Talk:La donna è mobile

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[edit] Tito Gobbi

Tito Gobbi was removed as a tenor that has recorded this song as he is not a tenor (he is a baritone), and there is no reference found stating that he has ever recorded this song. If anyone finds such a reference, feel free to link it here, and restore his name. JeffyP 19:01, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the translation into English

Hi. I see a source is named for the translation. I don't know this database, and I have no idea about its reputation for translations from arcaic forms of Italian. But I speak Italian, and can understand several regional languages, and to my eyes this translation seems very poorly done. I can fix it, but then the "source" would be me, which is not the ideal. Anyone care to comment? Regards, Redux 22:59, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of the translations, is it really necessary to have so many different versions of the libretto/lyrics on this page? There should really be only one version in the original Italian, and another version in English; and, ideally, these should be set in columns, with the Italian on the left and the English translation on the right. Otherwise, the page just looks like a jumble of words. --Todeswalzer|Talk 22:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. But go to it.wiki, copy the correct lines I have taken from the original libretto, add the English traslation, and delete all these wrong texts. --Al Pereira(talk) 22:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've merged all of the translations formerly included in this article into one section. However, and although I don't speak Italian (just musical terminology!), the translation currently there doesn't seem to be the best possible one. (It sounds to me to be too literal.) In any event, if a new English translation could be found, it might add a lot more to the article.
Additionally, I added a small section on the music, which consists of the actual written musical theme along with some brief comments explaining it. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

But these are not the lyrics, these are just the words sung by the tenor (repeating and repeating). At this point, don't divide them in verses.
The lyrics are:

La donna è mobile

Qual piuma al vento,
Muta d'accento - e di pensiero.

Sempre un amabile,

Leggiadro viso,
In pianto o in riso, - è menzognero.


È sempre misero

Chi a lei s'affida,
Chi le confida - mal cauto il core!

Pur mai non sentesi

Felice appieno
Chi su quel seno - non liba amore!

I realize that Piave isn't Shakespeare, but when one quotes some verses - who ever the poet is - it needs to respect the metrics. --Al Pereira(talk) 03:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Al Pereira, I obviously agree that anything written in verse should be reproduced in verse -- Shakespeare or not. However, two points here. First, I'm confused about the lyrics now: If these aren't the lyrics, why were they even on the page to begin with? Second, we'll need an English translation of the verses you included above before they can properly be put into the article. Have you got any? --Todeswalzer|Talk 18:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
As regards the verses, please, copy and past the ones I have taken from my article on it.wiki (and, obviously, the Ricordi libretto I own). If you prefer, I can make this, too. As regards the translation, you can easily adapt the old one. The translation is a problem anyway, I mean: even without modifying the verses. Note that "unpredictable" isn't correct (see the above section). --Al Pereira(talk) 21:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As an Italian-speaker myself, I note that the translation seems a bit unidiomatic in places: "muta ... di pensiero" is indeed, literally, "changes ... her thoughts", but no one says this in English. "Changes ... her mind" would be much more appropriate, surely? Also, "chi" is translated in one place as "he who" and another as "who", where "he who" would be appropriate. I'll change these - any objections?

In "È sempre misero/Chi a lei s'affida", "È" ("He is") was absent from the translation; this needed to be moved to the second line to make sense in English: "Always miserable/Is he who trusts her"; I've changed this too.

As someone else has pointed out, "mobile" is a pun in Italian, meaning both "fickle" or "changeable" and "in motion" (constantly moving one way and another, like a feather in the wind). "Fickle" loses this pun; translations that retain it to some degree might be "volatile" (although this can mean "quick-tempered", so is not a good choice) or "flighty", which has the "moving through the air" sense. I think "flighty" would therefore be a translation that best preserves the original meanings. — Paul G 10:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that the "Alternate Translation" bit is misaligned and I don't have the wiki editing skill to fix it. If someone could, that'd be great. Thanks in advance. Tonjevic (talk) 20:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Canzone not Aria!

It isn't an aria! See it:La donna è mobile (canzone)

  • Done and done. And next time, remember to sign your comments with 4 ~ JeffyP 00:30, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I forgot to sign. Now, there is another problem: these are not the lines! Once again, see it:La donna è mobile (canzone). Many thanks --Al Pereira(talk) 00:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I see what you mean. The italian version of this article includes (what seems to be) the original lyrics, whereas this article has a more popularized version. Is it possible that the other lyrics are his original, and these were altered when sung in Rigoletto? JeffyP 19:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • After looking at the italian version of the article, it's apparent that's there's much more useful information there than there is here. I'm going to try and brush up on my italian and translate some of that information into here. As for the differing lyrics, I still need clarification on that, because I don't think I came across an explanation. JeffyP 19:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The lyrics on the it.wiki article are from the original libretto. Usually, the lyrics in an opera libretto have no repetitions (with some exceptions). Obviously, the composer may repeat "e di pensier e di pensier e di pensier" or even a whole strofa but these are just "words", not "lyrics". One can also copy all the words, exactly as they appear in the music score, but in this case without separating them in lines. I prefer to copy the text from the origianal libretto and add a note if the composer changes some words, which is not the case of "La donna è mobile". Thanks --Al Pereira(talk) 19:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll do some editing later on tonight to fix things up properly. Do you know the proper translation for La donna è mobile though. "Woman is unpredictable" sounds sort of like what the meaning is, but "Woman is fickle" sounds really off. Can you think of a better alternative to those two (if not, I'll stick with unpredictable)? JeffyP 01:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, the meaning of the single line "La donna è mobile" isn't that much clear in Italian neither! In order to understand it, one must add the second line "qual piuma al vento". The expression "La donna è mobile qual piuma al vento" in good Italian should be written as "La donna si muove come una piuma al vento", literally in English: "Woman moves herself like a feather in the wind" i.e. "woman is fickle". --Al Pereira(talk) 10:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Pardon, but it's not supposed to be "good Italian," it's supposed to be archaic(now) dialect.JBDay 03:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misogyny

The Canzone was described as "casually misogynistic", this judgment requires a reference. I am removing it untill refernce is found--Hq3473 01:42, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Not misogynistic, just libertine. You did well. Actually, it isn't a matter of reference. --Al Pereira(talk) 06:03, 25 November 2006 (UTC)



See below section "Translation and meaning" for brief discussion on misogyny topic.
Gaetano.mancuso 06:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] elephants

Unless this is one of those super-popular memes, I don't think this bit is notable and should be deleted:

The phrase 'e di pensier' can be misheard as the English phrase 'elephants, yeah!'. Joel Veitch used this fact and   
a recording of Luciano Pavarotti singing La donna è mobile to produce an Adobe Flash movie of Pavarotti showing his 
love for elephants.

Deepak 04:13, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Elephants

Yes. Please delete it.

How do the author of this major piece of flash explain the r-sound at the end of "yeah"r...?

And where would Wikipedia end if this was allowed into articles, with even lesser similarity between the words and the song, e.g. Beatles "ticket" being transformed to "chicken" here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.157.228.236 (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

Try as I might, I can't seem to shape "e di pensier" into "elephants, yeah". Furthermore, it's just plain ridiculous and whoever added it has had ample time to explain its addition on this page. Thus, I've removed the reference. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Media

I've put the sample of Enrico Caruso singing the song back on the page - I'm not sure if there was a reason for removing it, but it seemed odd to have it on Enrico Caruso and not here as well! --- Richard CHSTalk 14:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translate the bite of this canzone, not the words!

As someone who is bilingual in River Plate Spanish (that is spoken in an Italian Accent)(Buenos Aires slang, 'lunfardo', being little more than Italian)(Most of the lyrics of the Tangos are written in Lunfardo, ie, Italian) I am somewhat, if not entirely, qualified to get gyst of the lyrics.

The question is not so much to translate the words or their meaning, but their bite:

A woman will shift and flutter,
Like a feather on the wind
Changing her quiet tones,
As soon as her mind.

Always a sweet,
Pretty little face,
That in tears or in laughter,
Tells nothing but lies.

He will always be miserable
Whosoever relies on her,
He who entrusts her
His ill cautioned heart.

And yet he will never feel
The plenty of real happiness
If from her bosom
He does not drink Love to his fill

In other words, love her to your fill, just don't be such an idiot as to believe her.

Sound advice.

Awrigley 16:38, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Andrew Wrigley

[edit] Translation and meaning

I agree, especially about translating the meaning - rather than the words literally - but a balance is required to convey the way those words are used in Italian, without necessarily changing the words too much.

Having an Italian background, with reasonable fluency in the language, the following is my translation of the meaning while trying to keep the words the same:

Woman is flighty, (or fickle or erratic)
That feather in the wind,
Silent in her manner of speaking - and her thought.
Always a loveable,
Graceful visage, (or beautiful face)
That in tears or in laughter - is lying.

Is always miserable, (or wretched)
He who trusts her,
He who confides in her - incautious is his heart!
Though not ever feeling,
Fully happy,
Who on that bosom, - does not taste love?

Now a brief explanation of what I think the meaning of this song is:

Verdi was intending to celebrate woman, in a playful, funny way.
Not to criticise, but to playfully highlight a woman's imperfections, and show how we love her all the same.
This is not misogynistic, as some people like to think.

Gaetano.mancuso 06:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popularity in football (soccer)

Not sure if it's relevant (and I'm not familiar with WP:Music or any other applicable policies) but I note the melody is very popular today in European soccer as the basis for many supporters' songs. Is there any way to reference it here? Dick G (talk) 04:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)