Talk:László Tőkés

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Please rate the article and, if you wish, leave comments here regarding your assessment or the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Photo request It is requested that a picture or pictures of this person be included in this article to improve its quality.

Note: Wikipedia's non-free content use policy almost never permits the use of non-free images (such as promotional photos, press photos, screenshots, book covers and similar) to merely show what a living person looks like. Efforts should be made to take a free licensed photo during a public appearance, or obtaining a free content release of an existing photo instead.
WikiProject Romania This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Romania, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Romania-related topics. Please visit the the Wikipedia:WikiProject Romania if you would like to get involved. Happy editing!
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
edit · history · watch · refresh To-do list for László Tőkés:

No to-do list assigned; you can help us in improving the articles in the same category

T. L. is not a former member of udmr, he is member of this party!!!!!!1

Nope, he has left it in early 2007, and keeps cursing it ever since. [1] Dahn 22:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Right now, this is mostly single-sourced. The source seems a good one -- a well-researched academic paper that was later expanded into a book -- but additional sources of comparable calibre would be very welcome. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:35, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

The dates in this article seem to suffer from an off-by-one error, 17 December 1989 was a Sunday, not a Monday.

Contents

[edit] Hungarian politician?

I see that Category:Hungarian politicians was added to this article. That seems wrong to me: that should mean politicians in Hungary, not politicians of Hungarian ethnicity. László Tőkés is the leader of a party in Romania, not in Hungary. I am reverting, but I'm willing to discuss. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:45, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, you would be right if it were "Politicians in Hungary". There are similar categories and this dichotomy is an existing one, eg. "Hungarian history" was renamed to "History of Hungary". But since this category happens to be "Hungarian politicians", I think it can just as well include ethnically Hungarian politicians living in other countries – especially if they are not only Hungarians by birth but officially represent a Hungarian group of people identified by nationality. So I'd appreciate if you reverted your revert.

Adam78 12:35, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In this case I could make a category Category:Hungarian politicians living outside of Hungary. It could be included in Category:Hungarian people by occupation and Category:European politicians. What do you think? – By the way, this question applies to Béla Markó as well. -Adam78 12:04, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

  • Basically a good idea, though I might title it Category:Ethnic Hungarian politicians outside of Hungary. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:53, May 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sympathy lost?

"His recent involvement in the politics of Hungary on behalf of Fidesz has lost him sympathy among many Hungarians, who view his ideas and political statements as increasingly nationalistic and mirroring the ideals of pre-World War II politics." I find this biased, at the same time he probably has become more popular among Fidesz supporters (= many Hungarians). IMHO it should be removed. 195.56.25.215

No objection - text removed. Vay 22:05, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
It was biased as worded, and uncited, but we should be looking for cited materials related to this. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:12, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyvio

Jmabel you've done a great work but at first I thought it a copyvio too because of the strange way of citations. I think it is totally enough to indicate the reference at the bottom of the page.

If you have time try to continue the story. A hard issue because the bishop have become a controversial figure since then. It is very important to create a neutral text because that former paragraph wasn't deleted without good reasons. Zello 23:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that he has been a very controversial figure. I would love to see someone do some good research on him post-'89; I was working from an academic source about the revolution. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Son

This somewhat odd edit removes the claim that his young son was killed in the Revolution. Does anyone have anything solid on this? -- Jmabel | Talk 01:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This murder is certainly some urban legend, becase Máté Tőkés is obviously living. Zello 04:32, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

What about his statements in march 2006 that autonomy granted on ethnic basis for Hungarians living in Romania should be achieved by force ? How come that is not mentioned ? It was on all the TV stations in Romania, as well as all the papers. It was broadcasted on the main news, he said it, it's not words put in his mouth by someone else. Furthermore, throughout 2004 and 2005, he stated that the Kosovo model is good and should be applied to Transylvania (he was referring to the 1999 Kosovo war). One can not write an article about Laszlo Tokes without mentioning these two facts, due to the fact that his entire activity in the past 16 years has revolved around these issues. (<--- his own statement, february 2006).

I have serious doubts about these "facts" Zello 13:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] To Zello

Since your profile says you live in Budapest, you could not have seen those TV broadcasts. I did. Since you have <<serious doubts about these "facts">> it means you are calling me a liar. Is that so?

No, but Tőkés' statements are often distorted. It is possible that he said "minorities who took violent means to achieve their goals like Albanians in Kosovo were successful but the peaceful Hungarians are ignored by the Romanian majority and world." A malicious media-interpreter easily changes the meaning of sentences like that. I've heard thousend times speaking Tőkés in the Hungarian media and he never encouraged violence. Zello 04:52, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tokes

Okay, but the character is a radical/extremist by any definition. I have researched and compiled a certain number of quoted texts from official websites which prove that. They are Hungarian, Romanian, Macedonian, American and other websites. Where can I paste the quotes with their sources?
Laszlo Tokes' profile simply states his date of bith, etc, but numerous international quotes credit him as an extremist, so, I believe its fair to mention that on his profile. WikiRaptor 12:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

It is not a very good idea to call him simply an extremist because a Hungarian editor (for example me) sooner-or-later delete your sentence as POV. Then a revert war will begin, fierce arguing, personal insults etc. This is how wikipedia always works. But say that: "Romanian public opinion and media generally regards Tőkés a radical (or extremist) leader of the ethnic Hungarian minority" - this is factual and NPOV. Of course you should mention reliable and important international sources too (but somebody will certainly find another good source which call him "staunch and courageous").

But there is another problem: as you see the article displays the life of the bishop only until 1989. Later events are missing, probably because nobody dared to continue the article in fear of harsh controversions. I think at first somebody has to collect and present the mere facts and after we'll have more than enough opportunity to dispute about divisive attributes. Zello 13:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

So, does that mean more work on this article is postponed until his biography after 1989 will be completed? The sources I have are international, and they all call Laszlo Tokes an extremist and a radical, that's why I thought it would be appropriate to mention that in his biography. Also, I want to make a few comparisons. Corneliu Vadim Tudor is cited as an extremist, but Tudor and Tokes are thought by the intl. community to be the two opposing extremist forces in Romania. Tudor is cited on Wikipedia as an extremist, Tokes is not. Furthermore, Gheorghe Funar is also cited as an extremist, and nobody could came up with quotes about outrageous statements he made. I think it's unfair to call Funar an extremist and Tokes "just a personality". If you want to edit Tokes' life after 1989, or if you can find people who want to do that, let's complete this article. I will then present my sources, because I believe a few notes about radicalism should be added to his biography, as well. WikiRaptor 14:48, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I think somebody should complete the biography at first. It would be really strange to continue the present article with sentences about his reputation without even mention what he did between 1989 and 2006. Next week I hope I'll have time to do some work. Of course I disagree with you about Tőkés and Tudor but I think this is really not the appropriate time of debate yet. Zello 15:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Alright, please edit his biography between 1989 and 2006 in the coming week, and we will discuss how to add the data from those sources afterwards. WikiRaptor 00:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Work in progress... Zello 18:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello there Zello and congratulations for your contribution. I apologize for my delayed reply. I have some remarks regarding some areas of the article, but we should leave that for later. Please tell me where should I paste my quotes and their sources. Fact is, there are so many of them, and in case I'll paste them on this talk page, it would flood the page. However, I believe this is the only place where I could possibly put them. If you agree with that, let me know, and if not, kindly direct me towards a proper place for me to put them. I will wait your reply. WikiRaptor 04:09, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If the quotations are available on line, just link rather than copying. If the list is massive, you might consider editing it down to the relevant material yourself before posting. If you are certain that something massive is relevant, you might start a page with a name like Talk:László Tőkés/Additional materials, put them there, and link from here; then people can work together to work out what belongs in the article. - Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oradea (Nagyvarad) or Királyhágómellék?; Joint Reformed-Orthodox festival before the 1989 Revolution?

Instead of "Bishop of Királyhágómellék" I would say "Bishop of Oradea" as many people don't know what Királyhágómellék (Romanian: Piatra Craiului, the name of a mountain East of Oradea) is, but heard about the city of Oradea (Hungarian: Nagyvarad), where the headquarters of the bishopric is situated. I wonder if Deletant is right about the fact that Tokes collaborated with the bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Church on a festival in spring 1989. I made my own research on this subject and published a book (in Romanian)http://procesulcomunismului.com/marturii/fonduri/mmioc/revmistere/default.asp.htm In the disscussion with me, neither Tokes or other witnesses didn't mention that such a joint Reformed-Orthodox festival was done before the Revolution. Marius 13 august 2006

Királyhágómellék is the official name of the ecclesial unit, Tőkés is simply not called Bishop of Oradea. Zello 00:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Királyhágómellék is the official name, but the expression "bishop of Oradea" is more used. If it will be an article about Királyhágómellék in Wikipedia the issue will be solved. An inaccuracy: "the Securitate objected to an October 1988 cultural festival organized jointly with the Roman Catholic church in Timişoara". This festival was organized in 31 October 1988 (why not put the exact date in the article?) - the day of Reformation. In the organisation took part the amatheur Hungarian-language theatre group "Thalia". Maybe some of the members of "Thalia" were Catholics (as the majority of Hungarians in Timisoara are), but surely the Catholic church was not involved, it was a specific Reformed celebration. Marius 13 august 2006 21:30

In Hungarian media Tőkés is always called bishop of Királyhágómellék, never Bishop of Nagyvárad or bishop of Oradea. Hopefully sooner or later somebody will create an article about the church district. As for the other problem I don't know the situation but if you have this information you should correct the article. Zello 19:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

On the Orodea thing: perhaps a parenthetical remark is in order, "(usually referred to in the Romanian press as bishop of Orodea)"? - Jmabel | Talk 23:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I added the reference about Hungarian-language theatre "Thalia", corrected the number of deaths in the Revolution and put bishop of Oradea, with explanation that the official name is Királyhágómellék. Is necesary to use "bishop of Oradea" as in the same sentence Laszlo Papp is refered as "bishop of Oradea", and it should be clear for readers that we are talking about the same thing. Marius 19 august 2006

Why should http://timisoara.com/newmioc/69.htm be considered more authoritative than Deletant's citation of Adevărul? It appears to be a personal web site. Not only that, but if you go one level up the directory hierarchy it says (I apologize in advance for reproducing this, but it is to the point) "What do YOU want here ???? DICK HEAD I'll take you to the right place, don't try look in here, is not for you." This does not exactly suggest a site that ought to be taken seriously as a reliable source. Even if there is a case for saying it is reliable, I don't see a reason to replace the other citation and numbers rather than just state that there is a disagreement and give both. - Jmabel | Talk 07:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I took the data from Timisoara's Military Prosecutor's Office, those are the official data. There is a disscussion about a small number of unidentified victims - for some medico-legal certificates of people who were incinerated in Bucharest there is no clear who they are, in the same time they are some people considered killed in the revolution without a medico-legal certificate. Is possible that those people without certificates match with the certificates of "unidentified" victims, but this is not proved 100%. Depending on the fact we consider or not the "unidentified" victims the same as the victims without a certificate, and that we add or not some unclear cases, the number of deaths in Timişoara Revolution is between 90 and 95. Surely is not 122. Deletant probabily took a list where were added people from Timiş county killed during the Revolution in other parts of Romania, people killed in other cities around Timişoara which were in the jurisdiction of Timişoara's military prosecutor office, people who committed suicide or were killed in that period in accidents and double-counted some names (wrong spelled and considered a separate person).--MariusM 17:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hungarian names

Why is almost every single place name in this article mentioned twice — once in Romanian, and then in Hungarian? I understand this being done (perhaps) in the lead, and once or twice if really important for the context, but, as is, I think it distracts from the narrative, and disturbs the flow. For example, do we need to say, every single time, "Oradea (Nagyvárad)" (with superfluous wikilinks after a while, to boot)? Turgidson (talk) 02:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Bilingual names are a quintessential identity issue. As an ethnic Hungarian Tőkés himself calls these towns on their Hungarian names. It seems to me somehow inappropriate to use only Romanian names in his case. I wouldn't like to see bilingual names in the Corneliu Vadim Tudor article :)) (Not that I think that they are the same) Zello (talk) 20:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but that was 'not my point. My question was (and still is): why keep repeating "Oradea (Nagyvárad)" (and so on) almost every single time a name of a locality occurs in this article? Is this how an encyclopedia article should look like? The conventions should be uniform, and based on some general rules, not on how the subject of an article may (or may not -- how would one know? and why should that matter?) call a given city or town. Yes? Turgidson (talk) 21:15, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably there is no such rule that in biographical articles native names should be used, I don't know, I'm not really good at wikilawyering. But I think bilingualism is a reasonable claim in this case when the biography of the given person belongs also to Hungarian history and culture. To give an example I'm sure that the Avram Iancu article should use Romanian place names even though Hungarian names were the official ones that time. It is simply strange and inappropriate otherwise. And one more name in brackets hurts nobody. Zello (talk) 01:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Zello, I think you're missing the point: what Turgison was asking is if there is any reason why, once the in-brackets alternative is given upon first mention in the article, there is still a reason to provide it a second time, a third time, a fourth time etc. in the same article. I think that should be remedied, but, on the other hand, this article is in such a messy state that this would be a mere detail. Presumably, if people start paying attention to how this article is structured and to just how violent a clash exists between it and the WP:MOS, this little thing will be remedied as part of a larger process. Dahn (talk) 01:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I think "usage" means continuous usage not only one mention at the first time. Obviously the user, who had originally wrote the bulk of the article, were on the same opinion. But we are basically debating about something which is a matter of taste, and the issue is not really important. If it seems much better for you then let us delete the brackets, although I don't see them so disturbing. Otherwise I would personally prefer the (almost) monolingual usage of minority names about people belonging to an ethnic minority (historical and contemporary alike). At least in such clear cases when nationality is out of question. Zello (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not merely a "matter of taste," it's a matter of writing in a style that has a chance to raise this article—which is now at the level of "Start"—to something approaching a "B" level. The following type of sentences (over-linked, over-parenthesized, etc) brings the level of the article down, I think:

After the dispossession of the discredited Communist bishop of Oradea (Nagyvárad), László Papp in 1989, Tőkés was elected as a bishop of the Reformed Church District of Oradea (Nagyvárad) (Királyhágómellék as official name). [...] The Christian University of Partium in Oradea (Nagyvárad) was one of the bishop's favorite projects as the first Hungarian-language private university in Romania (opened in 1999). His other notable initiatives are the child-care center in Oradea, an orphanage in Aleşd (Élesd), Bethesda Health-Care Center in Arduzel (Szamosardó), Peter Reformed Elementary School in Salonta (Nagyszalonta), and a nursing home in Tinca (Tenke).

I mean, can't we do better than that cascade of parenthesis? I'm willing to help, but, unless at least some of those parenthesis go, I think it's hopeless to ever try and raise the level of the article. (And, as Dahn says, we're just talking here about a small, punctual issue -- there are other things in this article that do not conform with the Manual of Style.) Turgidson (talk) 01:59, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the church district name with the two brackets is really ugly. By the way I remember that one or two years ago it was only "Reformed Church District of Királyhágómellék" and later it was changed. The official language of the Reformed Church in Romania is still Hungarian so I think the Királyhágómellék name should be used with an explanation in brackets that "centred in Oradea". Zello (talk) 17:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Militia" should be police

This is capitalist English Wiki ;) --84.234.60.154 (talk) 18:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Removed Military History tag as article is out of scope. --dashiellx (talk) 19:15, 11 June 2008 (UTC)