Talk:Ladakh

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	Ladakh is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
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To-do list for Ladakh:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Image issues (2006) Copyedit (2006) [9], Ptolemy [10], - refs to the end of the para. Try inotes. (2006) Format references (2007-12-26) The reference to the Hemis festival should really be changed to something like: A number of monasteries hold annual performances of the Cham Dances. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_dance> I suggest this partly to provide a useful cross-reference and partly because the performance at Hemis, as I witnessed it some years ago, is much less traditional and more tourist-oriented that those at most other Ladahki monasteries that hold Cham dance festivals.

Contents 1 Halliburton 2 Ferdinand Stoliczka 3 Wildlife 4 Pending tasks 5 Census data 6 Map 7 Missionary activities 8 Politics and 9 Links that could be of use 10 Sister projects 11 You Have the Tibetan Peoples Support 12 Tourism 13 Central Asia 14 The War on Prose 15 Ethnic squabbling 16 Changed link 17 Magnetic Hill 18 Temperatures in Leh? 19 Possible corrections 20 Minor correction 21 This is ungood 22 Please settle 23 featured article? You have to be kidding!

[edit] Halliburton

Anyone familiar with Richard Halliburton's writing on his visit to Ladakh as he was trekking around the world when he was straight out of college? I don't currently have a copy, but I seem to remember it had some pretty decent material, if anyone has one. -- Jmabel 08:10, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Did he ever visit Ladakh ?? Where did you read it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ladakh (talk • contribs) 19 March 2006

Yes, he describes the visit in The Royal Road to Romance (1925). I used to own a copy, but passed it on. - Jmabel | Talk 19:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ferdinand Stoliczka

Wonder if the contributions of Ferdinand Stoliczka to the study of the region could be added by someone knowledgeable. Shyamal 04:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I added a line in the beginning of the Wildlife section. deeptrivia (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wildlife

Needs to include information on the Wild Ass and Dromedary populations. The birds section currently lists a rather stray bunch of birds. There is so much more available in references such as Otto Pfisters book on the fauna of the region. Will try to add on more later. Shyamal 05:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Considering that there is vast amount of information available on this subject, I created a separate article Flora and fauna of Ladakh, which can be expanded further (of course, the section on this page also needs to be improved.) deeptrivia (talk) 05:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pending tasks

{{todo}}

---

I have removed the aryan references from the article Bharatveer 07:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Why? All books on Ladakh history talk about this. I have restored it. deeptrivia (talk) 12:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Pls see this AIT-BBCBharatveer

What does this have to do with this article? Do you know why Aryan was there in this article at the first place? deeptrivia (talk) 14:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

A majority of current inhabitants of Ladakh are of Tibetan origin, which are of Mongoloid descent. However, the first inhabitants of the region, the Dardi people were of Indo-Aryan descent and spoke Indo-Aryan languages. Therefore, it is important to clarify that the early inhabitants were Indo-Aryan, to emphasize that there has been a major change of demographics (see Tibetanization in the history section), sometime in the 8th century. deeptrivia (talk) 16:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Census data

I tried looking for latest data for birth rate/ death rate/ infant mortality rate, but could not come up with much. Did however get data for these: population ratio/ literacy ratio/ sex ratio/ worker to non worker etc. Should we take off the birth/ death rate etc and put this info instead, or is it mandatory for featured article aspirants to mention these? -- Lost 13:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The data you have found out are vital. Place those in "Demographics". It is not necessary to include thosa data in the infobox. Infobox may or may not have all demographics data. Worker data may find place in economy as well. These data would help the article a more encyclopedia look. --Dwaipayan (talk) 09:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The population density number doesn't match the area and population numbers. 200 000 / 45 000 ~= 4.4, not 3 as is stated in the article.

It is very difficult to state the population density for Ladakh, as the area is calculated by India as including vast areas of Pakistan-occupied and Chinese-occupied land, while the population figures reflect only the people under Indian administration.

[edit] Map

This map with 2 colors looks fine. But, where do you plan to describe the color coding?--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missionary activities

deeptrivia,

Surely, this is not the place where you can list the achievements of missionaries.Maybe you can create a new article for that.Bharatveer 04:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The activities and contributions of the Moravian missionaries are an important part of the history of Ladakh in the late 19th century. They did open the first modern school in Ladakh, and there's no reason why this shouldn't be mentioned in the article. To what extent was this a positive or a negative development is a subjective issue which this article doesn't go into. What exactly are your concerns? deeptrivia (talk) 05:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

1.Your earlier edits in the demography section like omission of 5% population of ladakh; mention of some 30 families of chrisitians (which i deleted)while all other religious communities are expressed in % ; statement regarding "nestorian" crosses; your similar pov pushing in the Leh article (which i modified).

These are some of the examples that shows you POV pushing. Maybe that explains why you feel the moravian missionaries activities are relevant. What i am saying is if you feel that it is relevant , you can create another article like "Missionary activites in Ladakh".Bharatveer 05:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not about what I feel or you feel. Most books on Ladakh history have whole chapters devoted to this. We do not have information about the remaining 5% of the population, so despite the fact that your claim that those 5% are Hindus and Sikhs is not verifiable, I didn't object as strongly as I should have because 5% is a small number, and I have better ways of using my wikipedia time than fighting about it. These 5% might all be atheists for all we know. Nestorian crosses is cited as an evidence of the fact that in ancient times there was contact between central asia and Ladakh. Christian community finds a mention only because we have reliable information about their numbers. If you have reliable information about number of Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Zoroastrians, Jews, Rastafarians, Bahais, etc. in Ladakh, you are highly encouraged to add that in the article. deeptrivia (talk) 05:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: By the way, all I ever did on the Leh article was add a picture of the town. Photos are bound to be taken from a Point of View, and nobody has ever succeeded in helping it. Take it easy :)) deeptrivia (talk) 05:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion that"These 5% might all be atheists for all we know." is not correct since we have the 1981 census data of Leh which states that 2.99% are hindus . So taking the whole population of ladakh, the percentage of hindus would surely be more than say 1%.But since there are no religious census data for Ladakh, it is ok not to mention it.

"so despite the fact that your claim that those 5% are Hindus and Sikhs is not verifiable, I didn't object as strongly as I should have because 5% is a small number," Now where did I claim that those 5 % were Hindus and sikhs and when i never made any claim ; how can you claim you made a concession for me regarding that? .Bharatveer 06:16, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

All your edits here are for everyone to see, so I'm not pursuing this any further. Extrapolation of Hindu population of Leh in 1981 to Hindu population of whole of Ladakh in 2001 is regrettably, not a reliable source. I highly encourage you to find another because it will be useful to the article to have data about Hindus and Sikhs. Also, I am reinserting the portions in the education section for the sake of continuity. We cannot jump straight from ancient times to the 2001 census without discussing the factors in the 19th century that led to a change in the education situation. deeptrivia (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand what you are trying to say. I never added anything abt hindu popu in ladakh.About the education section, your arguments are not convincing; i will remove them .Bharatveer 14:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong or POV with the current draft. [1] =Nichalp «Talk»= 07:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics and

Some observations:

1. What's the political condition? Lok Sabha ? Who won last time? I mean the political parties...
2. "The NDA government at Delhi introduced an annual Sindhu Darshan festival (held from June 12 to 14), which was renamed as the Ladakh Singhey-Khabab Spring Festival by the Ladakh Autonomous Hill Development Council at the behest of the Union tourism ministry of the UPA government, "to give the festival a local identity and delink it from Hindutva." The name change was opposed by the Ladakh Union Territory Front, which said that change of name, will affect its relevance" — is that really necessary? I mean three lines dedicated to this thing? The the festival can be described in "culture".
3. Have you considered more trimming? I have not the new avatar, but just on a glance, seems "Economy", "Flora and fauna" can be trimmed. In fact, I am afraid an average reader gets bored with so many kings' names in the History. Can it be made more "de-personalised"? The daughter article will give the interested reader an opportunity to to delve into the matter, but here IMO History needs serious trimming. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree and thought the same after adding it. Let me try to find more information about the current MPs, etc, and replace the festival controversy with that. I'm working on trimming too .. the article is far to lengthy right now.deeptrivia (talk) 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're trimming something here, please make sure the info is retained in the daughter article. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 12:35, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, Sundar, i'm too lazy to change stuff at both places anyway. deeptrivia (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links that could be of use

• Artificial glaciers a boon to water-starved farmers
• Where the gods walk tall

[edit] Sister projects

Is it necessary to have {{sisterlinks}} in the "Further reading" section, since only commons has any true reference to Ladakh ? Wikiquote has a passing reference to it, and so does Wikisource.--May the Force be with you! Shreshth91^{(review me!)} 11:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You Have the Tibetan Peoples Support

I must say, this is a wonderful article. I wish you all the best and watch out for the politically motivated "editors"! Me 06:13, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

You may want to add somewhere something about the constant crossing of the border by the Tibetan refugees from Tibet into Ladakh to escape the Chinese regime. Me 17:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The demographics section mentions that:

"Since the early 1960s their numbers have increased as Chang Tang nomads from across the border flee the Chinese-ruled Tibet. There are about 3,500 refugees in Leh alone."

If you have some more specific information, please share. I've recently obtained a few more books on Ladakh. One of them is "Beyond Lines of Control: Performance and Politics on the Disputed Borders of Ladakh, India", from Duke University Press. I'm sure it will have more information. We can probably have a whole new article on this situation. deeptrivia (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tourism

Anybody who has more info about Tourism in the Region. Not just what to go and where to visit, but when it was allowed, permits, etc.. Not to make it sound like a tourist brochure, but to give it more general info.K ganju 11:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a separate article Tourism in Ladakh and there's also an article on Wikitravel. Of course, these can be further improved. deeptrivia (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Central Asia

WikiProject Central Asia has finally been created! If you're interested, please consider joining us. Aelfthrytha 21:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The War on Prose

The War on Prose continues: [2]. "Vegetation is rare in Ladakh, except for the few narrow valleys, where wild roses, willow groves and some herbs could be seen. However, above that, due to the rapid decrease in temperature, vegetation becomes stunted and sparse" replaced by "Vegetation is extremely sparse in Ladakh except along streambeds and wetlands, on high slopes which recieve [sic; I'll fix it]] more snow, and where irrigated." I'm not sure if there is supposed to be a factual correction here (I don't see much difference) but it is certainly less evocative. Do we really need to lose "the few narrow valleys, where wild roses, willow groves and some herbs could be seen"? Is there anything inaccurate about it? - Jmabel | Talk 04:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, people think in a variety of different ways about it. Some put a lot of weight on conciseness while others prefer more evocative prose. Matters of style apart, the replaced text does away with accurate information about willows and wild roses which indeed fill up the narrow river valleys, and clarifies the fact that irrigated areas (which themselves are indeed in the narrow valleys) are also green (because of crops.) I just uploaded a picture to illustrate what it means. This is the widest valley in Ladakh, and most of the green area visible is due to irrigation from the river. Beyond this strip, it's all barren, except some thorny herbs in some pockets, as can be seen on bottom left. By all means, combine the two versions if you think it helps. deeptrivia (talk) 05:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll do that; just trying to make sure first that the mention of specific plants was not misleading. - Jmabel | Talk 04:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that was me. I'm very new to Wikipedia, and just wanted to make a factual correction. I agree the original prose was nicer, but the persistent myth that Ladakh's barrenness is due to its temperature irks me. The fact is, the sparse vegetation in Ladakh is entirely due to its aridity, and not at all due to the temperature. The inhabited parts of Ladakh and surrounding barren hillsides are in fact no colder, and often warmer, than well-forested parts of northern US and eastern Canada, most of Russia, etc. Also, the bit about "roses, willow groves and a few herbs" was not terribly accurate. The shrubs tamarisk and seabuckthorn are as common as roses, and quite a lot (dozens? hundreds?) of other shrubs and herbs grow wild in the valleys, while wild groves of willow are rare. Any visit to a pass will show you that foliage is much richer in high areas of Ladakh than in low areas (except where irrigated or along water). There are also natural wetlands in Ladakh with their own other varieties of flora. The recent NCERT class 7 Social Studies textbook even buys into it and says something like "Ladakh is a cold desert because the ground water is frozen all year round" (which would imply that Ladakhi farmers apply heat to grow their crops: remarkable!). I'm sorry I went and changed it myself instead of posting here. I'm a newbie. - BeckyLadakh

Please, feel very free to make it more accurate. Sounds like you know tremendously more on the topic than I. Specificity on plants is good, because it gives people something concrete, but feel infinitely free to change it to a more correct list. - Jmabel | Talk 00:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Ladakh can be very hot, when i was trekking in the Markha Valley in July it was upwards of 45 degrees celcius most days. But it is extremely cold in winter time.203.109.204.166 08:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)leeni247

Education: could someone mention the Lamdon school in leh. I'm unfamiliar with how to write an article and wouldnt want to drag down the quality of this one, but i have visited there and it was extremely well run203.109.204.166 08:03, 10 October 2006 (UTC)leeni247

Assuming you have a citation on this, write you can write your material here and someone will get it into the article. - Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic squabbling

I have no expertise here, but a change like this in a featured article should not pass without citation: does someone have one? "…violent riots between Buddhists and Muslims" became "…violent riots instigated by Muslims against Buddhists." "…half of Ladakhis are Tibetan Buddhist (50%), with most of the rest being Shia Muslims (49%)" became "…a plurality of Ladakhis are Tibetan Buddhist (50%), with many of the rest being Shia Muslims (40%)." In the latter case either the article was wrong before or it is wrong now. Citations? - Jmabel | Talk 03:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the statistics for religious demography appear odd. A certain number of Ladakhi Muslims, especially in Leh and Kargil towns, are Sunnis, though certainly there are more Shias in total. Still, Sunnis are more numerous in Leh than Christians, etc. There are also Nurbakshis in Turtuk area. I haven't heard of any Ladakhi followers of Bon, only a very small number among Tibetans (not Ladakhis): other religions among non-Ladakhi residents of Ladakh are probably more numerous than Bon. Sorry I don't have any numbers or sources, and the poor internet services here in Ladakh mean I can't search the net well. BeckyLadakh 20:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

JMabel, I had reverted the first diff that you talk about. Not too sure about the statistics. Will leave some messages with the people who contributed to the article -- Lost^(talk) 02:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

BeckyLadakh, there's one place with a satellite connection (a cafe on Changspa Lane from what I can remember, just after you cross the river?) that's faster and more reliable than the intermittent telephone and dial-up connections elsewhere in Leh if that's a help. Ask around in Leh as it was back in 2005 I was there.Beefy_SAFC 18:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changed link

Link change with no edit summary. I don't know whether this is link hijacking or a correction. I'm long since out of my depth on this article.

Similarly Gilgit Valley changed without explanation to Baltiyul in lead, an unusual change for a featured article. - Jmabel | Talk 00:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magnetic Hill

Interestingly, India's only known Magnetic Hill, which defies the Gravity, is in Ladakh. There are some reported Magnetic anomalies in the region, but defying gravity sounded out of the way. Shyamal 15:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I have re added the line. This because I have visited the place and experienced the gravity defying magnetic effect. Since there may be other such places, I am removing the word 'Only'.

Gktambe 21.16 December 31st, 2006.

Magnetism and gravity are different. You may need to cite a suitable geological publication on the topic if this article should be accurate or treated as a featured article. Shyamal 07:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have edited the line to say it's an optical illusion that appears to defy gravity. Next time you are at the “Magnetic Hill”, try this experiment we have done there several times.

At the place where you stop your car and it rolls in a direction that appears to be uphill, try the same thing with a glass or plastic bottle. It will roll the same direction although these objects contain no iron and cannot be affected by magnetism.

We have also taken a magnetic compass there more than once, and it always shows the same north as one would expect from the map. There is absolutely no magnetic disturbance in the area of the "Magnetic Hill."

In fact, the entire area of road visible at that point is a very steep hill that fools the eye by looking like a gentle hill. The small area of the "Magnetic Hill" appears to be sloping in the opposite direction but is actually just a decrease in the slope, a less-steep section of the slope. So your vehicle and bottle are indeed rolling downhill, although your eye is tricked into thinking it is uphill.

I've noticed that Ladakhis who farm are not tricked by the illusion, probably because their extensive irrigation experience makes them very perceptive of subtle slopes. They say, "Okay, the vehicle is rolling downhill. So what's the big deal?"

I’m sorry to puncture such a charming illusion, but it really is false! BeckyLadakh 11:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Temperatures in Leh?

The table with max and min temperatures for Leh looks a little unlikely, saying that the average max temp in Leh in July and August is about 17C. In my experience over many summers in and around Leh, sunny summer days reach over 25C. Rainy days are much cooler but are not the majority of days. Does anyone have a source for the data given in that chart, or else other data from a reliable source? BeckyLadakh 11:32, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible corrections

I'm nervous about making substantial changes, after my first try where I made a small factual change and caused a bitter reaction from the author. So I'd like to suggest some things that are less than accurate, and hope that a better writer than me makes the changes.

Be careful not to confuse Ladakhi culture with Buddhist traditions. I changed "Traditional Ladakhi music, like Tibetan music, often involves religious chanting in Tibetan or Sanskrit..." to "The music of Ladakhi Buddhist monastic festivals, like Tib..." because this music is only one kind of "traditional Ladakhi music" and the other kinds are not exclusive to Buddhists, nor similar to Tibetan music, but bear more similarity to music of Muslim regions to the west. For example, the daman and surna music played at weddings and festivals of any religious community in Ladakh, and the "zhung-lu" folk songs. But it would be useful if somebody with more knowledge described those traditions.

Another inaccuracy: "The absence of a caste system." Whoa! There is indeed a caste system, and because of discrimination, Ladakh stands to lose its music and festival traditions! In Saspol, Nyemo, Skyurbuchan, and more villages, the Ladakhi New Year festivities that used to happen, unique in each village (certain dances, historical re-enactments, ice-water bathing, masked clowns, etc) have been dropped because musicians have left the village to escape caste discrimination, and the traditional activities require certain music. Now those villages have youth dance parties with recorded pop music instead.

Also,please be careful about using the present tense in reference to past practices. E.g., "Archery is a popular sport in Ladakh." Yes, many villages still have archery festivals (though again those are dying out because the necessary musicians are fed up with discrimination). But much more than archery, cricket is played by virtually every boy and some girls, and in World Cup year, football. In winter everyone is crazy about ice hockey although due to lack of skates, most don't get a chance to play. I don't mean these should be mentioned in the article: it's just an example of misuse of the present tense. BeckyLadakh 12:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor correction

I've changed references to Sinkiang in China, to Xinjiang. China changed the English transliteration itself on switching to it's own Pin Yin transliteration system of Chinese script to Latin script. Beefy_SAFC 18.37:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is ungood

Aside from capitalization and typographical errors, the unsourced POV paragraph, born of controversy, quoted below is of poor quality for any noteworthy article, and certainly for an article imminently scheduled for the main page. Alas, I am insufficiently knowledgeable on the subject to determine what part of the paragraph's content, if any, is accurate and should remain in a rewrite.

The Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) often takes out protests and forces the entire Leh Bazaar to close down when a Buddhist girl marries a Muslim man. This is because muslims routinely kidnap Ladakhi women, often into polygamous marriages and because the Ladakhis fear absorption into the dominant muslim culture. Furthermore, lucrative trading positions withion buddhist communities are held by muslims, enabling them to marry buddhist women from poorer backgrounds. Marriage between muslim women and buddhist men is unheard of due to the restrictions that the muslim culture places on muslim women.

Should a wise soul successfully edit the section, I must also note I am not a big fan of the preceding paragraph's lead sentence A caste system exists in Buddhist Ladakh, wherein three groups, the Mons who play traditional music, the Garas who are blacksmiths, and the Bedas, who also play traditional music and are believed to have come in recent generations from Spiti area, are considered low caste by the middle (farmer) caste and the upper caste (former aristocracy)., though for more stylistic reasons. -- Michael Devore (talk) 15:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The whole thing was unreferenced and is removed. Thanks for pointing it out. deeptrivia (talk) 03:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please settle

Hello. Sorry for bothering you but since this article is of FA status and featured on the main page, I would like to suggest to fix this one:

Rice was previously a luxury in the Ladakhi diet, but, subsidised by the government, has now become a cheap staple.[citation needed]

Thank you. --βritandβeyonce ^{(talk•contribs)} 05:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, deeptrivia (talk) 06:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

no industries here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.134.201.40 (talk) 12:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] featured article? You have to be kidding!

This article is full of unexplained material, unwikilinked terms and strange English. For example, what is the meaning of:

"There is one airport in Leh, from which there are multiple daily flights to Delhi on Jet Airways, Air Deccan, and Indian, and weekly flights to Srinagar and Jammu."

--Filll (talk) 20:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)