Talk:LA/Palmdale Regional Airport
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[edit] Some Friendly Advice
Dear User:The anon: I appreciate your enthusiasm in creating this article, and cutting/pasting text from other Wiki articles you and I have worked on, but. . . Plant 42 is not Palmdale Regional Airport, and Palmdale Regional Airport is not Plant 42. They are separate entities that happen to be using the same land area and runways, nothing more. Your lack of knowledge of the aerospace industry here in the Antelope Valley and its rich history here is disappointing.
Furthermore, placing redirects on the various Plant 42 links I had already placed in various articles over the last several weeks so that everything goes to Palmdale Regional Airport is disconcerting. Believe it or not, there's a POV here in the Valley that's diametrically opposed to yours - and it's shared by those who work for a living at Plant 42. Their story is now forthcoming because you already provoked several of my friends who work there and found out about your Palmdale Regional Airport article. They are not happy campers, shall we say. . . (sad face)
Don't get me wrong. They don't oppose the Palmdale Airport, per se. They do get greatly concerned when the operations of Plant 42 are threatened - which major airport operations and being surrounded on all sides by new residents (who will invariably complain about noise, pollution, traffic, etc. etc.) most likely will be. Plant 42 operates in advanced technology aerospace and "black" programs (such as the B-2 Bomber). Any compromises in security from civilian airport operations - such as air travelers inadvertantly seeing a "black" project (and taking a photo of it) - would cause great difficulties in Plant 42 carrying out its mission. Capiche?
In the future, before being too bold in these local articles, please ask me or the Palmdale City Librarian or even Plant 42 PIO (Public Info Office) about such matters before hitting that "Save page" button. I want to help with the time and knowledge I have available (and as you already know, I know vast amounts of AV history here - because I am an eyewitness to much of it). However, I don't know everything, and I too make mistakes. Let's work together a bit more in step with each other, OK? Waddya say? (smile) --avnative 00:00, Aug 23, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] No Offense Intended
- Dear Avnative,
- I had no intention in any way of offending those who work at the facility. Please give them my sincere apology.
I simply wrote the article because it was a dead link on the page, and I wanted to crate a stub for it. I, however, am not stupid. I am quite aware that there are 2 organizations (USAF Plant 42, & LAWA) using the same facility (Palmdale Airport). I was writing the article predominantly about the facility itself, not the organizations that use it. The facility IS officially named Palmdale Airport (even before the U.S. Govt. bought it) and is still owned by the U.S. Government. The entities that USE it are the United States Air Force Plant 42, and Los Angeles World Airports - Palmdale Regional Airport Terminal. The other airport that is not referred to in the article is the "proposed" Palmdale Intercontinental Airport, which is on land adjacent to the existing facility. This article was about the facility itself, not the organizations that use it. They can be placed in Sub-Articles.
When we write articles in Wikipedia, they must be put into "laymans terms". We cannot expect everyone to know what we are talking about unless we do that. For most people in the Antelope Valley as well as the rest of the Southland, the facility is referred to predominantly as Palmdale Regional Airport, not as Plant 42, even though the majority of the operations there revolve around the USAF portion. At one time when the Valley was predominantly aerospace workers it was different. Everyone knew, because they were all dependent upon it. The times have changed and military personnel & aerospace workers are no longer the majority of those who live here. The AV is a different breed now. The majority of the populace here now has nothing to do with aerospace. Even the direction signs for the city (freeway or off freeway) refer to it as Palmdale Regional Airport, not Plant 42. It shows up in maps as Palmdale Airport for the most part as well. I was simply writing from the perspective of the majority.
When a Wikipedia user is serching for information regarding the facility, they are most likely going to "search" for Palmdale Regional Airport, or Palmdale Airport, or PMD. Only a person well versed in aerospace, or who is familiar with the military, would use the other term. I'm sure that you would find this to be the case even with a sample survey of only those who live here.
I knew that you yourself are well atuned to the facility, and that you would copyedit the article anyway, which is why I was not too terribly worried about it. You indeed know much more about the aerospace heritage here, but I cannot write an article from your POV. Palmdale Airport has long been a center of controversy, and therefore writing a NPOV for it would be virtually impossible. Therefore, the only way to create an artice about the place, is to present both POV's. Like I said, I cannot even claim to know the POV of a person who works(ed) there, so how could I write it? I don't work there. I can only write about it from a general civilian perspective. You can, and did, write about the perspecive of a person who works there, which is good, because I think that it makes for a well rounded article. Adding a sub wiki-link about the operations of Plant 42 I thought was a good idea, and if the facility ever gets commercial activity, should have one for that as well.
I understand that those who work there are concerned about jeopardizing of the facility by civillian activity, they always have been. But realistically, what happened to Burbank won't happen to Palmdale. Burbank airport was just too small. The runway is right next to the terminal. You can read the number on any plane at the place from anywhere there. It was too small. Palmdale however is incredibly large. There is no way that you can look across that airport and see anything decipherable. You could have the most advanced airplane ever built on the other side and it would just look like an ordinary jet.
Let's face it, any "top-secret" activities are not going to be done during the daytime anyway. They'd have to be dumb to do that. If that were the case, people could go right up to the place right now and take all sorts of pictures. What would be the difference if they were there on a plane, or standing on 40th, Sierra, or Columbia? Therefore, a "black project" as you call it, would never be anywhere visible to the civillian areas of the airport, regardless of commercial presence or not. (40th & N is a really cool viewing area BTW)
The time is coming where the inevitable will occur. Palmdale Airport will be surrounded by city on all sides. It is already no longer a rural facility. Urban buildup between 100th Streets West and East will happen within the next 15 years, unless we have another "Northridge Quake". It's just the way that it is. I understand that there are a lot of people here who like the rural lifestyle and want to keep it, and that's okay. But trying to ward off the inevitable is just a pipe dream. Urban projections place Palmdale at 500,000+ by 2015, and Lancaster at 265,000. Where are all those people going to be? Palmdale won't have any more area to grow on it's westide much longer. Anaverde and Ritter Ranch fill it all up. It going to go eastward and eventually merge with Victor Valley. Wishing that it won't happen isn't going to change it.
Honestly, I think it would really be a better idea to build Plant 42 on a newer facility, than the commercial airport. Put plant 42 out closer to Edwards at Avenue E and 150th St. East. That way, they could buy up all the land in the area (starting over so to speak) and make it restricted so that urban buildup won't be possible. This way, the jobs are still here, and they'll never have the risk of compromise.
Southern California is going to grow and grow and grow. By placing a facility in a non-municipal area, it keeps itself safe. (There is no city near Area 51.) They made the mistake by buying a facility already in a township. A municipal government like Palmdale will always seek to grow and it will.
Once again, I did not mean to offend you or those who work there, and I encorage your future copyediting of the articles. --Anon 09:43, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] You're Forgiven
And you are well reasoned and speak well in the above essay (good job)! I can't quarrel (not that I'm that kind of person, BTW) with much anything you said. My main "beef" was the redirects of the Plant 42 dead links to the Palmdale Airport article. I don't mind having a PMD article - it was sorely in need of being written - but Plant 42 isn't PMD, and needed an article too. I was getting around to it. . . and then you took the then-dead red links on Plant 42 I'd so carefully placed. Plus folks I know knew about your Palmdale editing exploits, and since they click on to WP too - and know me to be a usernamed editor, I got some perturbed messages directed at me to do something about it. So I did.
Just to clarify a factual point: the US government (USAF) owns the land Plant 42 is sited on. They have since 1954. LAWA has a joint use agreement with the USAF to use the FAA control tower, the fire dept. services - some of the best in the United States, BTW - the runways, and the land which the current terminal (small as it presently is) is sited upon. LAWA owns the terminal building itself, and the land originally acquired for the Palmdale Intercontinental Airport, generally east of 40th Street East and extending out to around 100th Street East give or take.
You still seem to not understand in a clear way what Plant 42 is (and is not) and what Palmdale Regional Airport (LAWA facility) is (and is not). First of all,
Plant 42 is not Palmdale Regional Airport
as you seem to say in your message above. When the terminal at PMD was open, I (nor my neighbors) never said, "I'm going to pick up aunt Polly at Plant 42 - she's coming from Atlanta with those pecan treats of hers." Instead we said, "I'm going to the Palmdale terminal" or "We've got to stop by the Palmdale airport to pick up that missing suitcase" or similar talk.
Plant 42 is not just an organization or a workforce, it is also a physical land entity. It owns - holds real estate title - to that land it sits upon. On the other hand, Palmdale Regional Airport (LAWA) uses the main facilities of Plant 42, and also owns - holds real estate title to - that undeveloped land east of Plant 42 which is it's future. PMD will always have to be in cooperation with Plant 42 to do its mission (unless PMD purchases Plant 42 outright, as you suggest in your prior missive). Please observe that Plant 42 need not cooperate with LAWA in any way - though it graciously does so. The physical land PMD owns is east of Plant 42. True, it has that terminal at Avenue P and 25th St. East, and that's what the general public first thinks of when asked about PMD, but let's not confuse perception with reality.
To say (not that you have, but as a considered thought) that Plant 42 is "second banana" to PMD would be erroneous today. Without the Plant's infastructure, PMD wouldn't be able to exist - period! Granted, there may come a day when PMD gets passenger traffic, employees, etc. that would outnumber the workforce, visitors, etc. of Plant 42. When that day comes, then one could write "PMD generates more people on site than Plant 42 does" - and you would be correct. As for economic impact, when PMD generates over $320 million in annual payroll and economic benefit - as Plant 42 presently does - then it can claim top banana. For the past half century and for the foreseeable future, Plant 42 hold the "top banana" spot between the two, until PMD generates more activity to outdo the Plant.
I'm fully aware of the great potential of PMD to become the "leading light" and "top banana" vis a vis Plant 42. However, in my lifetime, it's not ever happened. So I'm a "show me" kind of person, I suppose. I don't believe it until I've seen it. I've heard far too much hyperbole and blather about PMD going to be this giant this or that. . . and I just say: "show the cards in the deck." Yeah, Caltrans has those green with white lettering informational signs by Avenue P/10th Street West exits which state "Palmdale Regional Airport next exit." They've been there for decades now. Does that mean that PMD gets huge business? Nooooooo. . . But does it have the potential? Of course! That's why the signs are up already. The potential use by the public. The public is not generally invited to Plant 42 (except on specific organized and approved public tours, and specific individually granted passes), due to the nature of its particular mission. But that same public traveling to use PMD facilities for passenger airport/commercial freight business would be welcome to the PMD terminal and PMD facilities open to the public.
Please know that I don't regard you as stupid, as you may have thought I thought. You are a man of much talent, potential, and creative thought. It's evident you care a great deal about those who suffer injustice - as I do too. We have a lot more in common I believe than you might think. . . Thanks for thinking well of my constructive edits - past, present and future. I certainly welcome your input as well on WP - both here and on other articles which interest you. Hope this background essay will help shape the PMD article in good ways in the future. (smile)
Happy Trails, --avnative 17:06, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)
