Talk:La Llorona
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Searches for "Woman in White" and "Weeping Woman" should redirect to this article. JDspeeder1 20:31, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
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- Actually we need an disambiguation page. There is also a novel by Wilkie Collins called The Woman in White. I will try to set one up.
Could this article be coordinated with White Lady (ghost)? Very similar topic, no links between the articles. Some of this ought to be (but isn't) treated in that article. Pishogue (talk) 04:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] IPA
Perhaps it would be better to discuss the IPA versus English sight-spelling about the pronunciation of La Llorona, rather than reverting over and over again.
My preference here, at least, is for the IPA version. The IPA here is not particularly hard to read; the sounds that it describes are not particularly exotic, and are not represented by unfamiliar characters. The chief thing that must be known to read the IPA version is that the written character [j] represents an English "y" sound; and this is not a particularly rare or obscure value to give that character. In cases where an IPA transcription uses particularly obscure symbols, or an accurate IPA transcription in the source language would not correspond to the customary pronunciation adopted in English, the IPA may in fact not be the best choice. This is not the situation here. — Smerdis of Tlön 05:54, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
- It's always better to have the pronounciation listed in a way that normal readers can understand without being an expert on IPA's version of things. If the people thinking the current pronounciation isn't quite accurate, then list the real version in a way that's easier to understand instead of falling back on yet another "standard" that a group of people stuck on themselves and their own way of doing things came up with to make things more difficult for normal readers to follow.
- It's the same thing as with some dedicated group of people here voting as a group whenever anything comes up to decide for no particular reason that all animal names had to be capitalized because that's what some professional bird watchers do, or that all articles titles for Norse myths have to be in 14th century Icelandic instead of modern Egnlish versions because that's what they prefer. We need to do things so that Wikipedia READERS got value out of them, not out of egotistical crusades to try to enforce little niche standards everywhere. If someone wants to start IPA.wikipedia.org, by all means go for it, but it's not something a squad of impractical people can just show up to enforce on articles everywhere. DreamGuy 19:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Lloronas across the Americas
I know there's a version of la Llorona in the Dominican Republic, but i've not heard it since my youth. Maybe a few other Llorona folkloric stories would do this article well.
- Here in Venezuela we have a version more commonly called "La Sayona" (for the long flowing clothes she carries, a "saya", not sure how it's called in english, but also goes by the name of La Llorona). The most common version is that she was a woman that found her husband cheating on her with her mother, so she killed them both and burned the house down. With his last breath the husband cursed her to be without god or rest forever, so she keeps roaming as a ghost the venezuelan plains, appearing (and according to legend, killing if she can grab them) mainly to men that are cheating on their wives. Some versions include his baby in the house as she burned it down, others say she took her baby with her, and another variant of that last one says that she appears as a woman carrying a baby and asking people for help carrying it, if they accept the spirit goes free and the person dies becoming the new sayona. According to some versions of the legend, carrying some rolled tobacco in the pocket prevents her from appearing.
- Some sources (in spanish): http://www.mipunto.com/punto_astral/temas/3er_trimestre02/sayona.html and http://www.llanera.com/llanos/?llanos=1&lyd=1&id=2&leyenver=1&leyenda=1
[edit] La Llorona is Widespread in the Americas
I know that the legend of La Llorona is widespread in most Spanish-speaking countries. This may suggest that the legend has origins in Spain itself. I have even come across sources suggesting that it was introduced into Spain during the Moorish period. This should be investigated.
[edit] La Llorona from a different view (Conversational Q+A)
Well I have read up on what things have been up on this current listing. Truth be told I am rather questionable that these stories ever had any truth at all. Cursed with a head of a horse, Drink my teat cause I am your mother, being damned to die by hearing her cries? This is utter nonsense that just put in interest of making a story as innocent as this turn into a ghastly Halloween animated series waiting to happen... I have an Opinion on what the logical thing would have been that could have happened.
La Llorona may not just be any kind of widow, but perhaps she was a caring one and her children were being Ill given to care or financial help. Their father, who is her husband, went out one day to try and find some help. unsure of what else could happen, he may have just been taken of his life or some other reason why they never heard from him again. Without his help and assistance in financial care and medical health, the days that go past just count to the children passing away from the natural cause that could be thought of as one more reasonable explanation.
I would also say that she possibly lived by the Rio Grande river a long time ago and had her dead children buried there, not drowned like innocent victims of a womans emotional mood swings. I also would believe she may have caught the same disease as they did and passed away silently by the river. And onward to this day, when you're alone or with others by the river, and if you hear her crying, you know that it would be her weeping over the loss of her children from so many years ago. Or perhaps it would be of a female family member from her family tree long ago in a new generation mourning for their ancestors loss and her twisted story putting their family to shame...
That last bit about an extended family was just sort of a questionable slot filler case people want questions explaining the eerie cries from the river. Perhaps the sound of it makes it sound like it's a female crying would be all. Or perhaps all those stories and a persons built up fear would naturally mess with the imagination of ones mental cerebrum and create visual illusions AND/OR ghostly imagined sounds that would considerably be known as a female weeping along the side of a river. Oh, and if you're not thinking this could possibly be a more logical and kinder side to the story that could be true, then think about if a girl with a horses face is true enough to believe...yea right... - Mialover730 10:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's the problem with a story told to children that is now here on Wikipedia. Urban legend is now adding to it. Of course, there are likely different versions and some may be based on local fact or supposed events. If you have a section you seriously question, add some citations requested. If the the citations are not supplied in a reasonable period, say two weeks, we can be begin trimming the article. Ronbo76 14:18, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Sadly I do not know how to make citations on which I can reference what I am talking about. I do not mind about what is or isn't put up or what is or isn't trimmed. I am here to just place my suggestive theory on a more brighter side to the story of La Llorona. Do you or do you not think that you may be able to edit what I have put up and perhaps make it a suggestive idea of a brighter side to the story that has been told in such an unrealistic urban legend form? - Mialover730 23:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Mialover730 , your suggestions constitute original research and therefore do not belong in the article. However, I encourage you to continue thinking about la llorona and consider writing an article about her and your interpretation of her story for an appropriate outlet. If you did, we could then cite it here :-) The thing I would hope comes across in the article is that la Llorona is not a unique story told to children in latino communities. Rather, she is an archetype found across cultures and especially in culutures where women have limited power. Some feminist scholars have embraced her as a heroine, but I feel she is a much sadder figure. Her backstory changes a little here and there but she is usually a mother who murders her own children out of desperation - a lot like Susan Smith. She has morped into a harbinger of death due to the horrible nature of her crimes. She has counterparts in most western cultures and in many non-western cultures. As for your comment that she is an unrealistic urban legend - most urban legends are unrealistic and that is one way to actually see through them. The point is, the story of la llorona serves a cultural purpose in the communities where her tale is told. She serves to remind young girls of the dangers of clinging to an uncommitted man, she is a reminder of racial and class distiniction in her incarnation as La Malinche, and she serves as a warning of the dangers of being out alone when she is presented as a vengeaful ghost. As long as La llorona is culturally significant, she will live on.Lisapollison 03:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sadly, I have no guts to put this up on the archive itself really. Anyone else who knows how to is more than willing to do so if they can. Though I do hope that they don't edit it when they do. Mialover730 11:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Mialover730 , your suggestions constitute original research and therefore do not belong in the article. However, I encourage you to continue thinking about la llorona and consider writing an article about her and your interpretation of her story for an appropriate outlet. If you did, we could then cite it here :-) The thing I would hope comes across in the article is that la Llorona is not a unique story told to children in latino communities. Rather, she is an archetype found across cultures and especially in culutures where women have limited power. Some feminist scholars have embraced her as a heroine, but I feel she is a much sadder figure. Her backstory changes a little here and there but she is usually a mother who murders her own children out of desperation - a lot like Susan Smith. She has morped into a harbinger of death due to the horrible nature of her crimes. She has counterparts in most western cultures and in many non-western cultures. As for your comment that she is an unrealistic urban legend - most urban legends are unrealistic and that is one way to actually see through them. The point is, the story of la llorona serves a cultural purpose in the communities where her tale is told. She serves to remind young girls of the dangers of clinging to an uncommitted man, she is a reminder of racial and class distiniction in her incarnation as La Malinche, and she serves as a warning of the dangers of being out alone when she is presented as a vengeaful ghost. As long as La llorona is culturally significant, she will live on.Lisapollison 03:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Sadly I do not know how to make citations on which I can reference what I am talking about. I do not mind about what is or isn't put up or what is or isn't trimmed. I am here to just place my suggestive theory on a more brighter side to the story of La Llorona. Do you or do you not think that you may be able to edit what I have put up and perhaps make it a suggestive idea of a brighter side to the story that has been told in such an unrealistic urban legend form? - Mialover730 23:59, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Albuquerque Public Schools
I was raised in Albuquerque, and attended several APS elementary schools. I remember being taught the tale of La Llorona. (We were also taught the Coyote stories.) The Ditch Witch was a mnemonic to remind us that playing in ditches and arroyos could be deadly, especially in the case of flash flooding. I always linked the two in my mind, because I vaguely remember someone telling me they were the same. A google search for "La Llorona" "ditch witch" reveals that I'm not imagining it. The legend matches the safety mascot by the act of crying for children lost in swift-flowing waters. How can we integrate that into the article? --205.201.141.146 16:11, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
- That's quite intriguing. I will look into it and see how we can fit this into the article. it';s an interesting application of the folk story.LiPollis 19:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Guatemala's legend
I added the paragraph about the legend in Guatemala to "The story" part of the article. If references are required, please let me know. Infrasonik 05:59, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Broken link
The reference link is broken. When you click on it, it says the page cannot be found. --Angelusgutmann 16:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC) 16:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mexico should come first.
Putting the Texas description first makes it seem that this legend is first of all Texan and then Mexican. This is no way the truth. Although many countries have their own version of La Llorona, it is first and foremost a Mexican legend and then has traveled to other parts of the americas.
[edit] Images
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[edit] Article in desperate need of referencing of asserted facts
In the massive rewrites of this article, it appears a fair number of citations have been deleted. The article is now a bloated concatenation of anecdotes without cited sources. This is unfortunate. I would encourage other editors to try and find at leat one source for every anecdote they have considered important enough to include. if it's that valuable and that crucial to the explantion of La Llorona, surely there must be a credible source for the story, yes? That said, I believe this article could stand a little trimming. Also, please resist the urge to add everything and the kitchen sink to the See Also Section. if the article is mentioned in the main body of the text, we do not add it to the See Also. Further, just because something relates to an urbvan legend doesn't mean all urban legends should be tacked unto the See Also section. The Cry baby bridges are directly rerlated to the story of La Llorona in that they share the common theme of infanticide. However, including links to general lists of haunted places is just silly. Please use common sense when adding to the article and to the See Also section. Thanks. LiPollis (talk) 06:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
