Talk:Labyrinth

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The Minotaur/Labyrinth connection became firmly established during the Roman period. I deleted this, with the thought that paragraphs about the Roman labyrinth patterns are better without it. If anything, the Roman pattern had lost its Minotaur/Labyrinth connotations. Am I right in this? Wetman 11:39, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The labyrinth was a popular feature of mosaic pavements in Roman times. Various examples have images of Theseus slaying the Minotaur at the centre (notably the one from the villa on the Via Cadolini near Cremona). The graffito from Pompeii of a square Cretan type labyrinth also emphasises the connection with the words: LABYRINTHUS HIC HABITAT MINOTAURUS - presumably as an uncomplimentary reference to the inhabitant of the house. A fresco in Pompeii shows the triumphant Theseus emerging from the labyrinth with the dead Minotaur at its mouth, and there was alao the famous "house of the labyrinth" there. (See the foot of this page [1] for three good images. Also [2] - scroll down to "floor--labyrinth mosaic with Minotaur slaying") So I think the connection would certainly still have been alive in people's minds at that time, if not always made explicit. SiGarb 13:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Why are the Lara Croft series given as an example of mazes in modern computer games? I would have thought The Legend of Zelda series could be a far better example... Objections? ;) Fafner 09:12, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


There needs to be some sort of diasambiguation between this page and an entry for the Jorge Luis Borges book of the same title. 5:31, 27 March 2005

Contents

[edit] Game Example for mazes

Tomb Raider is the best example for the mazes. If you ever played on Tomb Raider you would know that the dead end of a mission is because of a maze.

I think no game sould be explicitly mentioned in this article - there wera dn are many and many of them and if one is added other will follow and make article worse. Pavel Vozenilek 15:37, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Very wise. Let's concentrate on the use of labyrinth features in video games in general. --Wetman 23:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

It is a terrible habit I've noticed on these pages to associate everything with computer games or comic books. I have deleted the Lara Croft reference. It was pointless.Schnizzle 11:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of games, why is there no mention--not even a link to a page--of the wooden maze toy generally referred to as a "Labyrinth"? Like the one available at [3]. For the most part, when people think of a Labyrinth, this is one of the first things that comes to mind. -Epynephrin (talk) 14:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Labyrinth versus Maze

The maze article, which this links to and claims to be an example of, says:

A maze is a tour puzzle in the form of a complex branching passage through which the solver must find a route. This is different from a labyrinth, which has an unambiguous through-route and is not designed to be difficult to navigate.

This also seems to be born out by the example images of a labyrinth. This should probably be reworded to reflect that, though I don't have any good ideas on actual wording. PerlKnitter 16:47, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Excellent point, PerlKnitter. I edited in the very text you quoted. How's it now? --Wetman 23:05, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Not to jump on your edit, but it looks like there's a word (such as 'structure' missing from "...an elaborate maze-like constructed...". No edit because it looks like you're in discussion about a final version. Nae'blis 23:08:44, 2005-08-31 (UTC)
Good call. Fixed it. --Wetman 23:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Looks good. And apparently, I did miss below where you had already talked about that. Nice article. PerlKnitter 13:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

If a labyrinth "has an unambiguous through-route and is not designed to be difficult to navigate", then why did Ariadne need to give Theseus the famous thread with which to find his way back out again?

This probably stems from the popular conflation of the terms "labyrinth" and "maze."
Septegram 15:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I was led to this page to ask that same question, concerning the thread. The most convincing possibility I can come up with is that most of these myths have been rewritten and retold countless times, and it's likely whoever appended the thread part misunderstood the single-pathedness of the Labyrinth. If anybody has a better explanation, I'd definitely be curious to know. Would it not be a good idea to explain this somehow in the article? It might forestall other readers from thinking Ariadne and Theseus lack common sense. Recnilgiarc 14:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Not a misunderstanding of the Labyrinth's single path: The thread of Ariadne was the very image of the labyrinth's secret. Remember, we have in all of this a Hellene revision of a Minoan myth, or even a Hellenic etiological interpretation of a mysterious Minoan symbol, for which no Minoan story had been transmitted. --Wetman 16:56, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
The current text compares labyrinth to maze, saying a "labyrinth has only a single Eulerian path to the center." But the entry on Eulerian path says, "an Eulerian path is a path in a graph which visits each edge exactly once." I interpret this as touching the start and finish only once. In which case, most mazes also have only one such path (i.e., only one solution). It seems to me that this distinction is not unique to the labyrinth. --Psgs 02:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
"Eulerian" here is a pretentious distraction. If it is also inapplicable, just remove it. Here's the point to keep in mind: a labyrinth has an unambiguous through-route and is not designed to be difficult to navigate. The thread of Ariadne in the Greek telling makes the point concrete: it has no other purpose save a marginal reference to the mysterious art of weaving--Wetman 08:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An Egyptian source for the labyrinth of Knossos

The following, unsourced and with the usual passive of non-attribution ("is said to..."), is without historical or archaeological or even mythic foundation:

The Labyrinth of Greek legend that Daedalus is supposed to have built at Knossos on Crete for King Minos to house the Minotaur, is said to have been modeled after the Egyptian Labyrinth that is described by the ancient historians Herodotus, Strabo and Diodorus Siculus. That Egyptian labyrinth in its turn is believed to actually have been the vast mortuary temple that once stood adjacent to the pyramid built by Pharaoh Amenemhet III at Hawara, in Egypt's Fayum.

Herodotus' 5th-century usage of "labyrinth" demonstrates the extension of the word to describe a complicated mazelike structure, not revealing an Egyption origin for the labyrinth of Knossos (2nd millennium BCE) --Wetman 20:40, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

The information on a labyrinth connection between Egypt and Crete appears in the article on Hawara. logologist 00:40, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
There is no historical connection with the labyrinth of Crete that housed the Minotaur. Herodotus' use of "labyrinth" to describe the structure that he saw in Egypt shows how the architectural connotations of the word had developed by the 5th century BCE. I have corrected the misleading and erroneous remark at Hawara—an article that really could use some work, especially some references. --Wetman 08:42, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ilinka Crvenkovska play

Could someone familiar with the play please repair and edit this sentence: "...Theseus in an act of suicide is killed by the Minotaur only to be killed himself by the horrified towns people." As it is, it sounds like Theseus is killed twice.

[edit] more possible artwork

Minotaur's labyrinth engraving on ancient gem
Minotaur's labyrinth engraving on ancient gem

I will post some more illustrations if there is interest. Nidara 08:00, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The image page says "(Maffei)". Is this image from P. Maffei's Gemmae antiquae figuratae (1709, Pt. IV, plate 31, perhaps)? Such engravings without sources given are not very informative. Knowing that the image is late Hellenistic or Roman might be the background for explaining why there is a centaur—and not in fact the Minotaur— at the center of this (Roman?) engraved gem. --Wetman 10:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
It is in fact MAFFEI, P. A. "Gemmae Antiche," 1709. The minotaur in this case is shown as a centaur. Also, it is Roman and there are other examples of the centaur representation of the minotaur such as an Italian 16th century bronze plaquette located at the British Museum. I will add the source to the image. I will also link to other images of a more "traditional" representation of the Minotaur as a bipedal man with a bull head. I just thought it may be interesting to add a Minotaur image to the page. Nidara 17:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

This particular image as well as many others can be attained from this link. W.H. Matthews, Mazes and Labyrinths: Their History and Development

Minotaur [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]

Centaur as Minotaur [17]

[edit] Removed "oldest known examples" & Renaissance humanism

I removed this statement. It needs verification, and didn't really fit where it was. Certainly there are prehistoric inscribed pebbles/stones/chalk cylinders with spiral patterns, but these are not labyrinths (at least in the more precise, modern sense). They may be related, but this needs to be stated. Some quotable references would be useful here. Currently, the earliest actual labyrinth designs to have been discovered would seem to be petroglyphs in Galicia and Val Camonica [18].

The oldest known examples of the labyrinth design are small simple petroglyphs (incised stones) perhaps dating back 3000 years. These spiralling labyrinth-pattern petroglyphs are found in numerous places across the world, from Syria to Ireland.

I have also removed this, because it is unclear (I take it to mean that their religious significance faded and they began to be used simply for entertainment, though it could be taken to mean that Renaissance labyrinths differed in their design, being made without a definite centre); it is also unverified.

Starting from the Renaissance, labyrinths lose their central point: the person in the labyrinth is its center, a reflection of humanistic teachings.

SiGarb | Talk 16:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Herodotus' Egyptian Labyrinth

I have found no reference to a physical location for the Egyptian Labyrinth, but I have found a possible structure that seems to match the description:

Coordinates {from Multimap} Lat: 29:21:07N (29.3518) Lon: 30:52:47E (30.8797)

Google Maps has a good hi-res color image of the structure, which appears to be rectangular (with a corner cut out) and about 280 m long and 140 m wide with a WNW to ESE orientation.

It is about 5 km NNE of modern El-faiyum (former Crocodilopolis?) and west of the village of Al 'Idwah.

This does not appear to be the structure excavated by Petrie, which is about 5 km SE of El-faiyum.

(The above added at 18:47, 1 August 2006 by Tadchem | Talk)

I think it could just be a cemetery. Compare it with the other similar-looking areas on the edges of most settlements in the area (Google Earth is the quickest & easiest way to "fly over" the area, to precise coordinates – the centre of your structure is at 29 20.56 N, 30 52.29 E according to Google Earth). SiGarb | Talk 22:22, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural meanings

Hmm, speaking specifically on the origins of the Mediterranean labyrinth, I can't believe hundreds of people as a collective team still have a hard time piecing the symbolism together. This is why the world will blow up soon. I'm sure of it. In the meantime, let me give you some hints...

In a nutshell, the labyrinth is simply a symbol of the subterranean abode of the dead. Apparently you all missed that. So the maze is confusing for a clear reason: It prevents the dead from escaping the underworld. Afterall, the underworld is "the place of no return" just like the labyrinth.

The labyrinth idea derives from the same meandering path found in entrails, based on an extension of the basic idea of the dead being "swallowed up by the earth" (aka "buried"). So the deceased were originally conceived as going through the entrails of the earth (and thus, following the path of the labyrinth). And lo and behold, Babylonians, Hittites and later Etruscans would use sheep entrails or livers to divine the future because of this crazy association with "the world beyond". Then the internet came and all common sense was lost forever. The End. :P --Glengordon01 16:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

CRAP A DOODLE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.225.213 (talk) 21:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minotaur and chickens

There's been a lot of editing lately, stating that the Minotaur was half chicken, half bull. Does anyone have any idea what this is about? It's been going on on the Minotaur article as well. ||| antiuser (talk) (contribs) 08:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Semi-protection

I have protected this page because of the rash of vandalism by an AOL proxy. Let me know if people disagree. Sparsefarce 02:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

here are some good sources [19] [20] [21] (sorry bout the format there in it's been a long time since i've done an exteranl link)
Xor24 talk to me 00:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)