Talk:La Martiniere Lucknow

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A fact from La Martiniere Lucknow appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on June 28, 2007.
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[edit] Assess

This is a great set of information - presented in a non wiki style. If you can use the ref and references tags and add more sub headings then this could be one of the best pages. See how other schools include infoboxes and limit the size of pictures (and then include more). Do see if you can as this could be brilliant. You must however be neutral. Tell us about alumni and why the school is important with references. Welcome Victuallers 16:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Overall a good article. The section on La Martiniere after 1857 can be made a little tighter. Same goes for the section on houses. That part reads more like a brochure than an encyclopedia article. And a little information about alumni and contributions to society can definitely help. devil 11:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reassess

This is a very important school... maybe top importance Victuallers 08:57, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

This school needs reassessing ... now a B? Victuallers 11:40, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It must surely be a B by now. There is still much more which could be added. I'm going to expand the section on literature as I've found some more sources. My only concern at present is the lack of references for the teachers and alumni. A lot of these people really should have their own articles. It seems quite extraordinary, for instance, that there is no Wiki article for the Indian foreign minister. Dahliarose 12:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-notable teachers

I've removed this paragraph from the main text as these people don't appear to be notable enough for inclusion, but I am willing to be proved wrong!

The torch of learning has been carried on by a number of Old Boys who today are Principals of leading schools in India. Terence Phillips in Wynberg Allen School (Mussoorie); Cedric Innes in Boys High School (Allahabad), Roy Robinson (Bishop Cotton School, Shimla), Allan Baker in Barnes (Devlali) and Munday Martin in St. Thomas's (Calcutta) to name a few. Dahliarose 19:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style and tone

Is "...this is perhaps the first time since the Great Mutiny of 1857 that the portals of Constantia has been mute witness to such violence..." really needed? Galf 12:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

have a go ....Victuallers 13:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)bb

You are quite right. The original article was all copied and pasted from an Indian website and had to be redone from scratch. I think this is one of the last remaining pieces from the old article. Please feel free to amend any other sections. We could do with some assistance from some local editors.Dahliarose 13:27, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni

We've now accumulated rather a long list of alumni and I wonder if it might be best to split them onto a separate page entitled perhaps 'List of notable Lucknow Old Martinians'. Some of the newly added alumni are lacking sources. We really need to find viable sources or get Wiki articles written for these people to enable us to include them. If sources can't be found they will eventually have to be deleted. We could perhaps have a holding list of alumni on the talk page awaiting references. I'm sure the sources exist but they might not all be in the English language. Dahliarose 12:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree .... maybe we leave on the main page the provably notable (ie a solid and impressive ref) until we have too many of those too. Some of the recent additions may be embaressing as there are links but they do not imply notability (some say these people are unnotable). Maybe other people are adding their mates "as a favour". Its not nice as it can make them look vain. I think the pending list is a good idea. Language should be no barrier ... its our fault for not speaking the language ... but we will need someone to sign their veritability. I also suspect that with a local editor to help then the article is close to GA. Well done Victuallers 13:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notable teachers

I've temporarily moved these teachers to the talk page. We need to find something to say about them to indicate why they are notable, or find an appropriate existing Wiki article. Otherwise it is just a list of names and is meaningless to the average reader. We also need references to prove that they taught at the school and to indicate their notability. (The names of the Principals are an exception as this is the sort of information people would expect to find in an encylopaedia.)

Boys' School

  • Hugh & Betty Dignum
  • Mrs. Simlai
  • Nelson Maclure
  • Alan Baker
  • Victor Rayner
  • Frank deSouza
  • Benny Fernandes
  • Mr. Agnihotri

Girls School

  • Mrs Whitby
  • Mrs Hollo
  • Mrs Saldanha
  • Mrs Madan
  • Mrs Maclure
  • Miss F.ThakurDas
  • Mrs M.Bibb
  • Mrs I.Cooke
  • Miss K.Bantleman
  • Miss Mary D'Souza

[edit] A good article candidate

I think this page has made it! When it started it was a very dull copy of other people's material. The page has been built up by Wikipedians, but we did not have any local and/or modern editors. We seem to have some now... more please. Can I encourage the new editors to get themselves an account so their contributions are signed. Predictably we will have some childish anonymous vandalism once the page is rediscovered and I wouldn't want our new editors locked out. Welcome again Victuallers 14:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alumni - what I did

As we discussed the alumni list was getting long. It also included many people who were "just names". We had no ref that they attended the school or that they were important. So

  • I have moved all the male lucknow alumni to a new page with spaces to take other schools
  • I have deleted all red linked alumni - I know! You are allowed to have red linked alumni so I included the foreign secretary. Oh and I removed Cliff Richard off the main page as the evidence seems dubious. Am I right? I don't know ... if we have good evidence of notability then move them back. Victuallers 16:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh and I created a new article for the first Indian girl to attend the school as she was notable anyway ... thats the best solution for redlinks ....Victuallers 16:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

That's much better. Well done! I think we probably now need just a short introductory prose section in the main article which mentions the most famous alumni. I will see if I can do an article next week on the Indian Foreign Secretary. I can't believe he doesn't have one already.

[edit] Battle honours

{{La Martiniere Prayer}} McGill University is a university and institute of higher education and not a school. Our original claim is therefore still correct and La Martiniere is indeed the only school in the world to be awarded the battle honour. It is one of two educational institutions to receive such an honour. I'm not sure of the date when McGill received its battle honour but I suspect they might even have received their award before La Martiniere. La Martiniere didn't actually get the battle honour until 1932 so McGill might well hold the distinction of being the first educational institution to receive the award. I've amended the text accordingly. Dahliarose 13:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You're right ... I was so intrigued to find another educational institution - "one" seemed more than was likely! that I maybe took back too mauch of the schools claim. Whilst I have your attention, Can I encourage more people to chat here. I am seeing some great additions but some odd deletions. Can we have more discussion here please Victuallers 13:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] School Prayer

I have created this box to the right. It is based on text from the Calcutta school. Not sure how to include it or when the prayer is said. Daily? Annually? Never? Victuallers 14:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bottom template

Many schools have a template at the bottom which list similar schools. I have quickly created one on the subject of "Schools in Lucknow" ... but realised I didn't have the expertise to sort them into the correct categories for education in India. Anyone fancy having a go? Once 98% correct then it could be moved to each school. Victuallers 23:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

v • d • e
Education in Lucknow
Universities/ Institutes
Private Schools
Government Schools
Govt. Inter College | Kendriya Vidyalaya | Sainik School
Infant/Junior

[edit] Maintaining encyclopaedic content

I think we need to ensure that the content of this article remains encyclopaedic in nature and that it is of interest to a general readership, especially if we try and go for a good article nomination. I've therefore removed the sections on school administration and the short paragraph about the school uniform. These apply to all schools in general and there was nothing which seemed to be particularly noteworthy or of interest to anyone outside the school. Dahliarose 14:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes and balance

There's been a welcome flurry of activity on the article in the last week, but as a result it's been difficult to keep track of all the changes. I've now discovered that some sections seem to have been deleted. Could people please leave a note about major changes on the talk page and give their reasons for making such changes. I've now re-instated the section on the 1997 murder. The event appears to have attracted major coverage in the Indian newspapers at the time and as such it is an important part of the school's history. The article has to have balance - it is not a sanitised advertisement for the school. If anyone has any strong views as to why the murder should not be included perhaps the issue could be discussed here. Dahliarose 10:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

There are other aspects that have disappeared that had a "different point of view", I think we need to debate this as I suspect some censoring of the page ... possibly unintentionly. But for instanse William Hodson now has no comment about him. His article makes it fairly clear that he was not well regarded and was dishonest, untrustworthy and "Hodson's horse were prominent in the reign of terror unleashed on Oudh after the discovery of the massacres". Can we have a debate ... we have a good team .. but we need the same objective. Victuallers 11:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I think Hodson ought to go back in. Could you possibly reinstate him as you are more familiar with this section than I am? If someone wishes to make an alternative view of Hodson then any such comments should be supported with references. I've also reinstated the Dalrymple view of the curriculum but I've put it in the history section as the curriculum has changed since he made the comments and it is not a reflection of the current status. Dahliarose 11:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real Improvements

Hello Victuallers and Dahliarose,

Extremely grateful for your joint efforts to upgrade the article on La Martiniere Lucknow.I would request both of you to consider me as also a joint and passionate collaborator in the project.

Somme points for your kind consideration are as follows:

Is it really important to include all that William Dalrymple has written. I think it is more hype than fact. An average Martinian boy is an extremely aware individual. It is "one boy's" version vs fact. Is the 1997 murder really important to the article ? I find it a sore thumb in an otherwise balanced article. We need more photographs. The net is full of some really beautiful pictures of La Martiniere / Constantia and you may like to add a few more to enhance the visual appeal.We can even create a Picture Gallery. We can also consider adding a Google map of the La Martiniere estate. La Martiniere Lyons also need to be expanded soon to have a semblance of balance among all the three La Martiniere cities. That's it for now.

Thanks and Regards

Vive La Martiniere !

moon 11:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hello Moonwiki. Thank you for your comments. We want to get this article to good article status and there are specific criteria which we have to meet. You might like to have a look at this page: Wikipedia:Good articles. In particular, we have to ensure that we present all points of view about any given subject. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. William Dalrymple seems to have written extensively about the school which is why his comments are important, whether or not we agree with them. There are presumably other sources of which we are presently unaware which potentially represent a different point of view. If you know of any such sources please feel free to quote from them. You can't disguise the fact that the murder happened and hit the front pages at the time. As someone who has no connection with the school this to me seems to be an important subject for inclusion in the article, as it is part of the school history, even if the school itself might not want to be reminded of the fact. Further pictures would be most welcome but we cannot lift pictures from the web as that would be in breach of copyright. We could really do with someone who lives locally who could go out and take a few more pictures (eg, a picture of the girls' school, the monument in the lake, Claude Martin's bust, etc). If we can get some more pictures it would be good to have a picture gallery as you suggest. A few maps might also be helpful. Dahliarose 12:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lists and trivia

If we want to get La Martiniere to good article status we need to avoid having too many lists. I've therefore had a go at re-doing the infrastructure section and changing it to a prose format. I was a bit confused about which facilites are in Constantia and which facilites are in new buildings and I will probably have made some errors so please check what I've done carefully. Trivia sections are usually frowned upon in Wikipedia articles, and it is normally suggested that the material should be incorporated in the main text. I will have a go at doing this in the next few days if no one else gets there first. The little village, Martin Parwa, sounds really interesting, and probably ought to have an article in its own right. I'm a bit concerned about some of the teachers in the "Notable teachers" section. Some of them are no doubt well loved by everyone connected with the school, but they don't appear to be particularly noteworthy in their own right. To be notable they must be published authors, poets, media personalities, sports starts, etc. Also, unless the information on the teachers can be supported by references, then it constitutes original research which is not permitted. There might well be scope for someone to write a personal essay on the former teachers instead if we have to deleted some of these entries. Dahliarose 12:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree, I had a look at Martin Parva, but there are only two (easy to find) sources. One is the school commenting on the villages encroachment and the other is the golf story... and the prime golfer claims elsewhere that he is from Fiji. Maybe if we have had a picture? I think it might be unfait to write an article on someones home village without some local experience. Maybe a minimal stub, but ... Victuallers 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I decided to go ahead and start a stub on Martin Purwa. The present actually has more content than most of the other Indian villages in Uttar Pradesh! There does seem to be a consensus that all places are notable and should have an article. Perhaps someone who lives locally can help to expand the article and add a few pictures. The village must have entries in some of the Indian gazetteers which could be used as a reference. I'm not too sure about the situation with regards to the golfers but I'm hoping someone can clarify. Dahliarose 09:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Martin Purwa is indeed an interesting village. It is part of the estate of La Martiniere.Most of the inhabitants are descended from the original servants and retainers of Claude Martin.It has traditionally supplied the class IV staff to the college. The hereditary daroga ( superintendent ) of the La Martiniere estate also has a house in the village. The caddies turned pro golfers are not unique to Luckno. Some other Indian cities have also seen this happen.moon 13:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I've added the daroga to the article. I've also been able to find a few more sources to help with the expansion of the article. Further expansion would be most welcome, as would a few pictures. On another matter altogether, do you think you could provide a few explanations for the curriculum section? I'm somewhat baffled by 10+2, and I also don't understand the system of class numbering. Could you possibly let us know the ages of the children in the different classes? There is in fact an article on Educational stages. A section on the system in India would be much appreciated. Dahliarose 14:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Review

Not sure, if anything will come of it, but I asked "Twenty Years" an experienced GA prime editor to have a look at this article Victuallers 19:34, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Local?

Advice please. C. Paul Chater is mentioned in the school song and in the Calcutta site as being a saviour of "the school" ... does that include these two schools? /in which case he should be mentioned more prominently here Victuallers 09:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Paul Chater as alumni of Cal Mart and he rescued the Cal School from bankruptcy and possible closure.

Regards

moon 13:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality of the Article

Of course we should try for the La Martiniere Lucknow article to be upgraded. But in our anxiety in doing so let it not be too straitjacketed. The school is unique and the article should reflect its uniqueness.

Creating a new and innovative format perhaps should be our long term goal.

I think Wikipedia is all about creating and sharing of mutual creative evolutionary energy of all of us.

I think the three of us have done our best to make the article look good.Yes I think we need to reduce the Lists. Removing the incomplete list of principals could be a good beginning.

The History of the Boy's and Girl's Schools also need to reduced and merged.

The Murder should be part of the history section and be put in its correct historical and not hysterical perspective.

The horse buses carrying the choir is trivia and it needs to be removed.Also the info on the boys qualifying for the Roorkee Engineering college.

William Dalrymples hurried opinions/misreadings need to be replaced by facts. Although it is romantic to believe that Constantia was named after Martin's childhood sweet heart it is perhaps just that- a romantic thought .

Also the theory that Martin wanted to get himself buried in Constantia because he wanted to prevent the nawab from acquiring it is not strong enough. Chandan Mitra in his book says that the Constantia was originally planned by Martin as a grand mausoleum for himself. He also mentions that the Nawab Asaf-ud -dawlah had died three years before Martin.So this is also just that-pure gossip by the detractors of Martin to prove his craftiness.

I feel that we should keep adding to the article on Claude Martin and write on his multifaceted persona. For instance Martin was an Aviation enthusiast who introduced hot air baloons in India.He was also a self taught architect as he designed more than a dozen buildings during the construction boom years in Lucknow from 1775 to1797.Lucknow owes much to Claude Martin.

La Martiniere has been constantly reinventing itself and it is unfair to say that it is cut off from the world around it. The La Martiniere Lucknow has infact been an interesting meeting and melting pot for the various social groups in the multi cultural milieu of Awadh to study together and understand each other. This in fact can be a study in itself for some sociologist.

Having said that ,the article is evolving very well and let us continue doing it.

I think both of you Victuallers and Dahliarose were Martinians in a previous lifetime ( Just kidding )

Labore-et-Constantia.

Regards

moon 14:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Hi moon Some comments 1. Thanks for the views and our promotion to born again martinians (appreciated) 2. Sure we can experiment, but don't believe Wikipedia is a hippy democracy - there is ultimately a boss here. We can argue and debate only 3. Lists - good! - agreed - can we demote some alumni too? 4. Merge historys - not sure, don't mind 5. Murder is just history - agreed.... but it cannot be lost 6. Horse buses .... strange to me ... maybe not to you? 7. Dalrymple - sure lets quote him with a fact that shows its untrue. 8. "Constance" I agree ... sounds like pure fancy... maybe we should quote it as being pure legend 9. His death place... yes I have heard other versions ... ie its for his mistress/wife ..might be useful to debate these opposing and unsubstantiated ideas as exactly that. 10 Claude Martin ballonist - amazing! This would make two GAs! Is there some sources for this? I read the stuff about CM making his own wedgewood and statues and thought that is a very clever guy. Others would try it and they'd create rubbish. 11. Unfair? So lets quote the stuff that shows its unfair. We have to show all the views. 12. Apologise for the list? Any news on photos? I see you loaded two old ones ... I have moved one to "Commons" so it can be used for all languages .... Do either of you speak any languages? It would be good to have some stubs in relevant languages.Victuallers 15:38, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

---

Just a few comments about the points you raise. We do have to work within the Wikipedia guidelines which have been developed by a consensus of the community over a number of years. We're not necessarily working within a straitjacket but we do have to follow the rules if we want to avoid having the page being decorated with ugly boxes disputing the neutrality of the article, complaining about trivia sections, etc. A new and innovative format is therefore not really possible within these constraints. We need to present all the different points of view based on existing sources not our own opinions. One source I found did suggest that Constantia was named after a French girl. If you can find another source which quotes an opposite view then we need to quote that too. The same applies with the view that Martin wanted to be buried in Constantia. This is mentioned in a number of sources. If Chandran Mitra presents an alternative view then we need to include this too. Can you perhaps amend the article accordingly or put a quote from the relevant section on the talk page so that we can adapt it as necessary? As someone with no connection to the school I find that William Dalrymple's views are important. If other historians don't agree with his views then we also need to present their opinions. Again if you have access to any sources which present other views then we need to include them. We have to be balanced and present all viewpoints. I thought our account of the murder was fairly neutral and not at all hysterical, but it definitely needs to be retained. Victuallers and I did discuss before the possibility of having separate articles for the boys' and girls' schools. Now that you've contributed so much more material about the girls' school I wonder if that might now be the best thing to do. Claude Martin is an intriguing personality and his article really could do with a lot of work. Anything you can add to the piece would be most welcome. The La Martiniere article has certainly come a long way in the last month or so. I think it might now be a suitable time for us to get a peer review to get the opinions of a few other independent editors. Dahliarose 16:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC) (Honorary Martinian!)


[edit] Vive La Martiniere

Hi born again Martinians !

Thanks for joining in. Welcome to the Club !

Some thoughts :

  • Yes i think both the Martinieres in Lucknow deserve separate articles. Lets do it otherwise we'll unwittingly be guilty of gender bias.
  • William Dalrymple with all regards to him is not a historian but a historical novelist and naturally is inclined to fictional aspects.
  • Comments by journos and 'an old boy' are personal opinion not history.
  • Yes , Lets go slow on Notable Faculty.
  • Notable Alumni list should not be reduced. All the ones mentioned are notable enough.In any case no they are not on the main page.
  • Yes Claude Martin needs to be rediscovered and presented as an ingenious man that he was , someone who was born ahead of his times. His journey in social mobility is unique . I hope some day a film will be made on this amazing human being who has been misunderstood and misrepresented in history. I really think he and his legacy "still lives in us today'
  • La Martiniere Trivia should be restored and perhaps be progressively integrated in the main sections. One can call it by some other name if the word 'trivia' is a problem.
  • History of La Martiniere should be done more carefully. Allow me to do it. I'll try to be as objective as possible.

Vive La Martiniere

Love and Regards

moon 17:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


William Dalrymple - Senior History Scholar - Trinity, Oxford Victuallers 17:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

A few comments.
  • Yes, I'm happy to go ahead with the two separate articles.
  • The interpretation of history is personal opinion. The views of journalists and old boys are all valid. Everyone will have their spin on the school's history. However, we can only rely on published sources. If people haven't published their alternative views then those views won't be represented.
  • Yes, the notable alumni list could do with some trimming. People without sources who look unlikely to be notable enough to warrant their own Wikipedia article should probably be deleted.
  • I've now incorporated all the 'trivia' into the main article. There were some bits which related to the Lyon and Calcutta schools which I've moved to the alumni section of the La Martiniere College article as they don't belong here. It is better to incorporate these little nuggets into the main article. Trivia sections, whatever title they go under, are usually frowned upon.
  • There's very little in the history section on the period after the siege and it would be great if you could expand this part, and also incorporate Chandan Mitra's views in the earlier part. Make sure you include references, especially for any contentious views. Dahliarose 20:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] School song

I've put the school song back in a box but made it a little narrower so that it doesn't take up quite so much space. Putting a school song in the main text of the article is a guaranteed way to put people off reading to the end of the article, which is the last thing we want to do. The words of the song are really only of interest to people who went to the school, and very boring for everyone else! I think Victuallers also mentioned somewhere that boxes are the recommended format for such content in would-be good articles. Dahliarose 22:14, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I agree

122.161.33.58 03:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martin's burial

I'm still somewhat confused about Martin's burial. Surely if he planned his own burial beneath the house from the very beginning he was intending to preserve the Christian heritage and to stop the house getting into Muslim hands, thought not necessarily those of the nawab. I've clarified the point about the Christian burial desecrating the building in Muslim eyes. This is an important point and something I hadn't realised. Does Chandan Mitra have anything further to say on the subject? Dahliarose 14:22, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Titles of split articles

If we have separate articles for the boys' and girls' schools what should they be called. La Martinière College, Lucknow for the boys and La Martinière Girls' College, Lucknow for the girls? Do you agree that the grave accent should be included in the titles? Dahliarose 14:59, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree

moon 03:40, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hi Dahliarose

In his book Chandan Mitra only refutes the 'afterthought' theory. My own thoughts are as follows:

- Martin built the Constantia both as a memorial to his "Constance" and his "Constancy". As such he was very possessive of the building as it represented his past ( Constance}, his present ( Constancy ) and the future institution ( Labore-et-Constantia)

- A precise and meticulous planner he must have planned his final resting place in his magnum opus-Constantia. Ofcourse he must be harbouring occasional thoughts of going back to Lyon "in a carriage" but as a realist he must have realized that his destiny was Lucknow.

Chandan Mitra quotes Martin :" I have always refused to give up the French nationality, but of which France do I belong? That of Lois XV , where I have only known misery before embarking on the L'Orient ? That of philosophers , of terror bathing in blood, or that of Bonapartewhose eastern dream has just been dissipated, after leaving Tipu Sahib alone against the English? I have collaborated for his defeat and then after he lost I have been rewarded by some gold sprinkling on my uniform-a vain plaything for my vanity.By my persevarance and hard work I have accumulated a fortune from this country which is my second motherland.I have not cheated the people who have passively succumbed to the yoke of corrupt men. I have read a lot , pen in hand, often under difficult conditions, and I know the value of the first rudiments inculcated by the paarson of St.Saturnin.That is why I divide my fortune in two.I want to thank all those who have been around me by making their life easier after my death. I also want to give the children of both Lyon and India, the instruction which I received with so much difficulty. I want to make it easy for young people to get access to knowledge , specially the sciences."

- It is quite certain that Martin was building his own 'mausoleum' in the tradition of Oriental rulers and he must have already disclosed this to his friend the Nawab Asafud daulah.The Nawab any way died in 1798 and was buried in his magnum opus-Bara Imambara in Lucknow.

Regards moon 03:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I like your theory about the name. Does this idea actually appear in any published sources so that we can use it? Thank you for the fascinating extract from Chandan Mitra's book. I'm not quite sure where this leaves us with regards to the present article. Are you happy with the section of the text on Martin's burial as it now stands? If Martin was such a meticulous planner then when he conceived the idea of the house/mausoleum he wouldn't have known that he would outlive the nawab so that theory is still valid. He did specify in his will, as we state in the article, that the boys should learn about the Christian religion if they wanted so presumably Martin's burial in the house did indeed ensure that his wishes could be fulfilled. If the school was taken over by the nawab or any of his descendants (is the position of nawab hereditary or elected?) then Constantia would presumably be turned into a Muslim school without the religious freedom which Martin so desired. Dahliarose 09:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Separation

Brief note: Moon mentioned about boys attending the girls school as part of junior school. Does that in fact give us three schools ... even if there are two buildings. Where would you deal with this Junior school... under girls ... or the "main one" (I say "main" not out of sexism but because it doesnt have boys in the title.

Also - Before you separate then I think you should both appreciate the templates shown above. We will have two ... and probably in time seven articles that will all need a) a bit about Claude c) a bit about history of the school as a group d) a bit about the logo etc. If you separate the articles first then you will have a hell of a job keeping these up to date. Suggest strongly that we develop the templates first. Then when we want to make a change about whether the motto was named after his lost love or not then it can be done in one edit. Victuallers 07:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

How do we go about creating these templates? Can we actually have a real template for each duplicated section so that in future rather than editing all seven articles we just edit the template to make the changes to every article? I agree that we should get this article sorted first and only make the split when its stable. Dahliarose 09:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Templates

I agree with Victuallers that the templates should be created first.

Clarification:

There are basically two Martinieres in Lucknow with their own junior schools. For some time till the late seventies a few boys attended La Martiniere Girls' school till standard IV. No this has stopped.

moon 08:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] templates a guide

Templates are only just articles. If you read the media wiki stuff about why they think the software we use is so clever then one of their selling points is this idea of merely typing SCHOOL in double curly brackets .. embeds a copy of one page inside another. I think this is clever cos I'm an "IT" person. Is it easy? ... well yes. If you go and look at the template above called "Education in Lucknow" and you click the "e" then you are editting a template just like it is any other article. The clever thing is that when you save the template it updates every instance where that template occurs. So give a silly example .... in the top left hand corner of this page is the Wikipedia logo.... if we could find the template that contains it then every page on Wikipedia tomorrow could say "Coca Cola" instead. I'm going to move the "Education in Lucknow" template and put it in a few places. I really need Moonwiki to check it out as I may have a Hindi school in the Catholics or vice versa. Victuallers 22:05, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for the explanation. Does it mean that if, for instance, we have a Claude Martin history template and a Martiniere traditions template, they would have to go in a box rather than be incorporated into the main article? With Martin's history I think we probably need to develop a shorter section for the other schools. Lucknow is inevitably going to be longer as he's buried there and Constantia was his house. Dahliarose 08:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Dahlia ... your right. I'm going to try and find some "core" Claud Martin stuff that can be used on all schools but we can expand where there is much more interest. e.g. Lucknow boys would be interested in Lucknow but Lyon would be more interested in the first 17 years and why he did not return. Please comment (either way) on what you see happening Victuallers 16:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] School Prayer in La Martiniere

The school prayer that has been uploaded is the wrong one. This prayer is specific to La Martiniere Calcutta as it mentions "Paul Chater". The school prayer that I recall both at the girls and boys school used to be the one that said" Our father who art in heaven".

Victuallers , all that techno stuff is Greek to me. Tell me exactly hat you want me to check out on " Education in Lucknow"moon 05:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Education in Lucknow

OK no techie stuff. Look at it. Is it correct? Does it have the right categories of schools and the right schools in it? Should we add the Lucknow university colleges? Thx

PS - I'll remove the prayer template. But I wnt to experiment with one or two templates Victuallers 07:57, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Houses

That was a nice addition. But instead of pictures it would be better if their respective coat of arms are displayed in the centre. Each house has its Crest.

Regards

moon 05:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Glad you like it. Crests would be good, but we need to find some and prove we have permission to use them (not easy). I have a wish to get some more modern photos in of the school. Martin Palwa, the lue room etc and to check the template first. I'm going to add a picture of Hodson. There appears to be only one. Hodson seems 50% hero and 50% ruthless amoral soldier Victuallers 16:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD

I have nominated Template:La Martiniere Song (appears on this page) for deletion, you can see the debate here. Thanks. Twenty Years 14:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re-assessment

Following discussion at WT:SCH I am giving this article a re-assessment for WikiProject Schools. I am going to endorse the assessment of B / Top. This article meets a B rating with it good referencing, its coverage of a variety of topics, good illustrations and reasonable well organised layout. With a bit more work, I would now consider this article a future GA candidate.

I am giving it Top importance for several reasons. The school has a large amount of notable alumni and the boys school was the only in the world to be given a battle honour. The schools history is also very extensive such as the schools involvement in the Indian rebellion of 1867. Finally, it is beneficial to have more non-US and UK school articles be given top importance to give more balance to the assessment system. Camaron1 | Chris 18:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A solution

Now that the dust has settled and I can think straight again I've had an idea which I think might be an ideal solution for the school song. There is already an existing article for F. J. Rowe, the author of the school song. I've now had a go at expanding the article. There are numerous sources on Google Books (including a snippet of the Chandan Mitra book) but unfortunately none of the books needed to expand the article further have yet been digitised or, if they have, they are not freely available. How about reproducing the song on the F J Rowe page and then simply including links labelled 'Vive La Martiniere, the school song', on all the La Martiniere school pages? The link could either be to the Rowe article or to the relevant section within the article. Interestingly I did find the words of the song reproduced on someone's blog and he said that he'd checked the words on Wikipedia! What does everyone think? Dahliarose 23:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The school song should not be reproduced on wikipedia, if it is, there are grounds to delete it per the TfD, and i will stop at nothing to delete it. By adding it back to the article, you could be seen as being disruptive to the wikipedia project, and blocked from editing for a period of time. I think that a simple solution to your problem is to find the page that says the school song out in full, and provide an external link to it at the bottom of the school pages that it is relevant to in the section entitled "External Links", anything more will be deleted. Twenty Years 12:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think you've misunderstood. The TFD did not say that the song shouldn't be reproduced, only that it shouldn't appear across multiple articles. One suggestion was even to do an article on the song, which seems unnecessary. Dahliarose 12:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
An article on the song would no doubt be absolutely killed in an AfD. I had some discussions about the inclusion of the school song on Aquinas College, Perth (before we worked out it was a copyvio), and we came to the conclusion that, although the song could be backed up by an independant source, it was not notable, and has no reason to be included in the article. Twenty Years 12:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I've now had a better idea and have taken up one of the earlier suggestions and put the song on Wikisource. I hadn't realised that it was still possible to use the same Wiki formatting on Wikisource but it seems to have worked out quite well. Perhaps this should be a model for other school songs. Eton College might perhaps like to do the same with their two songs. Dahliarose 13:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Martstamp.jpg

Image:Martstamp.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New unreferenced section

Could the person who added the new unreferenced and unwikified section please set up an account so that we can discuss the additions. I've removed the new unreferenced section for the moment. Apart from the lack of references it duplicates much of the existing article. I'm also concerned that the material might have been copied and pasted from copyright material. Could you please tell us where the material came from. I've copied and pasted the material below so that it is not lost. Dahliarose (talk) 12:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

On the eve of the event, known variously as the Revolt of 1857, the First war of independence or the Indian Mutiny of 1857, Lucknow, the capital of the kingdom of Avadh was one of the largest and most prosperous pre-colonial cities in India. Under the Nawabs, Lucknow experienced a virtual Renaissance. Much of the surviving architecture of the city reflects a unique moment of Indo-European intermingling.

One landmark of architectural achievements of this period is the grand building of La Martiniere. Major General Claude Martin, who arrived in India from France in 1751, as a common soldier, built it at the end of 18th century. However, his fortunes multiplied by the time he came to Awadh. La Martiniere was originally named ‘Constantia,’ after the motto Claude Martin adopted, “Labore et Constantia,” which means ‘work and fidelity’.

Claude Martin who died in 1800 was, according to his will, buried at Constantia. Thus, it became his palace-mausoleum. As per William Dalrymple it was “the East India Company’s answer to the Taj Mahal”. Martin also willed that his palace tomb should become a school for boys (he left money to open schools in Calcutta and Lyon, his hometown in France, as well.) La Martiniere, as he desired the school to be named, was started in 1845.

La Martiniere was a miniature fortress, with ditches, stockades, secret passages and cannons. It had Georgian colonnades with the loopholes and turrets of a medieval castle; Palladian arcades rise to Mughal copulas. Many of the statues which adorn the turrets and ramparts, depict classical figures of the Gods and Goddesses of the heathen mythology. Inside of the building was decorated with brightly coloured Nawabi plasterwork, especially in the college Chapel. It also has stain glass windows, one depicting “Jesus in the carpenter’s shop at Nazareth subject to his parents,” and in other “Jesus in the temple in the midst of the doctors, hearing them and asking them questions.”

In the lake, facing Constantia, is the ‘Lat’. It is said to be the grave of Claude martin’s horse, or perhaps a lighthouse.

Impressed by its beauty Rosie Llewellyn Jones describes it in following words: “It is both the finest, and largest, example of European Funerary monument in the subcontinent… a wedding cake in brick, a gothic castle.”

La Martiniere was only 12 years old and still struggling to find its feet when the first spark was struck at Meerut on 10th May 1857 and as far as La Martiniere was concerned 1857 was perceived of and responded to the challenge as the mutiny.

Troops were stationed in many houses at Awadh, including La Martiniere, as per the orders of the Chief Commissioner Henry Lawrence. College principal George Schilling showed similar percipience and immediately after receiving the news about Meerut, he moved the establishment into the main building of Constantia, which was suitable for defence. The older boys were armed and assigned sentry duty on top of the building during the day while night duty was assigned to the masters.

By now, Lucknow was openly mutinous. People commenced moving to the Residency for protection in the third week of May but schilling remained in Constantia with his boys. Steps were taken to prepare the main building for defence. Classes continued but the boys were warned to make for Constantia, which had been barricaded with sandbags, bricks etc. An immense iron door guarded the stairway and artillery, composed of a few swivel muskets, was mounted on the bastions. The numerous doors in front of the building were barricaded while those behind were built up with mud and brick walls five feet high and five feet thick. All the staircases were built up and all doors leading to the central staircase excepting one filled up with bricks. To do all this only a few coolies could be obtained, but the masters and boys worked hard and the whole exercise was accomplished in 3 or 4 days.

On 17th June the Chief Commissioner issued orders for everyone to move to the Residency and all preparations for the defence of the building were stopped at once. On 18th June the college proceeded to the Residency in procession, the smaller boys on elephants and the senior boys armed with muskets, forming the rear-guard. The house of a banker was made over to the college and Posterity knows it as ‘the Martiniere Post’. It was a hot, closed house, located in an extremely exposed and vulnerable position on the southern perimeter of the Residency defences.

The gates of the Residency were shut on 30th June 1857, locking out both the Martiniere’s flock of sheep and the washer man, who had a large stock of the boys’ clothing. Consequently, the clothes became an even greater problem than food as the siege went on and on. The hard military, domestic and hospital duty that the boys had to do soon wore out what they were dressed in.

The siege of Lucknow began on 30th June and continued till 19th November. This period of one hundred and forty-two days bestowed on the boys of La Martiniere College an education no other school children had ever received. Between the ages of six and sixteen according to their capabilities, the boys stood to arms, served as hospital attendants, carried messages, ground wheat and corn until reduced rations weakened them and made this difficult task impossible. Quite apart from this, the boys showed remarkable ingenuity in erecting a semaphore on the Residency Tower, from instructions contained in a number of the Penny encyclopedia. This proved to be of immense value for it enabled contact to be established with the besieged and Colonel Campbell’s relieving force.

For the first time in her long history Britain had called upon her school boys to fight for her and the Martiniere boys responded magnificently. As an inevitable consequence, the Martiniere is unique among the schools of the world in having engaged, as a school in serious warfare when staff and students defended the Martiniere Post.

Schilling, the school principal, led a party of 6 masters, the estate Superintendent and 67 boys into the Residency. All but two came out alive, in spite of the extremely exposed position of their temporary quarters, constantly subject to danger from bullets, cannon balls, mines and assaults. Schilling was accorded the singular honour of commanding the Post even after regular troops were stationed alongside the boys.

Fourteen “Senior” boys, ages between 9 and a half to 15 years, along with most of the masters, bore arms in defence of the Post. The close proximity of the houses full of rebels, especially Johannis’ house (barely 20 feet away from the Post) meant constant threat from assaults and even more ominously, mines. [The worst nearly happened on 10th August when during the general assault a mine entirely carried away the outer room of the Post, blew open the doors of the inner room and destroyed a fifty foot stretch of palisades while the boys were away at prayers. However before the dust cleared the doors were barricaded with school tables. The boys also helped in digging a mine from an inner room, a marble tablet still marks the spot in the Post from where the mine, which blew up Johannis’ house, was started. The threatening assaults of the rebels were most harassing as they made the duty of guarding the Post an extremely one, especially at night when most of the attacks, both real and feigned, took place. For over a month this duty was left entirely to the college.

Military duty was only a part of the sterling work done by the boys right through the siege. Since all servants had absconded, the boys were required to carry out domestic work and for the first time, regular schoolwork was stopped. Some boys were deputed upon to attend upon the sick and wounded, some to sweep the compounds every morning and some to draw water, some to grind corn and some to cook. Keeping watch until the Masters came on duty at night and digging pits for the filth of the establishment was the duty of the senior boys. Washing their own clothes was a daily duty for all but the smallest. At Brigadier Inglis’ request, thirty-six boys, in twelve-hour shifts of twelve boys at a time, were assigned to pull fans over the sick and the wounded, but it became impossible to keep up this number especially in September when the health of the boys generally declined.

Right at the commencement of the siege, Henry Lawrence was mortally wounded on 2nd July. Three Martiniere boys attended him.

In such an extraordinary state of affairs, the boys did remarkably well. It is incredible that only two boys died, both due to dysentery. Two boys were wounded, one when stooping to fire at the rebels and other while carrying messages.

During the entire period in the Residency, the usual discipline of the college was maintained and, with very few exceptions, regularity observed in meals, prayers and daily inspection of the boys to see that personal cleanliness was being maintained to the extent circumstances permitted.


On 17th November, immediately after Colonel Campbell’s arrival at the Residency, the decision was taken to abandon the Residency; which was largely completed by 19th November. But on the next day those boys who had defended the Post went back to the Residency at dusk to continue the defence until the Residency was finally abandoned on 22nd November. A large number of rebels were killed before the Martiniere Post in the grand assault on the Residency on the 22nd when the boys were compelled to withdraw to the basement just before the portico collapsed under the heavy cannonade. (After the assault 24 cannon balls were recovered from the Post.)

After leaving the Residency, everyone was shifted to Allahabad. Shortly after Christmas all connected to the college left for Benares. On 15th January 1858, the college was temporarily shifted in two large bungalows at Benares, and continued to be there till March 1859. It was shifted back to Lucknow, once Constantia became habitable.

At Constantia, after the mutiny, nothing remained but the bare bullet and shot ridden walls. Doors and windows had vanished, marble pavements dug up, the library destroyed, the ornamented ceilings and interiors riddled with musket ball, the ironwork removed. The Founder’s tomb had been broken open and his bones scattered, apparently in the mistaken belief of finding a treasure.

Staff and boys of the college who served during the Mutiny received the Mutiny medal. The awards were notified to the principal on 5th February 1861 by a letter from the chief commissioner of Oudh. In April 1933, the Viceroy gave permission to La Martiniere to carry a “Flag” distinct from “colours” on ceremonial occasion. The flag was first ceremonially paraded on the Eighty-First Anniversary of Colonel Campbell’s relief of the Lucknow Residency. Whether it is a battle Honour, as generations of Martinians think it to be, or a flag as the then Viceroy decided it was, it is still unique.

Ever since the Mutiny of 1857, La Martiniere always had a volunteer unit. Its students also participated in the two World Wars and wars of Independent India.

Today years after the Mutiny, La Martiniere is a monument still alive. It is a flourishing educational institution, which is proud of its glorious past.