Talk:LACMTA Expo Line

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Contents

[edit] Funding

The Expo Line still has problems with funding, so it's still in design only. -- Pelladon 03:55, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

UPDATE 2: Metro secures additional $315 million in state funding, $523 million so far. Note: this is for Phase 1 funding only (from Metro Center to Culver City). Phase 2 (to Santa Monica) is not viable yet.
Source: mta.com press release —Pelladon 03:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Color

Has the color of this line been confirmed?? Georgia guy 03:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Not officially, but it will by the end of the month [July 2006]. Donald Hosek
The Metro (Los Angeles County Metropolitan Transportation Authority) board officially named the line "Metro Expo Line" on August 24, 2006. They haven't designated a color for the maps yet. Esirgen 02:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move??

Any opinions about moving this page to LACMTA Aqua Line?? Georgia guy 00:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

This was just a staff recommendation and has not been formally approved by the EMLCA board. When they do we will change the name. Calwatch 07:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I like "Expo Line" better than "Aqua Line". Sounds better to me. --Pelladon 22:44, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Please explain. I always prefer colors over random names for transport lines because colors are always unambiguous and sensible. Non-color names of lines are sometimes misnomers (check out Line 5 Blue (Montreal Metro). Georgia guy 22:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
To me, MTA (and/or the city) is getting carried away with the "colors". The mayor hinted about the "Purple" line which is the existing Red line at Wilshire. The use of colors to tag various proposed rail lines makes for a convenient pr ploy (like the "Aqua" line publicity stunt). --Pelladon 17:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
When the LACMTA officially changes the name to the Aqua Line (as opposed to the staff recommendation) then we will change the name. User opinions are irrelevant here, although if you actually care about the title I suggest you contact your MTA board member. Calwatch 03:18, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
The change is due by the end of the month. Aqua seems likely. --Donald Hosek 08:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I laughed. The LA Times recently ran an editorial blasting the MTA on its long-standing fot-dragging on what to rename this line. Hbdragon88 21:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technology?

What technology will be used for this line? Please don't tell me it's going to be another dinky at-tram like the Blue Line? Jpatokal 17:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes it will be primarily at-grade like the Blue Line. (Damienwg (talk) 13:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Pictures

Do these have to be centered? It looks nothing like other Wikipedia articles now. (Phattonez 23:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC))

I had right aligned the pictures, but Esirgen moved them back to center for some unknown reason and did not explain his actions here. He obviously is not going to let us make any changes for the better. (Phattonez 14:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC))
These thumbnails are 600 px wide; therefore, it doesn't make sense to align them left or right. When you aligned them to the right, the continuity of the text got lost and the placement of the pictures with respect to the text became incorrect. I think they look much better this way. The only way they could be placed right is if you make the thumbnails half the size, but since these pictures contain so much detail, I don't think it makes sense. There are many other Wikipedia pages with large thumbnails aligned in the center—just look around.
I appreciate your inclusion of the "Current status" though.
Esirgen 06:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Captions

I have no problem with the content of the captions in terms of the information expressed. I just don't find it at all appropriate to have a paragraph-long caption, when the information should go either (1) on the image page, or (2) in the text near the image. The information isn't exactly "critical" as it was described before, at least not "critically" located in the caption. Please compare to other Wikipedia articles. Trust me, I love the future Expo Line as much as the next transit freak, and that's exactly why I think the page should look more professional. --SameerKhan 06:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

A caption could be a word, a few words, a complete sentence, or a few sentences, or a small paragraph. The caption of a picture is as important as the picture itself in that it describes the picture. Show me one place in the Wikipedia style manual that says what should be the maximum length of a caption.
I spent quite a bit time making those three pictures and I know that their captions are critical descriptions of them. When you deleted their captions, you pretty much killed those pictures—it was almost like vandalism.
I understand that you are a Ph.D. student in linguistics at UCLA, and when you write scientific papers, I am guessing that you don't use pictures, hence captions, much. Coming from a different background myself, I am very familar with captions and pictures.
Although the caption of my third picture also looks a little bit long to me as well; I will think about it when I have time. The other two captions are two and three sentences, respectively. The nice thing about Wikipedia is that it is free form—what really matters is the content itself but not much the style and format.
Esirgen 16:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
--Your caption for the picture can just go inside the article. The caption is supposed to be a short reference. (Phattonez 00:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC))
I agree with Phattonez. The information in the caption belongs in the article, not the caption. I don't mean to "kill" your pictures, and I am not interested in vandalizing this page. I know I am a linguist, but my passion is in urban transportation, so I want this page to look as professional as the articles on other parts of the Metro Network and other transportation systems. Also, please don't make personal assumptions. As a phonetician, much of my dissertation and other papers are made up of tables, charts, and most importantly, images of spectrograms, waveforms, and (more recently with my work in intonation) pitch contours, and I have been told by many reviewers that captions are meant to be short, and details are meant to be in the text. Long captions detract from the point, rather than enhance them. --SameerKhan 07:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Community’s perspective

The residents of the community along the Expo Right of Way have often been stereotyped by non-resident advocates of the extension as unreasonable and blind in their opposition to the proposed route. Whereas in fact, there are real concerns about safety, noise, traffic, and ridership and the MTA's willingness to adequately address these concerns.

Safety

The alignment would pass through a suburban single family home neighborhood - the train in some places would be within 50 feet of homes. This brings up concerns about safety (and noise). Although there is a natural ditch behind Palms Park that which allows for a grade separated parkway, once the right of way reaches Overland Avenue, it is at street level and within 50-100 feet of homes and the playground of a local elementary school. Possible mitigation would involve building the light rail above or below grade. However, the MTA has demonstrated resistance to these options because they are more costly than simply building at street level.

What the MTA has withheld from residents during community scoping meetings is its abhorrent safety record for at grade railways. An LA Times article by Douglas P. Shut dated 2/22/2000 [1] featured an interview with Yvonne Braithwaite Burke, County Supervisor and then head of the MTA, in which she expressed anxiety about crossing the Blue Line Tracks. As of 2000, there has been 53 deaths attributed to the Blue Line. In light of this danger, the MTA explored a proposal to rebuild the Blue Line to put it below grade. The cost for such a project once the the rail line has been built was estimated at 1.6 billion - much too high to make it feasible. Burke has been quoted as saying that the best chance for addressing safety concerns is at the construction phase. Putting a light rail below ground during construction may be more expensive than at street level. However, it will be much more cost-effective to make a decision to invest in a safe infrastructure at the onset. Stuck with an unsafe at grade railway, the MTA's response has been to develop a safety education program for children and seniors. This involves a component about speed and stopping distance which would be a challenging concept to teach young children who live and walk to school along the right of way [2]. Safety education, alone, is an unacceptable form of mitigation for a route along which hundreds of children as young as 5 years of age pass on their way to school.

Environmental Impact (Noise and Traffic)

Although the MTA holds up the Pasadena Gold Line as its success in integrating an at grade light rail into a residential neighborhood, there has been much concern about the noise. So much so that even transit advocates propose that the at grade Gold Line be rebuilt into a below grade line [3]. Again, the cost of doing this post construction is prohibitive. Moreover, while the at-grade rail way will increase access from the Eastside of town to the Westside, the crossings along major streets will disrupt the flow of already congested north-south traffic along Overland Ave and Westwood Blvd.

Safety, noise, and traffic are serious considerations. The Community supports smart public transit. The MTA has not adequately addressed these concerns in building already existing Metro lines. They appear poised to repeat past mistakes. A light rail is a long term investment in the future of our city. A poorly designed route would not only impact upon ridership (and therefore alleviation of traffic congestion) but would also bring unfair negative impact upon the surrounding neighborhoods. No neighborhood, regardless of their demographic, should have bear the unburden of poor planning.

Cheviotla 21:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed some of the more tendentious material making assertions about Cheviot Hills without really giving both sides. The links that were cited are now invalid. Nothing major is lost. This entire article is way too long and detailed for an encyclopedia, anyway. GeorgeLouis 00:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I live near Arlington about 1/2 mile from the track. What kind of impact can I expect? Is it more negative than positive? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.247.23.76 (talk) 22:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Because of the proximity to the Expo Line, rents and housing prices will go up in your neighborhood once the line is built. So, it depends on whether you rent or own a house. Esirgen (talk) 00:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
There are four-quad gates proposed at Arlington/Exposition, which will be down some 38% of the time during peak hours during rush hour. So you can expect a severe traffic impact on Arlington, and with the closure of 2nd Ave and 3rd Ave all the cut-through traffic diverted to the street. You'll also hear the train horns 960 times every weekday (240 trains X 4 horns per train). Damienwg (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Grade separation and other issues

Thanks to CheviotLA for helping keep the page on topic. We tried to incorporate the key facts from the section back into the article. At the same time we questioned some of the other opinions expressed about the homeowners association.

One issue that is interesting is the idea that because the rail has gone at grade in other less affluent neighborhoods, it would be discriminatory to do anything different in Cheviot/Rancho Park. It certainly would have that appearance. But if you look at the problems created by running at grade, it doesnt make sense to do that in any neighborhood. The argument is like saying that just because you did something badly once - you need to do it just as badly for everyone else just to be fair. I think it is time to stop the MTA from building badly designed rail. If it takes the rich neighborhoods to get the MTA to change its ways, it will be better for everyone in the future. The Expo is not the last rail to be built in the city. Bruabf 06:50, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Venice/Sepulveda Boulevards diversion

This section is almost completely negative about the Venice/Sepulveda route. I was tempted to put an {{unbalanced}} tag on it but decided to discuss it first. I don't know anything about this route or what its advantages are, but surely there are some. Maybe someone can fill in the gaps and create a more balanced account. Didnt the MTA actually select this route at one point? We need to fill in the history. Bruabf 05:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Bruabf is correct; the section is unbalanced: Somebody is using Wikipedia to flog his or her personal opinion. Neither this nor any other part of the line west of Culver City has been studied in great detail. I simply removed what is speculation and left what we know (which isn't much). Sincerely, GeorgeLouis 00:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
So much of the article seems to be unbalanced; both regarding the Venice/Sepulveda alignment issue as well as regarding grade-separation issues. I would agree that an "unbalanced" or "neutrality disputed" (does that exist?) tag should be added to both of these sections. In short, I'd like to see a much more concise article about the Expo Line; and article that's more general in scope. Perhaps concerns for and against elements of the line could be listed in a bulleted fashion in a special "Support and Opposition" section of the article. --Alika (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Alika, you are right that the article is a little bit on the long side but with so much mindless opposition taking place, let's try to keep it as comprehensive and representative of the facts as possible so that the Expo Line will get built right. The future of the light-rail network in Los Angeles is also at stake. In the past there have been numerous neutrality etc. tags added and once the specific concerns were addressed, they were removed. Esirgen (talk) 22:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
If that's statement by Friends 4 Expo member Gohkan Esirgen is not a clear indication of the bias that is in play in this article I don't know what is. (Damienwg (talk) 01:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Questionable Neutrality of Sections Advocating for Specific Routes

One issue under investigation for the Expo Extension is whether the route should go directly along the alignment or go from the end of Phase I extension in Culver City down Venice and up North on Sepulveda. Environmental impact (noise, safety) and ridership are among the key factors being considered in an Environmental Impact Report.

In reading the sections dealing with these two options, one gets the sense that the neutrality and encyclopedic nature of Wikipedia is being compromised. I have tried to add some facts to balance out the perspectives but repeatedly find that these facts have been deleted rather than talked (Cheviotla - I sent you a message through talk. Please check and respond. If you haven't received it, I can send it again). The route options is a contentious local political issue. Perhaps too "hot" for Wikipedia. However, it seems that there are facts out there that should be included in this page to balance out the perspective.

Any reactions or suggestions for dealing with an ongoing political issue such as the Expo Line Phase II extension?

Kerryla 04:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC) Kerryla

Agreed. Much of this article reads more as an advocacy piece for a certain alignment or grade-separation strategy. I, too, made an edit in an attempt to preserve noted concerns while removing judgment as to whether the concerns were valid. I'm thinking this article needs either some large-scale changes or one of those "neutrality disputed" tags. How does one initiate the latter? --Alika (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute
(Damienwg (talk) 01:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Line Colors

Assuming the Downtown Connector is ever built....

I'd like to see phase one of the Gold Line renamed "Blue Line" as was originally planned. We would finally have a single Blue Line running from Long Beach to Pasadena (and beyond?).

The Expo Line should be connected to the East L.A. Gold Line extension and should retain the Gold Line name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.35.112 (talk) 08:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Since naming is based on rail lines, not the tracks themselves, you really wouldn't have to rename the Gold Line, per se. Rather, the Pasadena - Downtown LA - Long Beach line could be called the Blue Line and the Pasadena - Downtown LA - East LA line could be called the Gold Line. Come to think of it, a new East LA - Downtown LA - Long Beach line could be created too! As long as the equipment is compatible trains could run between all three endpoints. The Expo Line could even be brought into the fray. Oh well; pie in the sky. --Alika (talk) 20:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the natural way to name/color/number the lines is by the destination. See the figure on the right. Therefore, the colors can remain as they are. Esirgen (talk) 20:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-light-rail campaign by Damien Goodmon

This section seems like a personal attack on Goodmon - and since there is not a pro Goodmon section, this opposition seems unnecessary. If there is something relevant here maybe it can get reworded in some appropriate way. Bruabf (talk) 22:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


While there has been a considerable public reaction to the proposed at-grade crossing at Farmdale Ave, much of this reaction is a result of a highly polarized campaign by the self-acclaimed transit advocate Damien Goodmon [4]. Damien Goodmon doesn't believe that light-rail is an efficient form of public transportation and, as a result, he has made the utmost effort to promote the Expo Line as being ugly, inefficient, and dangerous. His efforts have focused on having the line built as a subway or, if not possible, otherwise grade-separated as an elevated line.

In order to accomplish his goal, Damien Goodmon has chosen to accuse the Expo Authority of racism. He has claimed that the Phase 2 (future western) segment of the line would be built grade-separated, unlike Phase 1; therefore, the Expo Line is racially discriminating against African-Americans. Although his claims are unsupported, his misleading campaign has gained popularity and, after thousands of fliers and a Web site [5], he managed to gather a large African-American crowd at the latest California Public Utilities Commission hearing [6].

Other opposition groups such as Expo Communities United (headed by Mark Jolles and Clint Simmons of Mid-City) [7] and Neighbors for Smart Rail (headed by Terri Tippit of the Westside Neighborhood Council [8], Michael Eveloff of Tract 7260 [9], Colleen Mason Heller and Kevin Hughes of the Cheviot Hills Homeowners' Association [10], and Loren Kosmont of the Westwood Gardens Civic Association [11]) [12] have joined Damien Goodmon in protesting grade-separation and other issues.

Professor Najmedin Meshkati of USC [13], a strong critic of the Expo Line [14], has recently been pointed out to live in the Cheviot Hills area, within half a mile of the Exposition railroad right-of-way [15], which questioned the motivation and damaged the credibility of his research.


It was a personal attack, and inaccurate characterization. But since the authors and editors of the article are all Friends 4 Expo and Light Rail for Cheviot members, I'm not surprised. (Damienwg (talk) 00:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Conflict-of-interest discussion between Cheviotla and Damien Goodmon

[edit] Original post by Cheviotla: conflict-of-interest edits by FixExpo (Damien Goodmon)

  • Group FixExpo [16], created and headed by Damien Goodmon, is currently in a legal battle with the Expo Construction Authority [17], trying to stop the construction of the line (see, e.g., one of his latest legal filings [18], among the numerous).
  • It is highly unethical for FixExpo to make edits on the LACMTA Expo Line article, given its direct legal interest and lawsuit against the Expo Construction Authority, who is constructing the light-rail line.

It is highly unethical for any organization to make edits on Wikipedia on its own behalf (such as Microsoft editing articles on Windows).

It is not appropriate to use Wikipedia as a discussion board and use such language to pass one's ideas, opinions, or views.

Moreover, there were specific edits by FixExpo which were entirely false, such as the statement that Overland Ave traffic count is below the Metro criteria. (Overland Ave traffic count is around 1,500, more than any Phase 1 count, and well-above the Metro criteria.)

  • Therefore, please remove any similar edits by FixExpo, which violates Wikipedia ethics. Further such edits may result in the deletion of the FixExpo account.

If you have a close connection to some of the people, places or things you have written about on Wikipedia, you may have a conflict of interest. In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. If you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid or exercise great caution when:

  1. editing articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with;
  2. participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors;
  3. linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam);
    and you must always:
  4. avoid breaching relevant policies and guidelines, especially neutral point of view, verifiability, and autobiography.

For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have conflict of interest, please see Wikipedia:Business' FAQ. For more details about what constitutes a conflict of interest, please see Wikipedia:Conflict of Interest. Thank you.

Cheviotla (talk) 19:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First reply by Damien Goodmon: major conflicts of interest with Friends 4 Expo and Light Rail for Cheviot - this reads like an advocacy page

This is an advocacy page written by members of the citizen organizations Friends 4 Expo and Light Rail for Cheviot (cheviotla and Esirgen), representing clear conflicts of interest. They even have links to this wiki page on their advocacy literature. The entire article needs to be rewritten and FixExpo's edits (my previous account) attempted to add factual balance to the article, and still I didn't go far enough. Here are some of the changes I suggested that have been removed/specific issues that remain with this page.

1) The absence of linking to critical articles or websites to provide alternative information in the External links section. I'm trying to understand why any site devoted to Expo would not be linked in the External links section?

Previous edits added the following links but they've been removed without explanation and completely without justification:

  • Citizens' Campaign to Fix the Expo Rail Line—coalition of South Los Angeles community organizations working to build the Expo Line below grade in the South LA segment
  • Expo Communities United-coalition of four community organizations leading the battle at the CPUC; organization is part of the Fix Expo Campaign
  • Exposing the Expo-Journalism project by students at USC's Annenberg School for Communication in the Spring 2007 semester

2) Relatedly the controversy in Phase 1, that is the major source of the media attention for the line right now, is given a paragraph. Specifically, there's absolutely no mention of the Los Angeles Unified School District's motion opposing the street-level Expo Line crossings near public schools. I'm trying to understand how that's not relevant?

Here's the section on the LAUSD that was removed without explanation or justification:

After nearly a decade of staff letters from Los Angeles Unified School District (LAUSD) Office of Environmental Health and Safety and former Superintendent Roy Romer, the LAUSD Board of Education formally stated their opposition to the at-grade crossing at Dorsey and Foshay Learning Center at Western/Exposition in November 2007, through the "Keeping Kids Safe Resolution." The resolution was sponsored by School Board Member Marguerite LaMotte, who represents the area that includes many of the public schools near the Expo Line, and the longest serving member of the school board Julie Korenstein. Since the resolution was passed, LAUSD lawyers have entered the CPUC case as a formal party and added to the case record a brief overview of LAUSD's communication with Metro and the Expo Authority.

Relatedly, the Exposition Metro Line Construction Authority Board of Directors has directed staff to study grade separated options at the Farmdale/Exposition location including closing the street with a pedestrian bridge, and keeping the street open with a train overpass.

There was a section devoted to Environmental Racism that was balanced and accurate that was removed, again without explanation:

South Los Angeles community groups have been very vocal regarding the disparate design of Expo Line Phase 1 as it passes through the majority-white area in the city of Culver City, where the train operates 100% grade separated, compared to the South LA alignment from just west of Figueroa to just east of La Brea (a distance of 4 miles), where the train is planned to operate completely at-grade. The only currently proposed grade separation in South LA is at La Brea Avenue, which is an overpass. Comparatively, at Figueroa/Exposition, where USC and Exposition Park are located, that grade separation is an underpass, which cost more to construct. Underpasses produce significantly less environmental impact than overpasses. Specifically, overpasses produce much more noise, there is a blight impact, and there are privacy concerns. The groups claim the design is textbook environmental racism.

3) There are several attempts to characterize the motives and attitudes of individuals and organizations instead of simply stating their positions. To no surprise anyone that slightly differs from a completely pro-Expo party-line is portrayed as Satan. The hit piece on me (below), that has since been removed, is one of the most egregious examples, not only for the tone but inaccuracy. Others issues:

The attitude of the high-level administration of the University of Southern California (USC) toward the Expo Line has been generally negative while the attitude of students and neighbors has been positive.

If that doesn't scream bias I don't know what does. This sentence should read something like "The administration of the University of Southern California (USC) has been critical of the Expo Line, particularly USC President Steven Sample" and there should be a link to a document or report.

Additionally, the neighborhood council for the area (North Area Neighborhood Development Council) has supported the position of the other South LA organizations which is to alter the design of the line from Figueroa to La Brea. (See the downloads on the website: http://www.nandc.org/land_use.php). Support from neighborhood councils in Phase 2 communities is used to characterize support for something or other, but neighborhood councils that request alterations in Phase 1 are ignored in favor of "positive" neighbors "attitudes."

Professor Najmedin Meshkati of USC [82], a strong critic of the Expo Line [83], has recently been pointed out to live in the Cheviot Hills area, within half a mile of the Exposition railroad right-of-way [84], which raises the question about the motivation and credibility of his research.

Attempting to slander a noted professor explains the depth that these members are willing to go and in the process dirty wiki's name. Most, if not all, of the studies to date by Meshkati on the topic have been published and undergone peer review (here are just two: http://www.metrans.org/research/2005/05-13.htm and http://www.metrans.org/research/final/00-11_Final.htm) His study that is the source of the controversy isn't even linked to. Besides isn't this the wiki policy:

Editors should remove any negative material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source.

4) While Phase 2 is only in the planning stages and stations have not been finalized as stated throughout the page, phase 2 station locations are mentioned in the Station section as though they've already been determined. And to the benefit of Light Rail for Cheviot (who favor the right-of-way route) vs. the Venice-Sepulveda hump (which was the originally preferred route in 2001), all the stations are on the right-of-way route. Additional, the map at the top of the page, doesn't show the Expo Line with the two routes, just with the one on the right-of-way, which again is the position of Light rail for Cheviot.

5) The source of much of the controversy that resolves around phase 2 relates to grade separation, specifically which streets will and won't have grade separations. Without pointing to any data or report, the author states that many of the intersections will be grade separated or should be grade separated. C'mon editors:

Bagley Avenue: Since the tracks are next to a freeway overpass at this crossing, there is zero visibility coming from the freeway side of Bagley Avenue. In addition the crossing is in between two overpass inclines (National and Venice/Robertson) where the train would have little room to slow down or stop for an oncoming vehicle stuck in the gates. Therefore, this crossing seems to meet the criteria in the Metro grade-crossing policy for light-rail [26].

No component of the grade-crossing policy mentions this as a basis - and the lone basis at that - for grade separation.

Metro staff has indicated that there would very likely be grade separation at Overland Ave; although, they have declined to commit to this before they have done the draft environmental study.

There's no link or basis for this conclusion. In fact, the threshold for grade separation is 1100 vehicles per lane (see the grade crossing policy), and per the Friends 4 Expo own traffic count Overland only reaches 952 vehicles per lane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgGmEFDTfrM) meaning it does not exceed the threshold.

Westwood Boulevard: Westwood Boulevard is also a major arterial helping Westwood, Century City, and Rancho Park connect to the Santa Monica Freeway. Given the traffic congestion in the Westside, grade separation at this crossing is highly desirable.

Self explanatory.

Sit back I'm just getting started.

(Damienwg (talk) 23:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] First reply by Damien Goodmon continued: additional conflicts of interest

If my participation in the CPUC proceedings, (that by the way intends not to stop the line, but instead to alter the alignment of the line) disqualifies me from editing the page, shouldn't it disqualify Friends 4 Expo (among other reasons) as well since they too are involved in the CPUC legal case? Here's their information on the service list for the case: http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/published/service_lists/A0612005_75389.htm

You have a big problem here wiki. None of the edits I made were inaccurate or anything but factual. I suggest putting a "neutrality disputed" tag on the page until it can be completely rewritten.

(Damienwg (talk) 00:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

Cheviotla you're just making stuff up.

1) Fix Expo is not involved in trying to stop construction of the line. Just as your organization (Light Rail for Cheviot) is attempting to have the Expo Line go below grade through Cheviot Hills, Fix Expo is trying to do the same for South LA.

2) All of the edits were factual in nature, and were made in an effort to combat the bias that everyone reading the page recognizes (see the several comments below), and to provide important information that previous editors neglected to mention. Some of this information is discussed above.

3) Metro's criteria is based on vehicles per lane per hour, with a threshold of 1100 PER LANE PER HOUR (see Exhibit 2 of the often linked to grade crossing policy which is now a broken link!). Overland is not at 1500 per lane per hour, and Friends4Expo's own video showed it was only 952, which is less than 66% of what you have claimed. (Again the link is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgGmEFDTfrM) There is no document or basis for making the statement that Overland will be grade separated or that traffic counts are 1500 per lane per hour.

(Damienwg (talk) 00:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Final discussion

Unlike Mr. Damien Goodmon, I am not a member of a group, such as Light-Rail for Cheviot, and more importantly, unlike him, I haven't filed a lawsuit against the City and State (with or without the cover of safety and race issues) and I don't intend to do so. I do happen to live in the Cheviot Hills area but I don't see why this wouldn't be a plus but a conflict of interest. In fact users such as Bruabf also live in my neighborhood, even though they are on the opposition side like Mr. Goodmon and we share completely different personal views. Bruabf is also not a member of a group according to him/her. Cheviotla (talk) 01:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The supreme irony of all of this of course is that the edits which were all factual by me came weeks after the neutrality of the article and edits by members of Light Rail for Cheviot and Friends 4 Expo were questioned. I notice you didn't question the since deleted sections (which provided accuracy and balance to the article), but instead went after the source. Indeed, the only specific reference you made was regarding Overland Avenue traffic counts, and in this case you presented factually inaccurate and unverifiable information in an attempt to discredit me. Indeed, it is supremely ironic that though you claim you're not a member of Light Rail for Cheviot you're using their own inaccurate statements without verification.
And I can't conclude my comments here without mentioning your characterization of the complaints about safety hazards of the crossings and the design discrepancy as "cover," and your characterization the position of the organization which stated name is to FIX Expo as "opposition." That's not the type of unbiased/objective statement I would think would be desired for a person who desires to edit or prevent edit of the article.
Neutrality disputed label is soon coming cheviotla. And it is appropriate.
(Damienwg (talk) 01:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC))
Once again, I am not the person who is filing lawsuits against the City and State (= people of Los Angeles). I do not promote an underground line through the Westside but I trust the authority in performing their study. In fact I don't even expect a subway but perhaps some underpasses. If it comes at-grade or elevated, let it be.
Latest Overland count of approximately 1,500 is right. The video you've seen is not during the rush hour. Also the numbers have to be adjusted for 2020. You will find out when the authority announces the results. So far nothing in this article has been found to be wrong.
What I don't want to see in this article is stuff like why this line should not be built or why it should be built as a subway instead. This kind of stuff is well beyond the scope of the article. If you believe that the line should be a subway and pursue it through lawsuits, and even if you achive it, it's fine, but please do not claim that this article is the appropriate place for such discussions, given the fact that the line is already being constructed as a light-rail line.
Please do not threaten to put a neutrality tag and then say that USC is getting a subway. There are at least five at-grade crossings at USC (Vermont, Menlo, Watt, Trousdale, Jefferson).
Please do not say that USC should have got an overpass instead of underpass at Flower/Exposition. This was entirely based on the cost considerations for that specific location.
Please do not say that Culver City got grade-separation: the line is completely at-grade in Culver City. The reason why there are no crossings there is just because that's how the City was built in the early 1900s. They just didn't have streets crossing the railroad right-of-way in that location.
Please do not say that Venice/Robertson doesn't meet the Metro criteria.
Please do not say that Washington, immediately south of Venice should be left at-grade, while putting a bridge a few hundred feet to the north.
Please explain to me if the line is to be built as a subway, how would they come up with the $8 billion needed to build it.
Please explain to me if they find this $8 billion, how would they explain to the people that they would build the Wilshire subway on the Exposition railroad right-of-way.
And please do not claim that the tone of my language is not appropriate and thereofe I am not an impartial editor. Because I believe this is a discussion page, not an article.
And good luck in your lawsuits.
Cheviotla (talk) 03:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
$8 billion for 4 miles of rail in bored-tunnel, cut-and-cover or trench? Rrrrriiiggghhtttt. Did you pull that one out of the same place that you found that 1500 vehicles per hour per lane cross the Overland Ave intersection?
Argue amongst yourself Cheviotla. I'm dealing in world of facts and data, not fantasy. My time is too precious to debate people who are too lazy to simply inform themselves on the facts and constantly pull stuff out of nowhere that doesn't even pass the basic logic test just to make themselves feel better. The rest of the communication from me can be found at www.FixExpo.org (Damienwg (talk) 18:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC))
Mr. Goodmon, the Expo Line is 15.2-mile-long, not four-mile-long. I hope you, being a strong advocate for environmental justice, are not suggesting that only the four-mile-long segment in your neighborhood should be a subway. With today's rising construction costs and inflation, $8 billion is about right for a fifteen-mile-long metropolitan subway. Besides, even with a conservative estimate of yesterday's costs of about $350 million per mile, it still comes to more than $5 billion. Cheviotla (talk) 22:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

—

(Discussion reorganized according to chronological order by Cheviotla (talk) 11:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Neutrality Disputed tag

I added the neutrality disputed tag, as it is harming wikipedias name as it is now. This page needs to become more like other metro rail line and extension pages and less like the advocacy pages. Both sides of the debate should have their links in the bottom and should leave the bickering to their own pages NOT wikipedia. (Dnwh (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC))

I agree. This article should not be used as a battleground. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:25, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I am adding the links for the opposition groups at his request. I don't see where there is bickering from the support groups in the article. Removing the tag. Agreed for the need for the article not to be a battleground. Cheviotla (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Beback (talk • contribs)
I think it's funny how Cheviotla is so petrified of a neutrality disputed tag. You should not have removed the tag, as the many issues still remain with the article that I and many others on this talk page have mentioned. So you know: "In general, you should not remove the NPOV dispute tag merely because you personally feel the article complies with NPOV. Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved." Indeed the person who put it said it needs to read less like an advocacy page and more like others. There have been no changes to that effect, so why did you remove the tag? Will/Administrators please warn Cheviotla, so they will not do it again and return the tag. (Damienwg (talk) 03:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC))
And by the way, no one has said our position was subway - it has always been below grade. Cheviotla if your going to make edits you need to know how to read or maybe understand what you're editing. Allow me to educate you, below grade can be trench. Trench is not subway. Thus, you have once again inaccurately characterized the position of our group. The following explanation should be applied to both ECU and Fix Expo: "coalition of South LA community groups working to build the Expo Line below grade from Vermont to La Brea." And Cheviotla should be prohibited from implementing any further edits or be banned. (Damienwg (talk) 03:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC))
I'm returning the neutrality disputed tag. Cheviotla, do not remove it again please. We're going to completely rewrite this article to conform with wiki practices and all of the issues highlighted on this talk page will be considered. Do not remove the tag again until we all (including me) agree it should be removed. (Dnwh (talk) 15:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC))
BRAVO Dnwh (talk)!!!! Fight the mob! Maintain wiki's credibility. (Damienwg (talk) 13:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC))

Dnwh (talk), it's OK for you to think that there are neutrally issues in the article, but it's not something for you to judge and correct on your own, which would create exactly the problem you are trying to solve. You are welcome to make edits, of course, but keep these in mind:

  • Do not delete previous edits without justification and reference. They will be restored back.
  • Do not make edits without references. They might be deleted, especially if they are found inappropriate.
  • Any extensive discussion of why the line should be grade-separated or should not be grade-separated will not be allowed. This is nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • Any extensive speculation of why the line will be safe or will not be safe will not be allowed. This is, again, nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • Any extensive speculation of why the line will be fast or will not be fast will not be allowed. This is, again, nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • Any extensive speculation of why the line will have enough capacity or will not have enough capacity will not be allowed. This is, again, nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • Any extensive of speculation of environmental-justice issues will not be allowed. This is, again, nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • Any extensive discussion of Blue Line safety issues will not be allowed. This is, obviously, nowhere within the scope of the article.
  • If you want to write about such issues, you should create new articles.
  • Using any material, directly or indirectly, from the Web sites of marginal groups such as FixExpo [19] or Expo Communites United [20] is not allowed.
  • If your edits are found to be done to specifically reinforce the current legal protests of the marginal groups mentioned, they will be immediately deleted.
  • If your edits do not respect these basic rules, you will risk them to be undone.

Thank you and please always remember the No. 1 rule of Wikipedia: Be courteous to others! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheviotla (talk • contribs) 22:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then I guess you'll have to remove the images and references to the daylighted stream too. How sad. I'm giving any and all editors permission to download material from the FixExpo.org or ExpoCommunities.com websites and upload to wikipedia. (Damienwg (talk) 13:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC))

—

The images and discussions are not taken from the Light-Rail for Cheviot or Friends 4 Expo Web sites. In fact nothing in this article is taken from these sites! The Light-Rail for Cheviot copied those images from Wikipedia to their Web site.

These neighbor suggestions you are referring to are part of official public comments that were timely filed for the environmental study and can be found at the Expo authority Web site.

Even if you give permission for the FixExpo and Expo Communities United Web sites, the material from these Web sites is not appropriate for Wikipedia because it represents the views of marginal groups who have filed legal protests [21] with the CA Public Utilities Commission long after the environmental study has been completed.

Cheviotla (talk) 02:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Summarizing the Issues in Dispute / Recommended Changes

This is as good a place as any to summarize the issues in dispute so they can be edited. I'll begin by saying neither I, nor Cheviotla, nor any other Friends 4 Expo or Light Rail for Cheviot members should be making the edits. Contrary to Cheviotla's contention, unlike Friends 4 Expo and Light Rail for Cheviot, my goal is an unbiased and balanced wikipedia article. So let's use this section to debate the merits of what is currently there and what should be there and allow others to do the editing.

Just to recap the issues highlighted on this page so far:

  • Overall neutrality of the article as a whole (Alika, Kerryla, Bruabf, GeorgeLouis - indeed the only people that haven't made this claim are the F4E/L4C people). This will require much editing for the neutrality tag to be removed.
  • Neutrality of Venice/Sepulveda diversion compared to the right-of-way (Kerryla).
  • Constant speculation about motives of those who provide alternatives or resistance: Cheviot Hills, USC, Phase 1 communities, Meshkati. (GeorgeLouis) It just shouldn't be there.
  • Omission of Venice to Venice Beach route. There's no reason it shouldn't be included.
  • The map at the top of the page only shows the route on the ROW and shows extension that have not been approved and are not funded. Should be replaced with a map that shows both potential routes currently under study.
  • The entire speculation about Phase 2 should be removed (grade separations and stations locations)
  • The travel times are completely without any basis or documentation and defy Expo's own calculations (but again when you're pushing for the line to be built a certain way what do you expect). Should be replaced with Downtown to Culver City in under 30 mins as stated on the BuildExpo.org website.
  • Why again are stations on the right-of-way in the station box when there are two routes the board is currently studied (the reason is simple: members of F4E and L4C who favor the ROW route are making the edits). Again all speculative station locations should be removed from the station box. Only Phase 1 stations should exist.
  • Characterization of the links in the external section and absence of other sites (see suggested terminology above).
  • Severely below par explanation of the Phase 1 controversy and (not surprisingly) inaccurate and incomplete explanation of the major sources of the legal challenges (see Orange Line page to see how this was incorporated into the article).
  • A satellite picture of Dorsey HS or Foshay Middle School, which are the source of the PUC controversies are not provided.
  • Any reference to the cost of the project or the fact that the project budget just increased significantly.

My overall suggestion is truncate the article and eliminate all speculation about travel times, future station locations and grade separation at particular streeets until documents are produced to that effect, especially since the phase 2 route has not be chosen. (See the 2nd Avenue subway page for a good example).

Simply explain there are two routes chosen, which can be done in a paragraph, and link to both organizations in the paragraph for more information.

The organizations which support the routes should be removed, as should the daylight stream. That's what advocacy websites are are for. Why these people are so intent on abusing wikipedia to push their agenda is beyond me. Both organizations have their own websites.(Damienwg (talk) 13:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC))

I agree with you that the page is generally not very good and full of attempts to bias it. KerryLA and I have tried to eliminate the worst of these, but the small issues we havent fought over. I disagree on two of your points. I dont see why you or CheviotLA should not be able to edit the page so long as you stay within the wikipedia guidelines. I think the site works better when opposing viewpoints are active in keeping the page from drifting to one side or the other (adversarial system). I dont agree with truncating the article to remove the speculation about Phase II. People in the neighborhood are concerned about the details and it is often too late to develop opposition to the plan if you wait for the official release. Presenting information about what Metro has said and the various opposition statements and lawsuites seems appropriate to document here. That said, this page could do a much better job of documenting these things.

Finally, I want to add to your list of concerns about the page:

  • the misuse of the trench picture for phase II. This is a real trench but it lasts only 100 yards or so and the rest of the tracks through rancho park are at street level. It is very misleading.

Bruabf (talk) 16:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regaining Neutrality

It seems like everyone has taken a useful step back from the editing war, so I think now is the time to figure out to make the page acceptable to all involved. For the purpose of this I would suggest that we try to ignore the people and organizations involved and focus on the issues surrounding the Expo Line. The accusations that someone is working for this group or that or that this person is simply on the "fringe" server no purpose here. All issues that are reasonable should be addressed even if only one person raises it. This is not directly in line with with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view but since we dont have any good measures of who is in the majority or minority it seems the best approach.

References to groups or individuals should be extremely limited - only when that person or groups identity is relevant should they be named (the relevancy should be clear to the reader).

Now Damienwg has presented a list of issues with the site. Here are my suggestions to address the most important (IMHO) ones:

  • Venice/Sepulveda diversion - cut out all the speculation about this route and list only the facts. If someone has some more documented information about the line than details should be added, but the current state of this section is unbalanced.
  • Brief description of the Venice Blvd to Venice Beach option should be mentioned (again not likely to be an important - but is under consideration).
  • Add some caveats to the possible travel times and move the phase II travel times to the phase II discussion about the ROW. I think we all know how speculative these are.
  • Add information about the current status of the legal challenges and approval process.
  • Add more pictures of the tracks through Rancho Park to give a more accurate vision of the impact on the community (as opposed to the idyllic looking trench picture).

I strongly disagree that we should remove speculative (but documented) information about Phase II. That is where all the interest is.

Other people's thoughts on these or other changes to the site? Bruabf (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I endorse that proposal. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)