaded, it might be a good candidate for the top of the article... but arguably, that shot of the Edmund Fitzgerald is the iconic image of the laker. Susan Davis 06:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Museums

For whoever keeps adding the Niagara to the museum section: The Niagara that currently resides in Erie is a reproduction of a frigate that was used in the War of 1812, not a lake frieghter.

You are confusing the Brig Niagara with the SS Niagara which is owned by the Steamship Niagara Museum, Inc.[1][2]. I can't tell whether the ship is actually open as a museum though. Rmhermen 04:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The SS Niagara was retired as a sand dredge in 1985. Efforts to turn her into a museum failed and she was scrapped in 1997. See http://digin.bgsu.edu/vsl_sch.htm for more info. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cason (talk • contribs) 20:53, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

While the future tense of the page does allow that it may still exist, I agree there is no reason to list it as a museum here. Rmhermen 21:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

-There is absolutly no chance of the Arthur Atkinson becoming a museum ship. She is totally stripped and in poor condition. With the number of museum ships already in danger, any money availible will go to those ships. There also dozens of more historic choices as museums. (added by Cason, 23:47, May 29, 2007 )

[edit] schedule

A question: Do lake freighters return empty after unloading or take other goods and/or materials back to the source of loading?

Answer: Yes. Both scenarios occur. The more independent the shipping company is from a particular industry, the more it gets cargoes where it can find them. For example, a boat may bring a cargo of iron ore from Two Harbors to Cleveland and return with a cargo of coal. Or it may proceed empty ("light") from Cleveland to Erie and load coal there. If a boat's ownership is closely tied to the steel industry, it may take a cargo of coal back to Minnesota if one is available, but may return empty so the cargo more important for its owners keeps moving with the least amount of delay. Some boats haul one cargo exclusively, others alternate between two or three, and others see a wide variety of cargoes and ports. RDavS 23:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Often empty - there aren't many huge bulk loads that need to head up north compared to the number that come down from the mines to the mills and plants. Rmhermen 00:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why shouldn't this article list all the lake freighters still afloat? There are only 120 or so. Geo Swan (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think creating a separate list-article List of lake freighters or List of current lake freighters would be warranted. This article is nice as it is, though it could certainly refer to a list of all examples. There are many pairs of articles in wikipedia of that nature (one article about a type of something, one list-article of many or all examples of that type). doncram (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I would lean towards creating one list for all lake freighters first, not just current lakers. One source for that list-article would be "Historical Collections of the Great Lakes / Great Lakes Vessels Online Index / University Libraries / Bowling Green State University" at http://ul.bgsu.edu/cgi-bin/xvsl2.cgi which is a source in a DYK article from today (Michigan Limestone and Chemical Company) that mentions the first unloading laker, Wyandotte. doncram (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)