Talk:Lager

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[edit] Ale vs "Lager"

Many contributors to this encyclopaedia are incorrectly using the term "lager" when they mean bottom fermented Ale or Beer. There are two main types of yeast - top fermenting yeast and bottom fermenting yeast. In the UK, Ireland and Belgium, the predominant method of brewing uses top fermenting yeast. In Germany and central Europe (Czech Republic and other places) the predominant method uses bottom fermenting yeast.

The term lager is almost exclusively used in the UK and Ireland (possibly in other English speaking countries). It would never be used by a German Brewer to describe a beer. It is used to describe a brewing process - lagering is storing beer until the fermentation has slowed down to a specific point; this is a process that tends to be used for bottom fermented beers; although top fermented beers do have to go through a period of conditioning.

Bottom fermented beers can be light, dark, strong, weak, wheat beers etc... calling them lager is a misnomer.

The products marketed as lager in the UK was inevitably very light and bore a passing resemblance to Pilsner beers, or Budweiser beers (those from the Czech? towns of Pilsen and Budweis respectively). However this was as often as not Top fermented beer, anyway! So to compare bottom fermented beers with lager is an insult to continental brewers.

[edit] The Lager Brothers

I got this from a site regarding the etymology for "lager beer" : there were two brothers named Gottfried and Sigmund Lager (c1400-1470) who founded a famous brewery in Dortmund. In the 1440s they quarrelled and Gottfried upped and moved to Munich where he prospered by selling this strong, pale beer. Jay 19:22, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The above contradicts the established wisdom that the term lager derives from the German word meaning 'to store'.


I am not aware of any McEwan's beers that are lagers... They are all ales, as far as I know. Can anyone confirm this?

McEwans do make a lager, but their main beers are the 70 & 80 shilling, which are ales. The examples of lagers given here are a joke: Scotland has twice as many lager examples as Germany, where both the Scottish brewers mentioned aren't even particularly known for lager, and the German brewer is by far not the largest producer. And Jever isn't even particularly bitter. I'll make some changes, starting with deletuing these:
  • Tennents : Scottish, standard international lager
  • McEwan's : Scottish, strong rivalry with Tennent's
That's better ---- Charles Stewart 23:24, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccuracy - or not as the case may be

"The most evident difference compared to the yeast that was used in the rest of Europe is that lager yeast deposits on the bottom after the fermentation rather than rising on the top."

While lager yeast is "bottom-fermenting" and ale yeast is "top-fermenting", this is during fermentation. After fermentation both ale and lager yeasts fall to the bottom, a process known as flocculation.

Top fermenting yeast has to be helped to flocculate - hence the use of finings which are usually isinglass. It is only then that the yeast will fall to the bottom.

Some yeasts have high levels of flocculation, and some have low levels of flocculation (such as those used in hefeweizens), but yeast do not flocculate to the top. If the yeast does not fall to the bottom after fermentation, then the beer will be cloudy.

[edit] History of lager

There needs to be a lot more development in this section and I don't have my sources close to hand. My understanding of the timeline is, roughly:

  • Lagering is practiced during the medieval period in the Alps and southern Holy Roman Empire
  • Sometime in the 14th(?) century, lager yeast emerges as a distinct species. Medieval brewers, not knowing anything about microbiology, didn't classify beers by yeast except vaguely by top or bottom fermentation.
  • Bock is invented
  • Lager brewing is forbidden within city walls until the Reformation.
  • The Reinheitsgebot applies to both ale and lager.
  • Lagers gradually become the dominant style of beer in protestant parts of German-speaking lands.
  • Pale malt, and then Pilsener malt, are introduced to the Continent from Britain.
  • 1830s: The Carlsberg brewing family begins formal research into the biology of beer. Saccharomyces carlsbergensis is named in their honor.
  • Mass emigration of Central Europeans to the US. Establishment of US Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Michelob brands.
  • Austrian lager styles migrate to Bohemia ("disappearance" of Vienna & Munich lagers)
  • First World War. Prohibition in the US.
  • 1930: Continuous Fermentation discovered. Industrialization of lager brewing in Europe.
  • Post-WWII: pale lager becomes dominant beer style throughout Europe and North America. Beer begins to be sold en masse in Asia, with lager rapidly becoming dominant. Austrian styles remain in production east of Iron Curtain.
  • Recent: Consolidation of macro-breweries, expansion of contract brewing.
  • Since 1970's: Establishment of craft microbreweries producing lagers in the US
  • Since 1990's: Cask lager production expands in Britain. Starts with Cains and Harviestoun?

Anyway, obviously these are all still just scratch notes. --Stlemur 09:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Making lager

How is this anything but discussion for home-brewers? Certainly home-brewers can appreciate the experience of drinking a beer, but it is illusion to think that the opposite is true: that beer drinkers would like to know how to make the beer. There is a home-brewing section here already - why doesn't "how to make lager" belong in that section? Mikebe (talk) 08:44, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

None of us? And why do you assume this article is only for beer drinkers? Anyway, a how to guide to making beer does not belong on wikipedia, it belongs on wikibooks. What does belong here, and in this article a description of lager making, including historical perspecive, economic perspective and a contrast to the process of making other beers.Taemyr (talk) 09:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There should be a section on producing lager

  1. The fact is, lager is one of the most consumed products on the planet. Not having detailed information on its manufacture would be like not having an article on dairy farming.
  2. The argument that the section, as written or in any reasonable form, applies only to homebrewing is, simply, nonsensical; the accusation ties into a long-standing, acrimonious discussion on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject_Beer.
  3. There are elements of lager production specific to lager, which aren't practiced in general brewing. As far as I know, nobody does industrial-scale continuous fermentation of ales (good luck even attempting continuous fermentation at home!). CH deserves its own article as well; it's an industrial process. --Stlemur (talk) 08:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Please not that wikipedia is not a how to guide. So a section like making lager, or producing lager is not really approriate. What is needed is an article on lager production. Taemyr (talk) 09:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think as written it is a how-to guide; describing what hops and malts are used is analogous to the description of grape varieties in, say, Rhône wine. I would agree that as the article expands spinning off the production section into its own article would be justified, but at the moment I don't think there's enough there for it. --Stlemur (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Its mainly the name that I have a problem with. Taemyr (talk) 11:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I've renamed it. --Stlemur (talk) 11:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you for straightening me out. Obviously I was very wrong. The next thing you know, I'll be asking crazy things like: Where's the article on producing ale? Where's the article on producing lambik? Where's the article on producing wheat beer? Where's the article on producing computers? On producing automobiles? On producing houses? And thanks for the comparison between beer and dairy farming. That's a real classic. Thanks! Mikebe (talk) 13:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Well lets see. In the order that I found them. For production of automobiles seeAutomotive industry. For houses there is several, I am from Norway, where wood is a common building material so Carpenter is a place to start. Architecture is an other. You might also want to take a look at Construction. Or Building#Creation. If you take a look at Ale you will see that both Ale#History of ale and Ale#Modern ale is primary concerned with production of ale. Lambik? What is it? Anyway try Lambic#brewing. I found no distinct place that discusses production of wheat beer, but note the introduction on Wheat beer. I hope this has been of help. Taemyr (talk) 12:58, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not opposed to any description of how something is produced. I am opposed to repeating the same information many times with minor variations. So, if you would like to know how beer (primarily lager) is made, why not look here here Beer#Brewing? Isn't that enough? All beer is furthermore, made more or less the same -- yes, there are differences in temperatures and ingredients, however, is it really necessary that minor difference needs to be described? Secondly, the description of producing something should be written in such a way that it is understandable by anyone and everyone (not only American home-brewers). This article is not as bad as some others I have seen, however, since lager brewing is already described in considerable detail in the article I cited, what is the purpose of the duplication here? Mikebe (talk) 14:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)