Talk:Lachin

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Contents

[edit] Category

In the spirit of WP:NPOV, we should include both categories. If you see Tiraspol for example, you will notice that in addition to having Category:Transnistria, it also has Category:Cities in Moldova. De facto (in reality), Tiraspol is not part of Moldova. However, de jure (according to international recognition), it is. Same applies for Lachin/Berdzor. Khoikhoi 11:41, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with that. ROOB323 11:43, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Lachin is part of Nagorno-Karabakh neither de facto nor de jure, no more than Iraq is part of the United States. --Golbez 12:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map

Does anybody have any good and clear map for the Lachin town. I thought it would be good idea to have a map showing where Lachin is located at. ROOB323 04:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Status of Lachin. de facto part of the NKR de jure part of Azerbaijan

I have had some concerns expressed over this] edit. Note that we have split the Nagorno-Karabakh article so when we talk about land that is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic we should include the NKR & Armenia's position at the negiotiations. This position has been that Azerbaijan can get back 5 out of the 7 former Rayons but Nagorno-Karabakh keeps the Lachin (Kashatagh) and the Kelbajar (Karvajar) rayons. Note also that the NKR includes census data from the Kashtagh province which includes the town of Lachin (Berdzor). Hence we need to express that Lachin is de facto part of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Lachin is not even de facto part of the NKR, as they have not claimed it. At most, it is occupied territory, just like Iraq is of the United States, and no one has seriously said that Iraq is part of the United States. The negotiations may thus far require that NK/Armenia keep Lachin, but at present they have made no official claim or annexation of the land. The borders of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, as laid out by the breakaway government, specifically include only the 5 districts plus Shahumian. Lachin is considered by all parties to be presently part of Azerbaijan. That they want that status changed in the future does not change its present status. --Golbez (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I was asked to add the Armenian language name to the article, but I see that Golbez removed it back in February. What do Golbez and others think about this? And how did this anon "contribution" went unnoticed?VartanM (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome to fix the anon; I cannot be everywhere at every moment. As for the Armenian name, note that it basically said it was in the "rayon of Kashatagh", which is false. The name of the rayon is Lachin; if you want to say "also known by the local population as Kashatagh" that's fine, but the rayons are an official division of Azerbaijan that cannot be changed by another population. The city is a different matter; cities can and do easily be renamed. But the divisions of Azerbaijan are handled on the national level, and the land has not been annexed by Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh. If it was, you could say "in the NK division of Kashatagh" but that's not the case. The only second-level political entity that Lachin exists in is the (Armenian-occupied/controlled) Azeri rayon of Lachin. You can mention the local name for it if you like, but the primary political divisions of Azerbaijan are dictated by Baku and no one else.
Long story short - it would be odd to have an occupied/foreign controlled area change its designation in the national scheme of Azerbaijan, with Azerbaijan having no input whatsoever. Which is why I think we say on the Stepanakert that it is officially Khankendi in the Azeri subdivisions. It's not "the Azeri sahar of Stepanakert", that would again be false. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Have a look at the map at the official site of the Nagorno-Karabakh republic. I can't read Armenian but it is clear that they are not distinguishing (hence claiming) all the territory under their control as well as certain parts that are currently under control of Azerbaijan. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 23:51, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
That's a map showing the official Line of Control; note it includes far more than Lachin and Kalbajar. Perhaps this is how they would like the NKR to eventually be, but this is not how the NKR is now. The NKR has not officially claimed nor annexed land beyond its original districts that I know of; you'll need more than a map to source anything else. --Golbez (talk) 00:22, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
What does it matter if "NKR" includes Lachin in its borders or not? Such a state does not exist de-jure, has no recognition whatsoever, and you cannot find it on any world map. The only legal owner of the region is Azerbaijan, and we should use only the Azerbaijani divisions. Note that international community considers Lachin and other rayons controlled by separatists the occupied territories. Grandmaster (talk) 08:15, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Not helpful, GM. It's not like we haven't heard that argument over and over again, but I think the people actually in Lachin would disagree that they do not exist. Let's talk about the actual subject of discussion rather than falling back on your old tired routine? --Golbez (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
The current Lachin is a town in Azerbaijan is unacceptable. We are not writing fantasypedia. I have nothing against addition of the information that its de-jure part of Azerbaijan, but it can not be in the lead as it is now. The lead should reflect current status of the town and not be misleading. VartanM (talk) 19:56, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
But... it is in Azerbaijan. It's in land occupied/controlled by Armenia/NKR, but it is claimed nor annexed by neither; it is part of Azerbaijan, universally acknowledged, just as Basra was always part of Iraq and Paris was part of France in the early 1940s. If you want it changed, you will have to show me a source specifically saying the political (not physical) ownership of Lachin has changed. Anything less is original research. --Golbez (talk) 22:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Golbez, de-jure non-existence does not mean that someone or something does not exist in real life, it means that he/it does not exist as a legal person/entity. And NKR does not exist in legal terms, it has no recognition, no membership in any organizations, and legitimacy of its government is rejected by the international community. I think it is a valid argument which we should bear in mind when discussing "NKR". Grandmaster (talk) 09:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
If only what you said had any bearing whatsoever on the discussion thread we're in. --Golbez (talk) 19:04, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Azerbaijani name goes first, as Azerbaijani is the official language in Azerbaijan and Lachin is part of it. That's the way it is done in any other articles about regions and towns. Grandmaster (talk) 06:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Nope. In fact, why include the Azerbaijani name at all? It's not any different so it's irrelevant.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


It is Azerbaijani spelling of the region that matters. Since it is also a name of the region with Azerbaijani origin, not Armenian (like Berdzor), it matters even more. Lachin and Laçın are different and the latter should come first according to common sense. In the opposite Armenian spelling should not be there, since the Armenian side hardly ever uses this name to call/mean this region. --Aynabend (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with that; Lachin is not quite the same as Stepanakert, and it's not claimed or annexed by anyone but Azerbaijan so that name should go first. That there is a substantial Armenian population there is the reason why we then also include Armenian. --Golbez (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the line that said Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh renamed the region. Armenia cannot rename the territory of the neighboring state, neither can unrecognized local authorities. So I used more neutral wording. Grandmaster (talk) 14:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I deleted some obviously uncorrect unsourced "info" on currect Azerbaijani and Kurdish popualetion added by an IP. Also some expanding and checking of the historical part is needed. The Kurdishmedia is not a reliable source for this controversional topic.Andranikpasha (talk) 15:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The same POV here, stating that Lachin, which does not officially belong to either Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, is under control of "Nagorno-Karabakh" is not neutral. Since in either case, those are Armenian forces occupying the district, it's better to just state so, that it's under control of Armenian forces. Atabek (talk) 13:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC) It does not officially belong to either Armenia or Nagorno-Karabakh region of Azerbaijan, it is an official part and corridor of Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. Andranikpasha (talk) 18:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

What?? Lachin is a rayon of Azerbaijan occupied by Armenian forces as a corridor to Karabakh? Which source says that it's "official part of NKR", please, substantiate your POV with reference or otherwise, remove your original research. Atabek (talk) 05:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I added that "NKR" is not internationally recognized, this fact is worth mentioning, since the status of NK has 2 aspects: de facto and de jure. Mentioning one entails mentioning the other. Grandmaster (talk) 10:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the two editors who have removed Grandmaster's addition. It is unfortunate that some editors whose main aim here is to promote reproduce Azeri propaganda seem to want Wikipedia articles to be mirror-like reflections of Azerbaijan press releases, whose writers are obliged to use such phrases. There is no need for the Azeri stock phrase "not internationally recognised" to always appear whenever the words Nagorno Karabakh Republic are mentioned. Meowy 16:20, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
First, mind WP:AGF. Accusing other editors of "promoting Azeri propaganda" is not acceptable, comment on content, and not the contributor. Second, the IP is banned User:Azad chai, who has been stalking me for quite some time. Check his contribs, they are nothing but vandalism and edit warring. And third, what's wrong with adding factually accurate info about so called "NKR" having no international recognition? Like it or not, it is a fact that reader needs to be aware of without having to check the main article. Grandmaster (talk) 18:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Would you prefer "reproduce" to "promote"? As for following who is banned and who is not and who is alleged to be such and such a person's sockpuppet, I'm happy to say such wikkifaggotry doesn't interest me, and I hope I look at content and judge it based on its quality rather than judge it based on who wrote it. Meowy 02:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't prefer any personal comments. Keep them to yourself, you already have a number of incivility blocks, so you should be aware of consequences of such comments. As for banned users, enforcement of wiki policies should be everyone's concern. Banned users are not allowed to contribute, and especially engage in edit warring and harassment. Grandmaster (talk) 05:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, since there is preference to "de-facto independent" instead of "unrecognized", I added a bit more clarification on "de jure" being part of Azerbaijan. Atabek (talk) 18:26, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The article already states, clearly and succinctly, in the very first sentence, that Lachin "is a town in Azerbaijan". Meowy 02:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Banned user Azad chai deleted Azeri name, as usual, which I restored. Grandmaster (talk) 08:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, Karapetyan is not a reliable source. Please cite third party sources. Grandmaster (talk) 05:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Please point to concrete examples in Karapetyan's book so we may reconsider his reliability as a source. An interview is simply an interview; just because he expresses a certain viewpoint does not mean automatically mean that he is unreliable. Let's be logical here.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 00:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

See my response here [1] and please cite third party sources. Karapetyan is a person, who denies the right of Azerbaijani people to live in Lachin. How could such a person be a reliable source? A quote from de Waal's book, check the words of Karapetyan:
What claims does history have on the present? In what sense can Kelbajar be called "Armenian," when no Armenian had lived there for almost a hundred years? I said that I could not accept that Kelbajar was "liberated" territory, when all of its fifty thousand or so Azerbaijani or Kurdish inhabitants had been expelled. Surely, I argued, these people had the right to live in the homes in which they were born. But for Samvel, the past eclipsed the present: those people were "Turks" and interlopers. When he used to travel on buses in Azerbaijan, he would always end up losing his seat: "Every Turk or Azerbaijani asks you for a little land and says, 'Just give me a little land to live in!' But in a few years you end up with a tiny piece of land and he gets the lot".
Since when racist authors like Karapetyan are considered reliable here? If what he says about the ancient name is true, you should have no problem finding a third party source saying the same. There are many reputable international scholars who worked in this field, so it should not be problem, if such a name indeed existed and is not Karapetyan's invention. Grandmaster (talk) 09:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I second. For controversial issues we should use neutral sources.--Dacy69 (talk) 20:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

There is bad-faith at work in Grandmaster's removal of clearly factually-correct information. One need only look at any 19th century map to see that the old name of Lachin was Ardalar (or spellings similar to Ardalar: for example it is spelt "Abdalyar" on Lynch's 1901 "Map of Armenia and Adjacent Countries". Did Grandmaster not bother to check such maps? Meowy 20:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

BTW, in this article there need to be a mention of, and a link to, the entry for the town of Lachin. Does anyone know if the Lachin rayon was given that name because of the name of the town of Lachin, or was the settlement renamed Lachin because that was what the rayon was named? And what does the word "Lachin" mean?
Once again, Karapetyan is not third party source and should be removed. And Meowy, if you have any maps that cannot be found in modern publication, maybe you could upload scans so that we could check your claims? As for the meaning of the name of the city, Lachin means hawk in Azerbaijani. Grandmaster (talk) 04:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Means peregrine falcon in Turkish. Meowy 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lynch_map_extract.jpg - use the position of Shusha and Tatev to orient yourself (most of the other place names have changed). Meowy 19:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The map is not needed, interpretation of maps is OR. But I found a Russian source on Abdallar: [2] It's Russian toponimical dictionary. It says that until 1923 Lachin was a village by the name of Abdallar, after the Turkic tribe of abdaly that lived there. In 1923 it was made a town, and in 1926 renamed to Lachin. So if no one objects this source can be used in the article as a reference. Grandmaster (talk) 05:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
But Lynch's map is interesting, because it shows that at that time all of the geographic names in the region were Turkic. Thanks for uploading, the info is interesting. Grandmaster (talk) 05:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
First you ask to see the map (with the implication that I might be lying about the map's contents), then, when you do see it, you say it "is not needed". Maps are not "interpreted", they are "read", just like any printed source is "read". Meowy 19:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
PS, I've not added copyright info to the map extract whan I uploaded it, so it will be erased by Wikipedia soon. This was intentional, since the map is not going to be linked to any Wikipedia article and it was only uploaded so that Grandmaster could see it. Meowy 19:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I was interested in the map, but maps are normally not used as references. We can use them in the discussions though. Text sources are preferable, because people can read the maps differently, while it is a lot less complicated with texts. In any case, I found a text source for the former name, which can be used. And Aynabend was right in removing the mention of the name Ardalar, because we have not reached consensus about the sources at the time. Now we have, so it is ok to add Ardalar, but Karapetian is still no good and should be removed. I find it very strange that you readded it after so much discussion and after I provided a better source. Grandmaster (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
An English-language source is a preferable to a non-English language source when they are both giving the same information, especially when the non-English language source is in Cyrillic and the information just concerns a place-name. Meowy 16:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
That is in case that English source is reliable. Grandmaster (talk) 20:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Meowy, according to Azeri authors reflecting on historical truth, entire present-day Armenia is essentially ethnically cleansed and Armenian settled land of Azeris. The fact is also confirmed by Bournoutian by the way. I would guess that you will claim such opinion as not neutral. Well, then I don't see how the reference of Karapetyan can at all qualify on this page. Please, provide neutral authors for future reference. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

As explained in another entry, I will not wasting time responding to this sort of childish stuff. The cited book is a completely acceptable source. An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth" - if he/she were, the author would pretty quickly be languishing in an Azerbaijani prison. An Azeri author's "historical truth" might as well be that all Armenians actually came from outer space sometime in the 19th century, exterminating millions of good, honest, and always completely peacefull Azeri Turks who had been living everywhere in the Caucasus since time immemorial - and anything anyone produces contrarary to that is all down to Photoshop, money, and Armenian plots. Meowy 17:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
So according to you wikipedia rules are "childish stuff"? I beg to differ. You were explained in much detail why Karapetian is no good. And I like how you make all Azerbaijani sources unreliable, while at the same time using an Armenian chauvinist as a source. Very convenient, isn't it? Just pick the sources that suit you and discard those that do not. But it does not work like that here. Azerbaijani sources are as good as Armenian ones, but per wiki rules we should give preference to third party ones. So please come up with something a lot better than Karapetian, i.e. a source that has no conflict of interest in this issue. Grandmaster (talk) 19:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Btw, the claims like "An "Azeri author" is not capable of reflecting on "historical truth"" are quite racist, don't you think so? Grandmaster (talk) 19:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it's legitimate criticism and an obvious allusion to Azerbaijani historians' penchant for removing any mention of "Armenians" prior to the early nineteenth century. How can a historian be taken seriously if they claim that a monument in Martakert, dedicated to the completion of the Russian conquest of the Caucasus, is in fact a dedication to the Armenian "settlement" in Karabakh? Or, pray tell, what do other historians make of claims that Armenians stole the Caucasian Albanians' culture and alphabet?

The burden of proof comes down to you proving Karapetian's work as unreliable which you, as of yet, have failed to do so. You can cite an interview only so many times and interpret it in so many ways, but that still gets you nowhere. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 21:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've shown that the source is not reliable, and I pointed you to the rules that require using third party sources. So the burden of proof is on you, if whatever Karapetian claims is true, you should have no problem citing neutral sources. And I can cite many sources about how Armenian historians manipulated historical sources for political purposes, including those about Caucasian Albania. Hewsen criticizes certain prominent Armenian scholar Mnatsakanian, who tried to prove that Albania never ever existed. There are many more examples, I can cite reliable sources about that. So Armenian scholars are as good as Azerbaijani scholars are, and it is better to stick to third party ones. So I'm still expecting you to provide a decent source to support your claims. Grandmaster (talk) 04:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

In order to distinct Yezidi Kurds in neighbouring Armenia, it needs to mentioned that deported Kurds were Muslim. Moreover, renaming the region sounds too official, it is better to keep it this way. On separate account, some historical data about the previous name(s) of the region may be added here. For example in the 18th century, the region's name goes as "Keshtak". --Aynabend (talk) 06:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Aynabend's "few additions and changes" actually consisted of the removal of a section of fully referenced material - all done without any explanation here (not that there could be a legitimate reason for removing the information that the settlement's previous name was Ardalar). Also, this article is about the settlement of Lachin, and not Lachin region. There is probably a case for merging them, but for now the info needs to be kept separate. Meowy 19:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha just deleted the info from the article claiming that Azerbaijani source is not reliable. How come Karapetian is reliable, and Azadliq is not? Grandmaster (talk) 12:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

An Azerbaijani source is used to prove something dubious, so its surely not reliable. And Karapetian is just one of the sources (used not by me) saying something factual, isnt it? So what's the problem? Are you protesting well-known historian Karapetian just for his Yan, or maybe the name he cite is radically pro-Armenian:)? Andranikpasha (talk) 13:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
And the Azerbaijani source used among with Karapetian, is in Azerbaijani language... Did you forget about this source when wrote about Karapetian? Azerbaijani source cant be checked so its an unreliable source per Wiki rules and will be deleted. Andranikpasha (talk) 14:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed "Abdallar" to "Abdalyar" - the three sources give different spellings for the former name of Lachin. Given that the 1901 source dates from the time it was called Abdalyar, it is the more likely one to be correct, I think. Meowy 22:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a bunch of anon IPs edit warring on Lachin related articles. I suspect they are connected to a certain registered user. If the anonymous user really wants to get his edits included, the best way is discussion, and not edit warring. --Grandmaster (talk) 11:40, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Anons generally don't discuss - it's their nature. However, comparing the last edit I made, with the current edit - which is one by the anonymous editor, I don't see much to argue about. It is obvious that the pre-war population of Lachin region is much greater than its current population. Infoboxes are meant to give a concise overview of the topic, so I think it should be its current population that is inserted there, if it is known with confidence, and not the pre-war one. Or alternatively, both the current and the pre-war one should be given. The "history" section seems well sourced but not as well written as it could be, and it should be incorporated into the rest of the text - the history of Lachin didn't begin in 1992. The erased "During the occupation of Lachin, May 18, 1992....." section was right to be erased. It was propagandistic in tone and content (e.g., wording like "During the occupation" implies that those 333 people were killed after its capture), and is deceptive in its source (it is not a RFE/RL report - and these sort of claims need third-party sources). Maybe the two entries for Lachin town and Lachin rayon should be merged, given the limited amount of material and the fact that much of the material seems to overlap? Meowy 19:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Red Kurdistan"

I think that part of the entry needs to have a clearer and more accurate account, especially since it is an interesting bit of history. The quote "the small Kurdish population of Azerbaijan was given "an ethnic territory in the Lachin Corridor between Nagorno Karabakh and Armenia" is factually wrong. The Kurdistan Uyezid covered a far greater area than just the "Lachin Corridor", it extended into Kalbajar. How much into Kalbajar I don't personally know, but there must be sources and maps about somewhere. For example, Karapetian mentions a February 1923 decision of the Transcaucasian Central Executive Committee to take territory from Armenia and give it to Kurdistan district. The bit of land that was taken is now part of Kalbajar region (it's the bit of terrirory that sticks out into Armenia). So some of the onetime Kurdistan Uyezid was certainly in Kalbajar. "Lachin Corridor" has a specific meaning, namely the road linking Nagorno-Karabagh with Armenia, and the fact that the quote has it capitalised makes it certain that its author was referring to that specific bit of land. So I am removing that quote because of its inaccuracy - the Kurdistan Uyezid did not consist of just the Lachin Corridor. Meowy 20:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)