Talk:Kyūdō

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[edit] Mongol Draw -image

I removed the image representing 3 different ways to draw a bow. It thought it was misleading and not informative enough. The draw claimed to be "the draw for yumi" was not correct. Thumb position was clearly incorrect and also in kyudo yumi is always drawn with a glove. I think it is not worthwile to illustrate a merely similar style of shooting. Pictures of actual kyudo technique would be welcome.Simohell 21:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

And I undid the removal mysef. It is maybe not too wrong, although the thumb is not correct. I do still hope that it could be replaced by all correct image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simohell (talk • contribs) 21:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I have some pictures of a mitsugake holding a bowstring which we can replace the draw image with once I reach 10 edits (Which at the rate I'm going, might be tonight...*Sigh*) Aabh (talk) 15:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time to master kyudo?

"Kyudo is a rare sport in the sense that one can master the art at 90 or even 100 years of age."

That sounds like you can master kyudo in half a year, when in truth I'd assume at least 30 years. Better start at 60 if you want to be a master at 90 then, or yet better start at 18, because at high age you will not be able to create the specific muscles needed for superb shooting. Kyudo is a physical "sport" after all.

The point is, that a master can continue to be a master until a very high age by perfecting his technique. In Heki-ryu it is said that "a beginner shoots with his skin, advanced with his muscles but a master with his bones." The correct form reduces (although does not eliminate) the strain for the musceles. I have been told that there have been top level kyudo competitions with people over 100 years making it to the top 3. The sentence could be changed to express this idea better, but I am not a native english speaker so better for someone else to do itSimohell 21:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the setence needs to be changed. I have made a revision. I don't think in that particular paragraph we need to get into the minute details of how an older person can still excel. Zarcath 11:50, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I changed it again. You added some comments about Zen and Kyudo which are very problematic. Read the discussion about this problem further down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.61.212.208 (talk) 12:41, 14 May 2007 (UTC).
Your revision is worse then what it was before I changed it. It isn't practiced by both genders equally, it's viewed as a predominantly female sport. You say it's best to start after puberty which is complete speculation on your part. My paragraph only mentions Kyudo can be used as a form of zen mediation. This is not the same as saying Kyudo is Zen training or anything of the sort. The spirit of kyudo is to better one self, and for an introduction paragraph you want to get that across. If you have the right attitude and spirit you can excel at kyudo no matter what your age. Someone even reverted it back to my paragraph and you changed it again back to your version! If you have a problem with the allusion to Kyudo and Zen, just remove that part next time. Zarcath 09:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

You should read the discussions here. It is not viewed as a female sport. Starting after puberty is not speculation. As I wrote, it is better to start when your bones have stopped growing. If you start to early, you can get bone defects. That's why most japanese kyudoka start in highschool or college. Starting at 2 is ridiculous. The part about bettering yourself is already described in the paragraph below the introduction. Again: Read before you write something. Spirit and attitude are important, but technique and strength are too. You cannot excel at kyudo if you don't start early enough.

You can LEARN about Kyudo at age 2, I didn't say you could start shooting at targets at that age. Maybe in cases if a young child is shooting an extreme amount, deformations can occur, but this is true with ANY atheletic sport, it's common-sense. I think Japan offering Kyudo courses during High School is just a matter of practicality. Why would they tailor courses for middle-school when children are least likely to care about it? Our youngest student is 13 and a friend in Japan started at 10. Our sensei comes from a Kyudo family and started learning from a young age. With the correct technique, strength does not play a large role, isn't that your example with the elderly? Zarcath 09:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
(the example with the elderly was not his but mine.) It is maybe a question of if learning at age 2 can be called learning kyudo. It is may be more like learning in general. I would like to think that kyudo needs to be a conscius effort towards a specific goal, not only mimicing others movements. This is something a very young child may not able to comprehend. Again difference betweed plain technique and the way (dō). I know some cases with kyudo starting at age 10. For instance late headmaster of Heki-ryu Insai-ha and one of the original 5 developers on kyudo kyuhon Sakae Urakami (10. dan, hanshi). In any case if we say "at any age" we can't then define again from ages "2-100". Thus I removed the numbers. Simohell 10:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, no one even really touches a bow here (Japan) until late Junior High or High School... I guess one could say "You can learn Kyudo at 2"... but it's like saying "You can learn to fly an airplane at 2"... and that's misleading. It implies that Kyudo can be practiced by young children, and that really is considered too dangerous (It may be different in the West... but that's the case here in Japan). It's not "practicality" that causes Kyudo to be practiced only in High School and above, if that were true then Kendo wouldn't be practiced in junior high. Its not all because of bone defects, Kyudo is a dangerous sport, resulting in death if mishandled (We had a girl get shot just a couple of months ago by accident in a high school). There is a level of maturity you need to have to perform Kyudo. Your sensei must have decided the 13 year old was mature enough (Which is perfectly alright), but it is really rather uncommon. Thus, I revised the opening paragraph slightly, and added the section on Kyudo and children. Aabh (talk) 15:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Myth about hara and otoya

It's a myth that haya and otoya exist to avoid hitting the same spot. Arrow makers simply didn't want to throw away one wing of a bird.

I belive you have at least a slight mistake here. If you have made arrows yourself you know, that each feather is cut in half - and both halves can be used (if the feather is large enough). This also applies to the birds tail feathers, which I hear are the best. Thus even from the tail you get both haya and otoya, although there is no 2nd tail to throw away. An in any case the flight of haya and otoya is different, since not only the feathers but also the lining of the feather is revesed. (the feather for the 1st arrow is left towards the tip while with the 2nd it is the other way around)Simohell 21:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


When you split a full feather in two, the two sides will be different. You cannot use them on the same set of arrows. I have seen the "underside" of feathers used on makiwara and enteki arrows. The feathers should be aligned straight on the shaft, so Otoya will just spin in the opposite direction of Haya. This has no effect on the path of the arrow though. You can make a set of arrows with haya and otoya from the tail, because the feathers are bent differently starting from the middle.

The alignment of the feather is different in different arrows because the "stick" part or "pen" (I don't what it is called in English) is slightly thicker from one side and also thicker towards the tip of the arrow. In otoya and haya the thick part is on different sides. (thus I have been told, the first arrow is chosen in order to show the cleaner side of the feather towards kamiza). Therefor if the stick-part is straight the feather is aligned differently and if the feathers are straight the stick-part needs to be aligned differently.
It is hard for me to accept that the flight path would be exactly the same: the spinnig affects the stability of the flight and hineri affects the spinning. This would implicate that the spinning is initially stronger in one arrow and weaker in the other. Then the first would stabilize sooner and it means that the flight pattern is not identical. The effect of the difference in spinning may be of course only theoretical but so is the whole question since there never will be two identical realeses. It is obviously fair to say that the different spinning will not in practice make any difference in whether two consecutive arrows hit each other or not. - which in a way would appear to mean it cannot be properly proven to be wrong either.
Discarding one wing does not seem to be a logical explanation in any case. Any professional arrowmaker would be making hundreds and hundreds of arrows. I would imagine he would have a stock of feathers, wings or birds big enough to make a set of arrows only from a few left wings and another set from the same birds' right wings. There would not be any problem with discarding wings then, just to make the different or even randomly mixed sets. A bird might also have one damaged and one good wing, or what ever.
There may be many other reasons as well... yin and yang kind of things or just wanting to make a rather insignificant although clearly visible difference appear to have a meaning by making different justifications. Maybe the article could say it is claimed that the effect of different rotation... or something like that. To make judgement of the generally spoken idea that spinning affects the flight pattern it would be rather good to have a source that proves or indicates it otherwise. Simohell 21:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Considered a female sport?

TakyuaMurata: I removed the sentence In Japan, Kyudo is sometimes considered female sport. because that sentence, to me, reports an opinion about Kyudo and does not discuss the art directly. But I agree with you in that it is a key fact that many women practice kyudo in Japan, so I added: In Japan, by most accounts, the number of female Kyudo practitioners is reported to be at least equal to and probably greater than the number of male practitioners.

If you really want to include text about how Kyudo is viewed in Japan as it pertains to the sexes, I will not disagree with you any further, but I feel the original sentence implies a sexism which, although it may be true, is not about kyudo but is an opinion about Kyudo. - Jordan Langelier

In any art with a majority of male practitioners would it be stated in the beginning of an article? I wonder... in any case as far as I know there is only one female Hanshi-rank kyudoka in Japan. So a very very clear majority of experienced kyudoka are definately maleSimohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Or it is a sad testament to discrimination of women in Japan. Especially if you consider that there are over 100 Hanshi. The percentage of women who train Kyudo is surely higher than 1%! As far as I know there is a special committee who decides who is worthy of the titles Hanshi, Kyoshi and Renshi. I would assume those are all male too.

I'm not so sure. In my dojo I have approximately 25 students that visit from time to time. My master is 8th Dan (Challenging 9th Dan), and there are two other 8th dans in the class (Lower ranking than my master), these three are male. Next down, though, is a 7th dan female (She's been practicing for 25 years). After that it seems to be 50/50, with a number of female and male 6th dan and below. I'm not so sure its a matter of prejudice anymore, many women give up kyudo here to care for families or other matters. Japan has been slow to join the equal-rights movement, but in the 90s, things really changed here. It's not perfect, but it is approaching equality really fast. In any case, it's hard to find women who have been studying kyudo for 30 or 40 years (Which is generally what it takes to be Kyoshi here in Japan) and didn't give it up because (in the 70s or 80s) their husbands told them to, or whatever. I think, given another 20 years, you'll see just as many females in the high ranking positions as you do males. There were two female and three male judges at my Shodan test, one of the females was 8th Dan, the other 7th Dan. Anyway, that's why you see so many young women in Kyudo but not so many older women... give it 20 years and you'll see that change. I guess I shouldn't protest the "womens' sport" thing... that's already been done. :D But I will add that my dojo is 50/50 and the last competition I went to was pretty much 50/50 Aabh (talk) 23:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed sections

Some things that can be incorporated:

Onuma Hideharu, 15th headmaster of Heki Ryu Sekka Ha, said the purpose of kyudo was to achieve perfection (which he considered to be impossible--when asked "why bother, then?" he replied "to not try is to be less than human.")

History of the modern form of kyudo as set by the All Japan Kyudo Federation (Zen Nihon/Nippon Kyudo Renmei) following World War II.

Hassetsu should be covered at least briefly--at the very least the basic movements should be listed:

1. Ashibumi (setting the feet properly)
2. Dozukuri (proper posture)
3. Yugamae (readying the bow)
(3a. Torikake (setting the glove))
(3b. Tenouchi (gripping the bow))
(3c. Monomi (viewing the target))
4. Uchiokoshi (raising the bow)
5. Hikiwake (drawing the bow)
(5a. Daisan)
6. Kai (finishing the draw)
7. Hanare (release)
8. Zanshin (continuation)

The differences between bushakei (warrior-style kyudo) and reishakei (ceremonial-style) should be expounded.

Difference between 'shomen no kamae' and 'shamen no kamae'; 'shomen uchiokoshi' and 'shamen uchiokoshi' etc.

Different types of yugake:
mitsugake (three-fingered) -- standard
yotsugake (four-fingered) -- used by many advanced practitioners; originally for long-distance shooting
morogake (five-fingered) -- used almost exclusively by Ogasawara Ryu practitioners

I just read this section and it contradicts what I wrote about a five-fingered glove (I didn't even know they existed! :D), so I will add that back in, would someone who knows more about the morogake please expand upon it? Aabh (talk) 23:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


I have added a more detailed explanation of the hassetsu. Bits are taken from the Finnish version of the page, which also has a larger history section, parts of which could also be used here. That version is more heki ryu-centric, though, but on the other hand this version is fairly ANKF-centric. Also added References, feel free to add more. The Hoff book is primarily about heki ryu. Vuori 12:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Also added the "approximately half a million practitioners". This number of mentioned both in the Hoff book and the Tripplett article. I moved the Guide to studying martial arts in Japan to the budo article, since while interesting, it's not directly relevant to kyudo. Vuori 16:39, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

A list of kyudo dojo outside of Japan would be a useful link.


[edit] Equipment Used by 'Advanced' Practitioners

Recent add: "Even advanced kyudoka typically own non-bamboo yumi and ya due to the vulnerability of bamboo equipment to extreme climates."

Advanced? Is that true? Advanced beginners, sure, but truly 'advanced'? I really have a hard believing that someone who has practiced kyudo for 10+ years would use a synthetic yumi or a ya not made of bamboo, other than as a training aid. But then again I have lead a sheltered life ;) Jordan Langelier

Yes this is quite true - for instance in addition to some European there are both Japanese Heki-Ryũ sensei (which obviously means renshi upwards) who use (at least when visiting Europe) non-bamboo bow and especially non-bamboo arrows Simohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

---

It is true. I study at a dojo in Apex, North Carolina (USA) under Dan DeProspero, renshi rokudan. While I have never seen my teacher shoot with a fiberglass bow other than as a demonstration, his senior student (a yondan who has been practicing kyudo for almost thirty years) does indeed use a carbon bow during the winter months when it is too cold to use a bamboo bow safely (for fear of breaking).

---

Interesting. I'll ask Don Symanski (who probably made the bamboo yumi's this yodan is concerned about) about that, and what the safe temperature range is for his yumis. Jordan Langelier 16:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

--

It is indeed a Symanski bow that he uses. As further clarification, the bow can and has been used during winter months (which normally means in the thirties at night time practice)--it just has to be warmed up so it is not as rigid. I didn't intend to say the bow was in immediate danger of breaking during winter use--it most certainly is not.

--

Thanks for the clarifaction. I'll still ask Mr. Symanski (on Sunday) about what the proper use is for winter, because I think it will be a good addition for the Yumi article and because I'm curious. I'll be particularly interested to get his take on rigidity in coldness. I do recall him mentioning an absolute temperature you should not go outside with a yumi, but I'll have to get him to remind me on that. My personal understanding on the coldness issue was that it is not a good idea to take a yumi which has been indoors at a relativly high temp outdoors and use it without it becoming acclimated to the coldness because of the temperature differential. Other than that I personally don't worry about coldness, it's low humidity I worry about. In North Carolina dryness is probably not a problem but where I practice (Boulder, CO) it can get very dry and I have seen yumis 'explode' is the only way I can categorize what happens to them sometimes. Someone will draw a yumi subjected to dryness, and it just 'explodes' is the impression it gives me when it happens. That's the only time I've seen one suffer damage from usage is in the summer. Thanks, and I'll let you know what Mr. Symanski thinks about how his yumis should be used and treated in the cold. Jordan Langelier 04:43, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Competition

The article currently reads: In this respect, competition, examination, and any opportunity that places the archer in this uncompromising sitation is important

This makes it sound as if competition and examination are, without a doubt and universally, a part of Kyudo, which is not true. To most kyudoka, sure, but it is not a universal belief. I'd like to see that sentance reflect that, or at least not make it seem that all practitioners believe that competition and examination are a good thing (in fact, some would say not only are they not important but are bad things, but I'm not about to go there ;) Jordan Langelier 05:28, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

--

A good addition to this issue may be to bring up the three "modes" of shooting: toteki, kanteki, and zaiteki.


[edit] Kyudo as Zen Meditation

Recently additions were made to the main article that implied Kyudo was tightly bound together with Zen Buddhism. I do not feel that this is accurate. There is Zen influence (as with most Japanese martial arts), but in my experience it is not dominating. Some schools may have a lot of Zen influence, some may have very little. I feel the issue needs discussion before it is added back into the article. --65.190.189.82 15:37, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with you that this tight bondage of Zen and Kyudo is a relativly recent phenomena. A hundred years ago, to the best of my knowledge, Zen was no more assoctiated with Kyudo than any other Japanese art, as you stated. However, Zen and Kyudo are, today, tightly bonded for many practitioners (perhaps 'That Book' is responsible for it) and a paragraph or two about it would be a welcome addition. Jordan Langelier 16:09, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Some would say (and have said) that there is no bond between Zen and Kyudo, only at best between Zen and Zen practitioners' perceived "Kyudo".Simohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This excellent article, written by Yamada Shoji, deals with the problem of Kyudo and Zen: "The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery" http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/jjrs/pdf/586.pdf —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.61.214.20 (talk) 18:27, 12 May 2007 (UTC).
The article by Dr. prof. Yamada is an excellent source also for some other aspects of kyudo. The article is a proper academic source on kyudo (one of the few available for non-japanese-speakers) that can easily be referred to. Dr. Yamada is not only an associate professor in International Research Center for Japanese Studies but also an experienced kyudoka himself and a member of Nihon Budô Gakkai, the Japanese Budo Academy. Rather too often we need to rely on less reliable written sources or oral tradition (some of the latter is of course passed on by academically merited professionals of kyudo, but the notes taken from the lectures are not easy to verify). Simohell 20:10, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] more media?

on a sort of random note, i noticed members of JPop group Morning Musume doing kyudo in the music video for their song "Namida Tomaranai Houkago":

(http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=sAW-1A_tybE&search=namida)

while not the ideal example, i think it'd be helpful if more photos or video showing kyudo, elspecialy the beauty of hassetsu, were added to the article. maybe a section for media links should be added for outside galleries, videos, or the appearance of kyudo in the media? --Gar2chan 05:06, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed the empty photo caption since it had been there for a while. It would be nice if someone has a new photo or could put up the old one with a suitably bot-compliant copyright statement. Vuori 10:18, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm Japanese and I practice Kyudo.(Sorry,I cannot understand English well...) I read this page,and I discovered some mistakes.For example,"Seisha seichu(正射正中、正=correct 射=Asibumi-Zanshin 中=hit)" is not populer Kotowaza(Japanese proverb).Usually,Japanese people using "Seisha hitchu(正射必中、必=necessarily)"

[edit] Macrons?

Should this not be moved to Kyūdo? LordAmeth 19:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typical Kyudo Session

Going to add a section describing a typical practice session. There's a blurb about it stuck in the Kyudo Equipment section (The kyudo archer will typically begin a practice session by shooting at a straw target (makiwara) at very close range (about seven feet, or the length of the archer's strung yumi when held horizontally from the centerline of his body). Because the target is so close and the shot most certainly will hit, the archer can concentrate on refining his technique rather than on worrying about where the arrow will go.)

I Would rather see here a clarification of what school of kyudo. I have practised kyudo for just a few years, but long enough to say that your "typical" session has little to do with what I see more than once a week (not in Japan though). Perhaps this is not typical "kyudo" although it may be typical "some-ryu kyudo". Also ommitting rei from beginning of practice session might be considered even offensive by someSimohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's see about getting some pictures of the different yugake and the differences in the grasp. Also need to add the makiwara arrow to the equipment, though I'm not sure what it's official name is, we just call it the makiwara arrow. Zarcath 02:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The Hoff book just calls it the makiwara arrow too. Vuori 21:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC) Makiwara ya means an arrow used to shoot a wrapped straw [target].

True - the target is called "Makiwara" the arrow to shoot makiwara is called "Makiwara ya" which translates to -of course- makiwara arrowSimohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I expanded on some of the yugake section. I wanted to check with you guys first before I added this in. My sensei has said that in the old days, practitioners never shared their gloves with any other shooters and never showed their knock grove because it would give away their shooting technique. Other then our club gloves, students with their own gloves don't let others use them. Zarcath 13:16, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The glove obviously should fit perfectly. A good glove is tailor made for a single person made according to measures of each finger and different parts of palm and wrist. A cheap glove is chosen from the stock according to the same measures. Therefor an experienced shooter would not use another glove nor would it make sense to lend your own to someone else. Also a glove shows one's skill level and shooting technique flaws by the way it wears. Therefor is traditional not to let others apart from your teacher to look closely at your glove.Simohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for "History" section

It would be great if someone could write a section on the history and development of kyudo. I was particularly curious how long the name kyudo has been in use, and whether it was preceded by "kyujutsu", or was called something different. Also, is there a form of kyudo anyone practices that is still considered "koryu".Bradford44 16:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Heki-ryu at least has unbroken line of masters, with Insai-ha brach dating back to the teacher of the Shogun Tokugawa Iyeasu. Also Heki-ryu Insai-ha is today taught using texts from the 17th century combined with modern teaching.Simohell 22:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kyūdō in Popular Culture

When making additions to Kyūdō in Popular Culture, please add if the character is a practitioner of kyudo or not and follow the format already provided! In the future if new pop culture notes are added, the person may not be a practitioner, it could be a news story or new style or movement.

Ishida from Bleach At first glance I thought Ishida from Bleach was a Kyudo practitioner, but I'm not sure I would classify him as such. Does any japanese with a bow automatically make them a kyudo practitioner? Ishida uses his bow in his RIGHT hand (I spoke with my sensei and she said all practioners she knows of shoot LEFT HAND) and his form does not follow any conventional style. I know it's fantasy anime but I would describe him as having his own bow style that is not related to Kyudo at all. Does anyone agree/disagree? I think it would be terrible if new students came in with the wrong pre-conception.Zarcath 12:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

if it was not japanese language version, maybe the image was mirrored to match western way of reading from left to right, Japanese comics are read from right to left, and therefor sometimes mirrored for the english or other western editions. In kyudo there is no shooting with bow in your right hand.
It is the original japanese version that he is shooting left handed. I'm going to remove him from the list. Zarcath 07:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone edited the Kyudo page (rather poorly) inserting an inuyasha reference seemingly willy nilly. I fixed it so it wasn't as obnoxious. Zarcath 01:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The section 'Kyudo in popular culture' uses the term kyudo in rather relaxed way. Referring to battlefield archery I think it would be more appropriate to use the term kyujutsu. In kyudo the purpose is more or less to shoot a perfect shot. On the battle field the purpose is just to simply win the battle (which of course requires for an archer to master his weapon). There are a number of other appearances of kyujutsu in popular culture, and some that refer to the art in a bit more focus. These however are not kyudo as such.

  • Manga Lone Wolf and Cub story 71 The Kyushu Road, Kazuo Koike and Gosuki Kojima. A duel between a swordsman and an archer.
  • Movie Ran, Akira Kurosawa (1985). Shows shooting both on horse and on foot.
  • Movie Kumonosu jo by Akira Kurosawa (1957) [aka Cobweb Castle, Throne of Blood...]

Simohell 11:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

For above mentioned reasons I decided to remove some references to popular culture. For those with an opportunity please check this with the anime/manga references. If it aims to kill it is not kyudo. It may be kyujutsu and a separate list might be added, since there is an obvious historical connection. Simohell 20:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kyudo not Kyūdō in the title

LordAmeth touched on this briefly above, but I will expand on it. According to WP:MOS-JP:

Article titles should use macrons as specified for body text except in cases where the macronless spelling is in common usage in English-speaking countries (e.g., Tokyo, Osaka, Sumo and Shinto, instead of Tōkyō, Ōsaka, Sumō and Shintō.)

Outside of this page and Japanese/English dictionaries, I have never seen kyudo spelled as kyūdo or kyūdō. Even the All Nippon Kyudo Federation uses kyudo exclusively on the English version of their website. Unless someone can give me a good reason why this page should continue to violate the style manual, I am going to rename the page to Kyudo and switch the redirects. Mordrid52 19:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Japanese people often don't care to a use proper transcription so this is not an argument. And i am not aware that Kyūdō would be a so common word in english as Tokyo is. I think the current spelling is correct according to the rule you cite. About what LordAmeth said, he wanted to move Kyudo to Kyūdo. Perhaps someone knowing japanese well enough could enlighten us to know if the last o is long or not. Med 20:24, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Typing "kyudo" is by far easier than typing "kyūdō" which I always have to do by copy pasting from existing articles. Also many fonts or especially old printing machines don't have the proper letters. There are also different methods of translitterating Japanese to western alphabet. In some occations, such as Japanese Budo Association Budo Charter (http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkou/html_1/mainenglish.html) ZNKR is written with "Kyūdō". None of these are however the "official word" because the official word is not written with western alphabet. In my mothertongue the official recommended method is to translitterate with ū and ō so there is no question. It's best of course to follow English Wikipedia's reommendation. And yes there is always an ō in dō, if such translitteration method is used (jūdō, kendō, kyūdō, karatedō, budō　etc.). Mixing different methods is I think a bad idea. Simohell 20:47, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Not even the word "kyudo" is in common use in the English language - therefore a particular way of writing it cannot be in common use either. Most people, even those with passing familiarity with the martial arts, have no idea what kyūdō is. This is unlike judo or kendo, which are in common use, and therefore are written without macrons on wikipedia (on the other hand, karatedō and budō should be written with macrons). Further, ease of editing articles is never a good reason to pick between alternatives. The familiarity of the names of two major Japanese cities, the name of the Japanese national sport, and the name of one of the six or so major religions on Earth are incomparable to kyūdō, which to non-martial artists would be considered an obscure martial art. In fact, the two Japanese cities cited in the rule are two of only four Japanese cities in existence that WP:MOS-JP#Body text #9 ever permits to be written without macrons.
Additionally, the rule cited would only apply to the article title. Every use of the word "kyudo" in the article body should undisputably still be written as "kyūdō", according to WP:MOS#Body text. Note also that it has been the practice on wikipedia for the "body text" rule to be read in conjunction with the article title rule, such that the rule for article titles essentially becomes simply that: loanwords get no macrons, all other words get macrons. This represents a transition from a few years ago, when macrons were disallowed in article titles. With more sophisticated web browsers, what was previously a software issue no longer is a problem. As such, wikipedia appears to increasingly prefer that special characters (such as macrons, or accents) be used whenever appropriate.
In conclusion, the rule, which is not inconsistent, is generally that all Japanese words get macrons for double-vowels every time they appear (even in titles), except when they are in extremely common use in the English language or could be considered loanwords (such as the capital city, national sport, etc...), in which case they never get macrons. Kyūdō does not fall into that extremely small category, and thus should remain macronned. Bradford44 13:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Five-Fingered glove?

I made some major edits on the article (Mostly to include the Japanese side of the art... which wasn't really here... and I thought that was kinda wierd :D), but the article specifically stated a "5-fingered glove" which I've never seen nor heard of... No one has ever mentioned a "Gogake" in my dojo, nor have I ever laid eyes on one... No one on line sells one... and it seems that if you had a Gogake, you couldn't hold your otoya during the firing procedure (As you would also be looping your thumb under your... pinky... which, trying it while typing this article, almost cramps my hand :D)... I chalked it up as an error and deleted it when I rewrote the section on yugake... If I'm in error (And I could very much be!), please accept my apologies and replace the portion under "gogake"... :D

I also have a derth of photos which I'll upload to populate the article with as soon as I reach 10 edits and get auto-whatchamacallited... Aabh (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so now I've talked to Sensei and I found out a lot more about the "Morogake", I changed the article to reflect the Morogake, but Sensei indicated that there were two types of Morogake, one with a hard thumb, used in Dojo, and one with a soft thumb, used for Yubasake (sp? Sensei talks to me at high-speed Japanese because he wants me to really sharpen my skill... but unfortunately that just means I mis-hear new words a lot...), horseback archery, the soft thumb being needed to allow the rider to also grasp the reins. We are gathering enough information now that I'm starting to think the article needs to be split out into smaller articles... Aabh (talk) 15:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citing sources

Okay, so while I'm at it, I'm really new to Wikipedia... how do I cite "My Sensei" as a source? I mean, I hate to say this, but my sensei (As I'm sure many of your sensei's are) is a deep well of knowledge... He's pretty high ranking... I kinda think that might qualify him as a source... I would like to kill off the "This article doesn't cite sources" tag... but how do I do that? Aabh (talk) 15:37, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately citing an individual is not easy if at all possible. Sources need to be things someone else can look up, if he has written a book the that can be cited but it is not possible to someone to confirm things by going & asking him. If you read WP:Reliable Sources then it will give you an idea to the kind of sources that need to be used. --Nate1481(t/c) 20:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Nate, but I do believe we have a larger problem that may need to be addressed by the community at large... because I clicked on a few martial arts pages at random and all of them have the notice. Which implies to me that no martial arts page will ever lose that tag. If Wikipedia ever decides to purge the "Non-Cited" pages, all martial arts (Or at least most of them) will be lost. We all learn in-dojo... all data is handed down during our tea breaks or during training... history is conveyed this way... It's really going to be an issue... This may be something all of us budoka may have to take up with Wikipedia... Aabh (talk) 15:25, 31 May 2008 (UTC)